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creed3020
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join:2006-04-26
Kitchener, ON

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Re: CRTC Wholesale hearing

Bibic "We are the retail loser" [paraphrase] and had to strike up details on the side because CBB rates were so out to lunch, and losing more market share to cable was not acceptable. We want the cash cow that wholesale is for us.[/paraphrase]
lowping
join:2013-08-04

lowping to mazhurg

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said by mazhurg:

Funny for bell to use the Atlantic duopoly as a healthy competitive field.... With the highest prices in Canada!

»www.cbc.ca/news2/interac ··· oadband/

Those package aren't even equivalent.
LastDon
join:2002-08-13

1 edit

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I don't even know why others besides the incumbents even show up to these meetings.

It is like the incumbents and the crtc are enjoying a cup of tea and crackers together talking about how they can all screw customers and independent internet providers one at a time.

I don't even understand how bell/rogers/etc etc can even complain.. honestly.. they are making more money BY allowing access as Indeis have to pay them... they are probably making more money this way , than by signing up people.

ridiculous

we need to come up with a new name for the CRTC, or mandate, because fighting for consumers is not what they do
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
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join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to HeadSpinning

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said by HeadSpinning:

said by MaynardKrebs:

No access is removed. Nobody sane will expect the indies (jointly or severally) to replicate the last mile, even if in aggregate they have 25% market share.

No, the access lines may or may not be removed - but Bell will have the freedom to price those access lines in to oblivion, which is the same.

You miss my point.

The pricing regime will have to change from one of filing tariff requests by in the indumbents to a more - looking for the right word - maintenance approach. ie. once the magic 25% share is reached, prices don't drop/increase except for the factors I mentioned before.

Also what doesn't change is the incumbent obligation to provide service. None of this railway-style abandonment of lines.

Say you have a manufacturing plant as a customer in the boonies. It's the only customer for miles. You get your ethernet/fiber 'last mile' from Bell at a rate. Time goes by and in 5 years the rate changes based on inflation/Moore's Law/ etc.. but not on any change in the cost of the fiber itself. It's been laid, costed, amortized, and will last 50 years.

All this requires a change of thinking by the CRTC. Bell's getting more than adequately compensated in this scenario for what they provide (the physical connectivity). CRTC needs to recognize that in scenarios like this there's not place for 'excess rent' by Bell to cover 'lost profits' because you're providing the logical connectivity. They continually mix these two concepts up and somehow feel that the indumbents *deserve* excess rents for profits they never earned.

creed3020
Premium Member
join:2006-04-26
Kitchener, ON

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Question about Phase II costing and how the Indies are calling BS on it incoming.

Bell: "We support the #### policy and applaud CRTC for this."
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to Dcite

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said by Dcite:

Bell says Independent ISPs don't operate in Atlantic Canada.. is there even support for such a thing? Does Bell Alliant do wholesale?

They aren't required to wholesale because it's FTTP.
CRTC ruled on that in their so-called "Next-Gen networks" hearings 5 years ago, despite FTTP having been in existence in one form or another for 30 years at that time.

CRTC - Always at the cutting edge of obsolescence
MaynardKrebs

MaynardKrebs to LastDon

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to LastDon
said by LastDon:

I don't even know why others besides the incumbents even show up to these meetings.

It is like the incumbents and the crtc are enjoying a cup of tea and crackers together talking about how they can all screw customers and independent internet providers one at a time.

I don't even understand how bell/rogers/etc etc can even complain.. honestly.. they are making more money BY allowing access as Indeis have to pay them... they are probably making more money this way , than by signing up people.

ridiculous

we need to come up with a new name for the CRTC, or mandate, because fighting for consumers is now what they do

The ONLY place you will find anything approximating the truth from the indumbents is in their financial reports and analyst conference calls.

Why?

Because they are under pain of personal criminal penalties if they lie in those financial statements or mislead. They are under no such pain at a CRTC hearing. I didn't hear Mirko get *sworn-in* before he gave testimony today. Did you?
MaynardKrebs

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If Bell gets 40% markup on FTTP, the resulting indie retail price will be 25%-30% higher than Bell's retail price.

That's what 'competition' looks like in Bell's viewpoint.

creed3020
Premium Member
join:2006-04-26
Kitchener, ON

creed3020

Premium Member

They said they have 40% on FTTN and would want even higher for FTTP. They didn't give a number but yikes...!
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

I've said this for years,
»Re: What are your impressions on how the CRTC handled Bell?
»Re: UBB round 2 at the CRTC

and JF mentioned it in his presentation on Monday, we need to see the bits flowing though Bell's network - to see how various boxes are doing 'double-duty' and being costed in twice or more.

Maybe we need to get Obama to put "boots on the ground" in Bell's network centres/CO's to see what's going on.
Harper sure as hell won't do it.
Neither will Blais.

andyb
Premium Member
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario

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Google was his best example? What a useless fuck
HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet
join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON

2 recommendations

HeadSpinning to MaynardKrebs

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said by MaynardKrebs:

You miss my point.

You miss my point. Competitors have no bargaining power with Bell. With price forbearance, Bell can dictate to us what they're going to charge. Just because they price the unbundled loop out of our price range for earning a decent margin once we bundle it with our services and equipment, doesn't mean the customer won't buy it at all - they may just chose to buy a bundled service from Bell instead.

