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qualitybobby
Premium Member
join:2009-12-29
Middleville, NY

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Re: [Raiding] Progression Thread 6.0 WoD edition

said by Exodus:

Mythic Highmaul is a higher ilevel than heroic blackrock.

By the way. Blackrock is no fucking joke. Even on normal it is taxing.

QFT. We went in last night on heroic to see if we could do Gruul. The trash was insane. Like blowing cooldowns, heroism, etc. I think we wiped 6 or 7 times before the last mini-boss trash before him, and we wiped 3 or 4 times on that. We didn't have quite a few of our regulars, but MAN that trash seemed to be really overtuned. Which just sounds stupid to say... but that's what I was thinking.

Blockgorilla
Sarcasm is my native tongue
join:2010-02-11
Wichita, KS

Blockgorilla to Carpie

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I was watching the streams of a couple of high end raiders and their tanks were getting murdered on trash too. BRF is definitely hard on tanks, no matter the encounter. The damage is absolutely massive on every fight for them, except possibly Oregorger.

Immer
Gentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA

Immer

Premium Member

and that's how they "made healing more interesting".... /sigh
ZSwiftmend
join:2013-05-05
Morgantown, WV

ZSwiftmend to Blockgorilla

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to Blockgorilla
I remember Blizzard saying.. We are going to even out the spikey damage, so there wont be instances where your tank goes from 100% to 0%.

Exodus
Your Daddy
Premium Member
join:2001-11-26
Earth

Exodus

Premium Member

LOL not anymore. Instagib city in BRF. It happens. How about that mini-boss before Gruul? I found out the way to survive that is to have either everyone stack or make two stack points (melee/ranged) and make sure you have ranged hovering at around 30 yards. That guy does some super mario 2 hammer toss bullshit on every single person in the raid and then that shit splashes into several other hammers that hit in a radius on each player. If all the players stack then the splash hammers hit the area around the stack and not the players.

Going in on release date is rough. No good strats or discussions. Had to figure that one out on our own.

Energystream
Premium Member
join:2010-04-16
Ridgewood, NY

Energystream to Carpie

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I didn't have much time last night, so only tried maybe 4-5 wipes on Gruul. For DPS it is not a hard fight, but it sucks for healers and really sucks for tanks.

There Overwhelming blows and Inferno Slice (whatever the exact name is) are the abilities to conqour with management of the raid. Everything is on the personal avoidance. We had tried the tank on opposite sides with 2 raid stacks at the arms. Tanks kept messing up the timing with overwhelming blows and destroying the stacks.

It didn't seem terribly aweful for a heroic, but relies heavily on the tanks knowing what they are doing. Not even the big guilds cleared out heroic on day 1 if that says anything. The wing end-bosses seem to be wreckers. Difficulty increase from early wing bosses to end appears to be like Putricides wing from Icecrown.

Exodus
Your Daddy
Premium Member
join:2001-11-26
Earth

Exodus

Premium Member

Gruul is actually an incredibly easy fight for DPS. This is like 90% tanks and 10% healers. Healers have as much mechanics as DPS.

Energystream
Premium Member
join:2010-04-16
Ridgewood, NY

Energystream

Premium Member

I wouldn't say 10% healers since Inferno slice is likke 750,000-1,250,000 damage every 15 seconds. On top of all the other damage people will get.

Immer
Gentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA

Immer

Premium Member

yeah, but with how they've done healing this expansion... either you have the horsepower or you don't.

Exodus
Your Daddy
Premium Member
join:2001-11-26
Earth

Exodus

Premium Member

Yeah it's just healing. It's like butcher. And it's just like Immer said. You either have the horsepower or you don't. No one gets focus fired (minus the tank). It's just damage you heal up as efficiently as possible.

Energystream
Premium Member
join:2010-04-16
Ridgewood, NY

Energystream

Premium Member

It's not chaotic, but it seems to require about 30,000 HPS through-put to complete, maybe a little more. I am not saying it is difficult mechanics wise for healers, but it requires a decent gear level. Even if your tanks perform the mechanics perferectly, if your healers aren't geared for it you will fail.

This is a tank mechanic check, and healer gear check fight.

Exodus
Your Daddy
Premium Member
join:2001-11-26
Earth

Exodus

Premium Member

30k HPS is doable for anyone who is rocking 650 gear or better. Obviously, the higher the level, the easier the mana pool is. I can do 30k HPS on butcher but the HPS only ramps up when we hit 30%. Gruul is the entire time, so a "technical" 30k HPS is easier, especially when almost everyone is stationary.

qualitybobby
Premium Member
join:2009-12-29
Middleville, NY

qualitybobby to Exodus

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said by Exodus:

LOL not anymore. Instagib city in BRF. It happens. How about that mini-boss before Gruul? I found out the way to survive that is to have either everyone stack or make two stack points (melee/ranged) and make sure you have ranged hovering at around 30 yards. That guy does some super mario 2 hammer toss bullshit on every single person in the raid and then that shit splashes into several other hammers that hit in a radius on each player. If all the players stack then the splash hammers hit the area around the stack and not the players.

