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MadCow
@192.222.255.x

MadCow to JMJimmy

Anon

to JMJimmy

Re: Quadruple Dipping

said by JMJimmy:

That's just the first gouge though I'm sure they're quadruple dipping in some other way that I can't see with the macro data available. Heck, spotting the double tax grab (26.5% btw) was almost a fluke, it's buried as a note in their yearly earnings report as a non-standard accounting practice.

Well there are three other ways they are screwing with the costs:

1) This one is sort of by mandate by the CRTC itself: They sell symmetrical bandwidth (in 100Mbps blocks), but unlike DSL, the upload is not free for cable, in theory, if properly accounted, it costs the exact same as the download and so doubles the price of the CBB. The issue is that its unrealistic to expect usage to be actually symmetrical, so the upload costs ends up used at less than 20% capacity and is overcharged 5 to 10 fold.

2) This one is worse: In the last Videotron cost report to the CRTC (the one that increased the CBB costs retroactively), I noticed they used a strange (but hidden) number called something like "upstream to downstream bandwidth allocation ratio constant". I don't remember the exact wording, but that's what it meant. The thing is, its not a constant... this is a managed value, which the cable operator sets to approximately represent actual upstream to downstream usage of their clients. So their cost analysis is calculating the cost in terms of node splits created by passing a full duplex 100Mbps used at 100%, through a network that's configured to have 90% of its bandwidth in downstream and 10% of its bandwidth in upstream. This is like saying how much would it cost if I configured my network to be as inefficient as possible regarding the traffic pattern. Obviously if traffic were actually 100Mbps in both direction, then 50% of the bandwidth would be allocated for the upstream and 50% for the downstream. The proper way to do the cost analysis is to consider bandwidth as bandwidth and assume the network is configured properly, so what you do is calculate the cost for 200Mbps (disregarding direction) and assume all the bandwidth is available for those 200Mbps. In other words, in reality, upstream is exactly the same cost as downstream in a properly configure cable network (in practice its actually much less expensive because of point #1). This is another 10 fold increase on the cost of upstream, combined with #1 it means upstream cost is overstated by 50 to 100 fold.

3) This is more a corollary to point #2: When Videotron did their last cost analysis to increase the cost of CBB, they did it using their current network up/down ratio at the time, and there was a single QAM allocated on upstream then. But right after the new costs were approved by the CRTC, they actually doubled the upstream allocation (when they increase the upstream to 10Mbps on the higher tiers) to two QAMs. Meaning if they used this new 'constant' in the same cost report that they got through the CRTC, the costs would have been significantly reduced just a month after they were approved by the CRTC. In other words the whole report was out of date in a mater of days.

Frankly, I'm disappointed that none of the IISPs or CNOC figured point #2 from the cost reports for cable operators. It so blatantly wrong to calculate upstream costs the way they did. IMO, if cable CBB rates were properly priced, it would be much lower than the CBB rates of DSL. I would suggest IISPs look into this... If you can prove they falsified their costs, then you might be able to get a retroactive rate reduction that could bring in many millions of $.
HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet
join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON

HeadSpinning to resa1983

Member

to resa1983

Re: CRTC Wholesale hearing

Is Vmedia seriously asking for the ability to put content caches in the incument's network?

andyb
Premium Member
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario

andyb

Premium Member

Sounds like it.Caches with vlan
Marcer
Premium Member
join:2007-07-08
Hamilton, ON

Marcer to MadCow

Premium Member

to MadCow

Re: Quadruple Dipping

said by MadCow :

In other words, in reality, upstream is exactly the same cost as downstream in a properly configure cable network

In other words, in reality, you're not familiar with how HFC networks have actually been designed/built/deployed/configured

creed3020
Premium Member
join:2006-04-26
Kitchener, ON

creed3020 to resa1983

Premium Member

to resa1983

Re: CRTC Wholesale hearing

MTS is against wholesale access to FTTP in the residential market, they are standing with the national incumbents whereas they are usually more neutral.

andyb
Premium Member
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario

andyb to resa1983

Premium Member

to resa1983
Why are people buying speeds around 25mb? Look at the prices idiots.God people are dumb
andyb

andyb to creed3020

Premium Member

to creed3020
said by creed3020:

MTS is against wholesale access to FTTP in the residential market, they are standing with the national incumbents whereas they are usually more neutral.

