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DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS to nitzguy

to nitzguy

Re: [Serious] Catholic School prinicipal shuts down students' project on gay rights

said by nitzguy:

said by mr weather:

The Wynne government I don't think is prepared to handle the political shitstorm if they went down that road. At least not right now.

Martin Regg Cohn had a good column in today's Torstar about it being time to get rid of school board trustees. He touched on the Catholic board thing too.

When trustees lost their ability to actually set the mill rate when the provincial government 'Uploaded' education responsibility back to the province they basically lost their ability to do anything useful, but they tend to be the "fall guy" so to speak when cuts occur vs. blaming the ministry itself which tells each board what they're going to get each year.

Thank you, Mike Harris...

Gone
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join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone to DKS

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to DKS
said by DKS:

John Tory tried to win an election on expanded school funding to all religious schools. He lost hugely. Ontario will tolerate separate school funding.

All this demonstrates is that the average Ontarian is both ignorant and a hypocrite.
Gone

Gone to nitzguy

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to nitzguy
said by nitzguy:

When trustees lost their ability to actually set the mill rate when the provincial government 'Uploaded' education responsibility back to the province they basically lost their ability to do anything useful, but they tend to be the "fall guy" so to speak when cuts occur vs. blaming the ministry itself which tells each board what they're going to get each year.

And you will never see our current provincial government reform the education system by abolishing elected trustees and school boards for all of the same reasons why they created LHINs and the College of Trades. These bodies insulate the provincial government from direct accountability, even though the provincial government is the one who are directly calling and dictating the shots and responsible for the ramifications of them. When shit hits the fan, the province can convieniently blame the "local" authority for the failure rather than being on the hook for it themselves.
PX Eliezer1
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join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1 to nitzguy

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to nitzguy
said by nitzguy:

I conversely do not know a lot about the US Education system other than it seems "Public Schools" are the bottom of the barrel in the USA...regardless of where they are.

Maybe my view is incorrect?

Public schools might be poor, or average, or simply outstanding.

Some of that depends on where they are located, in terms of inner city, other urban area, suburban, or rural.

In most states the schools are heavily funded by local property taxes, and this tends to put poor urban areas at an additional disadvantage. Some of the states have set up what you guys would call equalization payments, to try to help the school districts that are at a financial disadvantage.

Keep in mind that the large majority of US students attend public schools, so the "barrel" is a pretty large one.

-----

Likewise there are big differences among the states.

New York State spends the most per pupil ($19,552), more than three times the per-student amount spent in Utah ($6,206), the last state on the list.

»www.washingtonpost.com/n ··· tudents/

OTOH Utah is a less diverse state ethnically....

-----

Canadian provinces are much closer to each other in school spending. The three territories however spend much more per student, not a surprise given the climate and geographic challenges.

PDF:
»www.ece.gov.nt.ca/files/ ··· 2014.pdf

Thane_Bitter
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Thane_Bitter to Styvas

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Buzz sorry that doesn't fly because as an educational organization they are required to follow guidelines set down by the province even if that curriculum clashes with their view of how the universe works.

Simply telling a student that certain rights and issues aren't acceptable because they could be inconvenient for her job as administrator isn't acceptable. She certainly gets paid well enough for the task and if fundamentalist radical catholic parents have an issue with it they can go off to the board and bitch, or even home school their children.

What we have here is yet another case of bending over to kiss the bums of a minority, the unusual part is its for a christian minority rather than some other group.

Styvas
Who are we? Forge FC!
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join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON

Styvas

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I'm quite certain the provincial curriculum guidelines don't specify the grade 6 topics acceptable for projects to be viewed by grade 4 students.
Styvas

Styvas

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Incidentally, almost 2/3rds of Ontarioans self-identify as Christian, of which almost half are Catholic. 31% meets the definition of minority, but that's some minority.