Bell is happy to negotiate prices with Telus, MTSA, etc., as they have "home provinces" that have services that Bell wants fair treatment on in return. We have nothing to offer Bell, other than their desire for us to go away and die, so they can get more retail customers.

creed3020
Premium Member
join:2006-04-26
Kitchener, ON

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Bibic " We are on the cusp of being the envy of the world"

Oh shit we're screwed.
creed3020

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Molnar is really laying on the sarcasm about how much Bell values their wholesale customers as "important customers".

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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join:2006-08-30
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said by lowping:

said by HeadSpinning:

FTTH is a complete ground up build? I call BS on that. They're hanging on existing strand, using existing ROWs and ducts. They also have the profit machine of legacy networks supporting the build.

It depends if the area is new or not I guess.

New areas are gravy, the telcos will make a deal with the developer to put in the wires for excusivity.

diskace
Retired
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join:2002-02-21

diskace

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this part will be interesting

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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join:2006-08-30
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elwoodblues to LastDon

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Because they want it all. They're so blinded by their greed, they can't see the forest for the trees.

Microsoft figured out a long time ago, sell the OS to the OEM's (dirt cheap compared to retail), and they have zero costs, no support, no packaging costs nothing.
lowping
join:2013-08-04

lowping to elwoodblues

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to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:

said by lowping:

said by HeadSpinning:

FTTH is a complete ground up build? I call BS on that. They're hanging on existing strand, using existing ROWs and ducts. They also have the profit machine of legacy networks supporting the build.

It depends if the area is new or not I guess.

New areas are gravy, the telcos will make a deal with the developer to put in the wires for excusivity.

I don't think it's exclusive, it's not a mass building app/condo.
HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet
join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON

HeadSpinning to elwoodblues

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said by elwoodblues:

New areas are gravy, the telcos will make a deal with the developer to put in the wires for excusivity.

That has not been our experience. Bell tries to get developers to PAY to service the new developments. They usually lose that argument when we offer to do it for free.

mazhurg
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join:2004-05-02
Brighton, ON

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Oh yes, the size argument... (while disreguarding that 80% of the population is really not that sparse).
mazhurg

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HSA

The short answer: No

The long answer: no

The really long answer.. NO!
resa1983
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join:2008-03-10
North York, ON

resa1983 to HeadSpinning

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said by HeadSpinning:

said by elwoodblues:

New areas are gravy, the telcos will make a deal with the developer to put in the wires for excusivity.

That has not been our experience. Bell tries to get developers to PAY to service the new developments. They usually lose that argument when we offer to do it for free.

And when they miss the installation window because they're not paying attention to new builds, runs to the CRTC crying, demanding fair treatment to get into said building, despite it being too late in the build, and causing damage to now-finished units.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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i can't stream at work and too busy to bother doing it on the phone. i was reading in teh Globe how Fibic says they'll stop all deployment of Fibre if they are forced to open access.

Yeah right, and teh Cableco's will keep moving forward making Bell as relevant as when they had plain old DSl at "up to" 5/1.
HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet
join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON

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said by resa1983:

And when they miss the installation window because they're not paying attention to new builds, runs to the CRTC crying, demanding fair treatment to get into said building, despite it being too late in the build, and causing damage to now-finished units.

I was referring to subdivision developments, not MDUs.

For MDUs the developer should place a joint use communications duct to the property line for entrance in to the building, then place flex conduits from the riser closets to each individual unit's utility room. This is NOT a huge investment for the developer. Future proofs the building. Problem solved.

creed3020
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join:2006-04-26
Kitchener, ON

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Quebecor is up to bat
creed3020

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Why is is unfair that TPIA clients on Videotron network use twice as much as retail clients when TPIA is charged CBB rates....?

This presentation is very heavy handed towards getting rid of wholesale, as the presentation started with an analogy that building out a network is the only way to benefit Canadian consumers.

Even the verbs being used are very strong: attack, abuse, endanger, ...

diskace
Retired
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join:2002-02-21

diskace to creed3020

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Cable companies are against TPIA since forever. However, they do get paid back huge amount of money. The difference is that they can charge more vs under the current regime. Electronic Box and other operators bring competition and innovation into the market.
HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet
join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON

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HeadSpinning to creed3020

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said by creed3020:

Why is is unfair that TPIA clients on Videotron network use twice as much as retail clients when TPIA is charged CBB rates....?

This presentation is very heavy handed towards getting rid of wholesale, as the presentation started with an analogy that building out a network is the only way to benefit Canadian consumers.

Even the verbs being used are very strong: attack, abuse, endanger, ...

Their entire argument seems to be based on the false premise that the use of the capacity is unfair despite the fact that it is being handsomely paid for. Arrogant bunch of sleazebags.

creed3020
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Kitchener, ON

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Wow latest gem is that not just that TPIA is effectively non-innovative and offers nothing new, but rather completely undermines the existence of the incumbents.

The CRTC needs to separate the wheat from the chaff here and see that this is a bunch of fud. Just compare the pricing and packages, from wholesale to retail. The difference is very clear.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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join:2006-08-30
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elwoodblues

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said by creed3020:

. Just compare the pricing and packages, from wholesale to retail. The difference is very clear.

Yes and no, one could argue that the incumbents are the "premium" brand , while the TPIA providers are just the discount one. Which is essentially what they arguing.

Makes me wonder if it's such an issue why do they allow MVNO's on their cell network?