As long as they are using something(ie:ULL) they want it to stay the same.If they dont use they dont care
andyb

andyb to resa1983

Premium Member

to resa1983
yesterday morning
»www.cpac.ca/en/programs/ ··· 35980001

afternoon
»www.cpac.ca/en/programs/ ··· 35980041
MadCow
join:2014-11-28

MadCow to Marcer

Member

to Marcer

Re: Quadruple Dipping

said by Marcer:

said by MadCow :

In other words, in reality, upstream is exactly the same cost as downstream in a properly configure cable network

In other words, in reality, you're not familiar with how HFC networks have actually been designed/built/deployed/configured

I know that in reality more bandwidth is allocated for the downstream than the upstream, but that's because people don't use upstream as much as the downstream. Its configured to match actual typical usage, or else its just inefficient by design. If you do a cost analysis for symmetrical bandwidth through a network configured for allocating 90% of the bandwidth in downstream, then you are not matching how the network would be configured for the use case you are analyzing. If your bandwidth were symmetrical, then you would allocated half the cable bandwidth for the upstream and the other half to the downstream.

The point though is that this up/down allocation ratio is a value that can and is changed by the cable operator as traffic patterns change (long term). And in their cost studies they pretend this is a constant that does not ever change. And then they actually changed it right after the cost report when they added a QAM on the upstream for the 10Mbps upstream upgrade.
niveous
join:2008-08-16
Toronto, ON

niveous to resa1983

Member

to resa1983

Re: CRTC Wholesale hearing

City of Calgary is sounding good thus far.
InvalidError
join:2008-02-03

InvalidError to MadCow

Member

to MadCow

Re: Quadruple Dipping

said by MadCow:

The point though is that this up/down allocation ratio is a value that can and is changed by the cable operator as traffic patterns change (long term).

Cable operators cannot change this at will since the limits are effectively hard-wired in the DOCSIS spec in the form of the standard 45MHz return band split.

Cable companies cannot make changes when almost no equipment to accommodate those changes exist and they cannot change the ratio of up/down on a whim either since that requires replacing two-way amplifiers, HFC transceivers and probably a few more components.

If cable companies waste resources on under-used upload capacity, it increases their overall costs for no benefit, so they cannot increase it on a whim even if they could either.
HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet
join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON

HeadSpinning to niveous

Member

to niveous

Re: CRTC Wholesale hearing

said by niveous:

City of Calgary is sounding good thus far.

I'm blown away by the fact that the commissioners had no idea that despite access to support structures being mandated, access is often denied due to either real or imaginary capacity limits.
niveous
join:2008-08-16
Toronto, ON

niveous to resa1983

Member

to resa1983
One power line, one water pipe, one gas pipe, "100" fibre runs?

Sigh :/
MadCow
join:2014-11-28

MadCow to InvalidError

Member

to InvalidError

Re: Quadruple Dipping

They can't change it at a whim, but it is essentially configured to match usage patterns. If you are doing a case study for the cost of symmetrical 100Mbps you should assume that if it ended up being used like that, the equipment would eventually be designed for it (doesn't DOCSIS 3.1 increase the upload limits and capacities for that very reason?). You would at least increase the upload ratio to the maximum your equipment permits at some point. In reality they will never need to do this, because no IISPs will ever actually use more than 20% of their upload capacity (and I suspect its even closer to 10% usage). Its an impossible use case to begin with, so why limit it by constraints that are simply reflections of actual current typical usage.

If it is actually nearly a constant like you seem to say (even though it was changed), then its a beautiful loophole for the cable operators... You over cost IISPs for upstream that will never be used, but that must be bought in order to get the downstream they need.
Bear1974
join:2014-11-29
Surrey, BC

2 recommendations

Bear1974 to niveous

Member

to niveous

Re: CRTC Wholesale hearing

I work with one of the TPIA companies that is part of CNOC. I formerly worked with one of the incumbents providing direct support to the TPIA providers. I have a unique view having been involved in nearly all stages of the process between the providers and the incumbents. Working directly with a company that is mandated to provide TPIA services I can honestly say regulated services is needed to ensure a healthy competitive environment and provide consumers with choices. The amount of income these companies receive from wholesale services are typically quite substantial, although it is viewed negatively and competition. These incumbents in my personal opinion are providing a absolute minimum level of support in comparison to their own retail customers. CNOC and many TPIA providers have been fighting for the consumers to provide a reliable Internet service and level of support your deserve. For those that are interested in CNOC's 76 page filing to the CRTC this is available at »openmedia.ca/sites/openm ··· CRTC.pdf

Jay_P
join:2005-12-12
Montreal, QC

Jay_P to fmradio68

Member

to fmradio68
said by fmradio68:

"Going back to Videotron's presentation where they said that they wanted speeds above 50Mbps foreborne ....."

Pardon my ignorance but can you explain what this means. Don't know what it means but doesn't sound good for TPIAs.

UBB costs are so high that TPIAs probably won't shed a tear if they had to stop at 50.

TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium Member
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON

TwiztedZero

Premium Member

said by Jay_P:

won't shed a tear if they had to stop at 50

Context ... can't infer what you're trying to say here.
HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet
join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON

HeadSpinning

Member

said by TwiztedZero:

Context ... can't infer what you're trying to say here.

There was talk at the hearings of not requiring the cable companies to provide speeds above 50 Megabits/Second to IISPs, based on the concept of symmetry with Bell, who currently does not have to offer those speeds to IISPs.

The point being made is that with the current UBB pricing, it would cost too much to offer those speeds anyways, so it isn't a big deal - for now.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to HeadSpinning

Premium Member

to HeadSpinning
said by HeadSpinning:

said by niveous:

City of Calgary is sounding good thus far.

I'm blown away by the fact that the commissioners had no idea that despite access to support structures being mandated, access is often denied due to either real or imaginary capacity limits.

I'm not surprised at all.

None of them have been involved on the business side in that sort of capacity. Most of them have only been lawyers. Most of them wouldn't know how to plug in an ethernet cable even if there was a big flashing sign that said, "Ethernet cable goes here".

XNemesis
join:2002-11-16
Kitchener, ON

XNemesis to resa1983

Member

to resa1983
Does anyone ever challenge the CRTC members on their lack of knowledge in these areas?

TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium Member
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON

TwiztedZero

Premium Member

Guys FIREWORKS!!!

andyb
Premium Member
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario

andyb

Premium Member

said by v6moment :

said by andyb:

Why are people buying speeds around 25mb? Look at the prices idiots.God people are dumb

Without context the question doesn't make sense. As opposed to what else?

The ISP's were all saying there is little uptake of speeds beyond 25mb
jumpingryan
join:2008-07-27
Pembroke, ON

jumpingryan to niveous

Member

to niveous
said by niveous:

One power line, one water pipe, one gas pipe, "100" fibre runs?

Sigh :/

I agree totally. Just run a fibre line, and then you get to pick the "supplier".
jumpingryan

jumpingryan to XNemesis

Member

to XNemesis
said by XNemesis:

Does anyone ever challenge the CRTC members on their lack of knowledge in these areas?

I don't think anybody challenges the CRTC, except Harper when he said it would overrule them regarding the UBB charges/changes the incumbents wanted a few years ago that the CRTC seemed to endorse for a short time...

Other than that, they seem to be a law unto themselves and above questioning.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to XNemesis

Premium Member

to XNemesis
said by XNemesis:

Does anyone ever challenge the CRTC members on their lack of knowledge in these areas?

We should start a game show called "Dunk Tank".
CRTC commissioners are place on chair over vats of boiling oil/water and asked simple technical questions - like:
- how many bits in a byte
- how many bytes in an average Netflix movie transmission
- how many average movies does it take to blow through an indumbent cap
- how many bytes in a streamed 4K movie
- how many 4k movies does it take to blow through an indumbent cap
- why can't indumbents stop lying
- etc....

Correct answers move them on to the next round. Incorrect answers turn them into fondue meat.
fmradio68
join:2013-07-05
Montreal, QC

fmradio68 to Guspaz

Member

to Guspaz
Thanks for the explanation.

Checking Ebox DSL 50/10 and Cable 60/10 are pretty much identical in pricing.

So Bell wants 50/50 and faster not to be regulated while Videotron says there is no distinction between delivery and they should have their 50+ also exempt from wholesale pricing.

As much as I don't like Bell, 50/50 is not the same as 50/10 and 50/10 is already regulated so what is Videotron's point?

Or am I missing something or understanding this wrong?

XNemesis
join:2002-11-16
Kitchener, ON

XNemesis to MaynardKrebs

Member

to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

said by XNemesis:

Does anyone ever challenge the CRTC members on their lack of knowledge in these areas?

We should start a game show called "Dunk Tank".
CRTC commissioners are place on chair over vats of boiling oil/water and asked simple technical questions - like:
- how many bits in a byte
- how many bytes in an average Netflix movie transmission
- how many average movies does it take to blow through an indumbent cap
- how many bytes in a streamed 4K movie
- how many 4k movies does it take to blow through an indumbent cap
- why can't indumbents stop lying
- etc....

Correct answers move them on to the next round. Incorrect answers turn them into fondue meat.

I would TOTALLY Pay to see that show. Awesomesauce

Mork
@184.162.4.x

Mork to MaynardKrebs

Anon

to MaynardKrebs
@MaynardKrebs,
You would like ex-commissioner Denton's blog posts covering these hearings. He has a bunch of short posts up. I think my fav so far (and what fits in with what you stated above) would be this one:
»tmdenton.com/index.php/e ··· hearings
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

4 edits

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

You're a little late to the party.
Denton WAS part of the problem while he was a commissioner.
You're reading his post-CRTC mea culpa without the context of time..