»en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ ··· _Ontario

Thane_Bitter
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Actually the topic of homosexuality was to have been introduced to kids in grade three, however when this change was introduced guess which religious organization had a hissy-fit.

I think we can agree that the overall subject falls into human rights, though the catholics might want disagree.

Xstar_Lumini
join:2008-12-14
CANADA

Xstar_Lumini to bt

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I have my kids in catholic school for the reason that I don't want garbage taught to them, I want them to grow up with morals, please don't brainwash my kids with gay dogma, and if you want freedom of speech go attend a public school.

horsey
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horsey to Styvas

Anon

to Styvas
said by Styvas:

Incidentally, almost 2/3rds of Ontarioans self-identify as Christian, of which almost half are Catholic. 31% meets the definition of minority, but that's some minority.

»en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ ··· _Ontario

Care to guess how many of them are gay or have loved ones that are

Styvas
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join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON

Styvas

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In this household, 100%. What's your point?
bt
join:2009-02-26
canada

1 recommendation

bt to Xstar_Lumini

Member

to Xstar_Lumini
said by Xstar_Lumini:

and if you want freedom of speech go attend a public school.

Sorry, but freedom of speech applies just as much to the publicly funded Catholic school system as it does to the Public school system in this province.

If you want to avoid that, go attend a fully private Catholic school and take your bigotry and false morals with you.

Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
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join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS

Anav

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said by bt:

said by Xstar_Lumini:

and if you want freedom of speech go attend a public school.

Sorry, but freedom of speech applies just as much to the publicly funded Catholic school system as it does to the Public school system in this province.

If you want to avoid that, go attend a fully private Catholic school and take your bigotry and false morals with you.

More to the point ...... if you dont believe that people are equal under our Charter and the Laws, then this country is not for you. Find one that is bass ackwards.

Styvas
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Hamilton, ON

Styvas to bt

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said by bt:

said by Xstar_Lumini:

and if you want freedom of speech go attend a public school.

Sorry, but freedom of speech applies just as much to the publicly funded Catholic school system as it does to the Public school system in this province.

Did you read any of this thread? The primary concern (which can be debated, but is legit) is that the subject matter (gays and gay slurs) was inappropriate for the age range of some who would see the project display. It's a rather subjective matter as to whether the idea that it is inappropriate is correct, but the primary issue was this. The gay rights issue, within a Catholic context, is not irrelevant, but was secondary to the decision by the school.

If you think this is a freedom of speech issue, then where would you draw the line with regards to the topics that these 12 year-olds would present to 9 or 10 year-olds?

If you want to avoid that, go attend a fully private Catholic school and take your bigotry and false morals with you.

Why do I have the suspicion that if this story had been identical but about a private Catholic school vetoing the project, you'd have been equally up in arms, railing on about the bigotry of the awful Catholics?
bt
join:2009-02-26
canada

bt

Member

I was responding specifically to Xstar_Lumini's comments of "if you want freedom of speech go attend a public school" and the sentiment that comment expressed - not the specific case that triggered this thread.

Thane_Bitter
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said by Xstar_Lumini:

I have my kids in catholic school for the reason that I don't want garbage taught to them, I want them to grow up with morals, please don't brainwash my kids with gay dogma, and if you want freedom of speech go attend a public school.

This has long ago been debunked, morality does not stem from religion.

Replace gay with black and you sound just like a southern white supremacist back in the 1960s - food for thought.

Styvas
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Hamilton, ON

Styvas

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Morality stems from humanity. It reflects the values that come from holding a worldview. Religion is one kind of world view. So some specific morals stem from religion. Other specific morals stem from humanism, or feminism, or being impoverished, or being wealthy, or being a minority, or whatever.

Thane_Bitter
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Thane_Bitter

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Christianity (and others) are morality inconsistent in their directives and teachings, the mixed message from it can be summarized as "your broken, love me or suffer forever, I can forgive you but perhaps I won't".