See some of my stuff going back 5 years or so and then tell ask yourself where he was during that time period.

Commissioners are ignorant of the underpinnings of networking
»Re: Day 2 of CRTC hearing now live

...one reason alone that the ITMP is applied to the independent ISP traffic - because they are a competitor of Bell.
»What the CTRC need to hear this week

All CRTC commissioners must take and pass (95%+) a technical knowledge test
»Re: CRTC Hearing - Day 4

Konrad to Rogers: I didn't have an appreciation of your upload problems until today
»Re: CRTC Hearing - Day 6 - The Last Day

....by Konrad's warped thinking we are really just Bell customers
»Just In - Gotta love the Privacy Commissioner

My eyes are rolling like matter around the event horizon of a black hole at the thought of this.
»Re: UBB round 2 at the CRTC

»Re: Oct 21 2009 CRTC Ruling - Discuss!!!

»Re: UBB round 2 at the CRTC

»Re: UBB round 2 at the CRTC

Konrad von Finckenstein - detached from reality?*
»Konrad von Finckenstein - detached from reality?*

»Re: Cable wholesale to be the exact same as DSL wholesale?

»Re: ADSL-CO hearings *DAY 2* Starring JFMezei

»A fun read

»Re: The need for higher usage limits

»Re: ADSL-CO Hearing - The Aftermath

»Re: ADSL-CO Hearing - The Aftermath

»Re: Cable TPIA follow up from ADSL-CO: Fixed IP addresses

»Re: The Problems with Gov't & Telecom Thread

»Re: CNOC: Proceedings on ILEC and Cable Carrier Cost Studies

»Re: A motion for fairness

»Re: Bell Canada Response to 2010-803

»Re: CRTC/CNOC 2010-803

»Re: CRTC/CNOC 2010-803

»Re: TSI Marc what are you doing for us?

»Re: Petition to disband CRTC

»Re: Michael Geist: Saving the Best for Last: Bell

»Re: Fourth Meeting: Media Coverage

It's high time for all testimony before the CRTC to be sworn under oath, with severe penalties for false/misleading statements.
»Re: Bell Canada's financials and UBB

»Re: 2011-77 UBB consultation: March 28 submissions

All the more reason for the CRTC (or one of the following Industry Canada departments) to have mandatory unannounced technical audit powers.
»Re: Bell cheating?

….but due to his lack of technical knowledge Bell is walking all over him.
»Re: Should we be skeptical about this week's CRTC hearings?

The technical ignorance of the Commissioners is still astounding.
»Re: CRTC 2011-77 Public Hearings, Day 3, Play-by-Play

The intentionally oblivious Katz needs to read everything linked to here:
»CRTC 2011-77 Public Hearings, Day 3, Play-by-Play

We've been at this shit for pushing 3, or is it 4 years now and they still don't understand a fucking thing.
»CRTC 2011-77 Public Hearings, Day 3, Play-by-Play

the Commission must throw caution to the winds and rule more favourably on the side of more effective competition
»2011-77 proposed rebuttal statement

It's high time for all testimony before the CRTC to be sworn under oath, with severe penalties for false/misleading statements.
»Re: Bell Canada's financials and UBB

....For a period of two years, he hosted a radio show on CKDG-FM Montreal..." is the sum total of his technical qualifications to be a Commissioner.
»Re: So... What ever happened to UBB/AVP?

Enforcement? What enforcement?
»CRTC Sends Rogers Issue to Enforcement Division [21] comments

the "UBB crisis" was manufactured by the CRTC itself because of structural failings within the organization:
»Re: Konrad tells a joke

Like sending most of the commissioners to tech school...... maybe to a place that advertises courses on matchbooks?
»Re: A small job opening at the CRTC

"Give the Incumbents What They Want Act"
»Re: Feb 1 date is a go - no penality for mixed traffic (interim)

CRTC looking for comments on ####
»Re: CRTC looking for comments on ####

Does he know what GigaHurtz or Tetrahertz is?
»Re: [CRTC] New Chief Named.

I feel like Sherman & Peabody in the "Wayback Machine" when I read shit like this.....
»Re: The JF report -- CNOC's request to improve wholesale Quality

Where are the criminal penalties against the CEO's for "Crimes against the Consumer"?
»Re: Competition Bureau CRTC Filing: Church Report Should be Tossed as Junk

'Splains a lot about the past 6 years
»Re: 'Splains a lot about the past 6 years

where are the commensurate price drops
»Re: CRTC wholesale mobile wireless services hearings on now
HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet
join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON

HeadSpinning to resa1983

Member

to resa1983
OK, I call BS... David Watt from Rogers just said that a head end that has 200,000 homes has 200,000 miles of cable to do it. Sorry no. There's not a line from the head end to each home.