Styvas
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Hamilton, ON

Styvas

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Christians, and members of other religions, are not homogeneous in belief or application of belief, any more than feminists all hold the same beliefs, or Liberals all hold the same beliefs. At least Catholics are pretty much consistent in their doctrine, due to the highly structured nature of their religious tradition, and the top down approach to determining their beliefs.

But the cultural nature of Catholicism (and the cultural practice of baptizing one's children, even if the religion means nothing to you) makes it easy for people to call themselves Catholic, but neither hold any Catholic beliefs nor ever darken the door of a Catholic church. But to the outside observer they are Catholics, so it looks like there is enormous diversity in Catholic belief and application.

To your summary, not all Christians believe in eternal torment in hell. Catholics do, though. I don't.

Thane_Bitter
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I don't agree that it would be in appropriate, the project was on gay rights, not "gay slurs", I am sure some kid did a project on slavery or black history in Canada, I very much doubt he or she would have used the word nigger in describing the inherent racism towards blacks at that time.

The simple fact is that in the views and teaching of the catholic church they deem homosexuals as inherently distorted, a flaw that the must live with (suffering is next to godliness remember), talking about gays as a group with equal rights (or the struggle for) doesn't mesh well with the entire narrative of catholicism. She killed the project because it was easier to do that than explain why her faith and reality don't perfectly align.

Styvas
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Styvas

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They deem them theologically distorted. Some ignorant Catholics (or any person, for that matter) might deem them naturally distorted. I can't speak for ignorant people.

Thane_Bitter
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That is their official wording, not mine.

Styvas
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Styvas

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Inherently disordered? Yes. I would assume that's what it says. But it's a theological opinion, not a scientific one (even if ignorant Catholics would like to equate the two).

dirtyjeffer0
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

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said by DKS:

John Tory tried to win an election on expanded school funding to all religious schools. He lost hugely. Ontario will tolerate separate school funding.

no, John Tory did not try to win an election based on it...it was one small paragraph in a platform about a dozen pages long...what happened was the Liberals blew that one thing way out of proportion and buried him on it.

Gone
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join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

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... all the while the premier who was campaigning against Tory had sent his children to publicly-funded religious schools.
PX Eliezer1
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Zubrowka USA

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to dirtyjeffer0
said by dirtyjeffer0:

no, John Tory did not try to win an election based on it...it was one small paragraph in a platform about a dozen pages long...what happened was the Liberals blew that one thing way out of proportion and buried him on it.

I thought that John Tory [won] the election. ??

EDIT: My mistake. I thought you meant the recent Mayoral election....

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS to dirtyjeffer0

to dirtyjeffer0
said by dirtyjeffer0:

said by DKS:

John Tory tried to win an election on expanded school funding to all religious schools. He lost hugely. Ontario will tolerate separate school funding.

no, John Tory did not try to win an election based on it...it was one small paragraph in a platform about a dozen pages long...what happened was the Liberals blew that one thing way out of proportion and buried him on it.

Nice rewriting of history. I've heard a Conservative caucus member tell the story. My account stands.
DKS

DKS to Xstar_Lumini

to Xstar_Lumini
said by Xstar_Lumini:

I have my kids in catholic school for the reason that I don't want garbage taught to them, I want them to grow up with morals, please don't brainwash my kids with gay dogma, and if you want freedom of speech go attend a public school.

Then you had better ask of the school has a GSA. If the school does, and many separate schools do, you won't get what you think you will get.
booj
join:2011-02-07
Richmond, ON

booj to DKS

Member

to DKS
said by DKS:

Ontario will tolerate separate school funding.

There's a world of difference between will tolerate and wants.

It's a useless school board and should be stricken from the constitution.

dirtyjeffer0
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London, ON

dirtyjeffer0 to Gone

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said by Gone:

... all the while the premier who was campaigning against Tory had sent his children to publicly-funded religious schools.

yup, and was even called out for the hypocrisy...didn't stop him from getting re-elected though...damn Torontards.