Going in on release date is rough. No good strats or discussions. Had to figure that one out on our own.

We ended up prepotting, blowing lust, stack them as good as possible and kill as much as we could before dying. We got all the small adds and one of the two ogron down before wiping. With just Hammer Bro and one Orgon left for the next pull it wasn't too bad.

saillaw
Premium Member
join:2007-05-08
Dismay

saillaw to ZSwiftmend

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to ZSwiftmend
said by ZSwiftmend:

I remember Blizzard saying.. We are going to even out the spikey damage, so there wont be instances where your tank goes from 100% to 0%.

This, I kept thinking about that statement from Blizzard last night while we tried heroic Gruul. Basically they seemed to have forgotten about that statement, without giving healers back their ability to adequately respond to single hits that do 95% hp damage. The healers still have incremental wet noodle heals, but the tanks and raid are taking massive damage spikes. And I'm not talking about situations where someone "stood in the fire", I am talking about handling mechanics as intended.

We gave it 28 tries, once we got to 7%, then 3%, then 1.8%, that was our best. At that point people were tired and we started making mistakes so we called it for the night.

At least for 14 people, the fight is insanely unforgiving. One dps dies, you might as well wipe it. A person being out of place, a taunt rotation mistake, a defensive CD rotation, a healer going oom, any of those = a wipe.

People in general chat were reporting that simply adding more people to your raid, even if they were not that good, made the fight much easier (apparently the damage from incinerate (I think that is the ability name) hardly goes up at all the more people you have, so a group of 7 is splitting 95% of the damage that a group of 12 splits). We didn't try that though because we kept thinking we would get him next try.

Part of me says I shouldn't be complaining, because I remember progression raiding on the original Gruul. We spent more than a month of three nights a week wiping on him.

But I don't remember feeling like that fight was so tightly tuned. I remember those wipes being more about getting all 25 people to actually understand the mechanics and to simply do it right. This current version is far more intense and you are on the edge of your seat the entire time having to focus 100%, 100% of the fight. There is zero room for slacking for even a second.
saillaw

saillaw to Energystream

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to Energystream
said by Energystream:

It didn't seem terribly aweful for a heroic

Yeah but remember, heroic is now the new normal. It sure didnt feel like a normal instance last night. Definitely the hardest first boss of an instance in a long, long time.

Energystream
Premium Member
join:2010-04-16
Ridgewood, NY

Energystream

Premium Member

So I was able to PuG Gruul and Drac (beastmaster). Group was around 20 people and the inferno slice seemed more managle. Drac I thought was easier once people learned to move for the pin down mechanic.

Trash is unnecessarily difficult. There is no reason for trash wiping the raid anymore, if they are trying to discourage boe farming, just lower the drop rate or put less trash.

Noiche
Premium Member
join:2013-06-17
Apo, AP

Noiche

Premium Member

We went in and killed the first 6 bosses in BRF on Tuesday on normal mode. We would wiye once or twice on most for people that hadn't preplanned to learn the fights, then smash it. 2 of the bosses we one shot though. It appears the mechanics themselves are quite simple, just the damage it produces isis the problem.

I'm really looking forward to doing heroic tomorrow. I also can't wait to see Blast Furnace on heroic. That fight is awesome!

Energystream
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join:2010-04-16
Ridgewood, NY

Energystream to Carpie

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I made my log public if you wan to see the Heroic Gruul and Darmac Fights (search for energyflux on whisperwind). I had a pretty geared group (average ilvl 670)

I agreed with the beast order we had pulled (Wolf, Elekk, Dragon thing). We had two wipes because Dragon was pulled second instead of last. Once because he was tanked too close, and the other because he rended to someone closer to Dragon and then changed phase. This fight is an aoe fest.

Noiche
Premium Member
join:2013-06-17
Apo, AP

Noiche

Premium Member

Well, we had a pretty amazing raid week I think. We one shorted heroic Gruul, but Oregorger had our number. Took us several hours (about 30ish wipes) to secure a kill. After than, Fran and whatshisname died after a few pulls. We ended the night with only 2-3 pulls on heroic Beast, but not downing it. 6/10 N and 3/10 H so far this raid.

Anyone in here seen some Blackhand action yet?

saillaw
Premium Member
join:2007-05-08
Dismay

1 edit

saillaw

Premium Member

We had two of our core raiders out last night, so we decided to run Normal instead of heroic. We figured that even though we dont need the gear it would be good to actually see the fights, and it was.

Some of the mechanics are quite fun.

It was also nice as a ret pally to be able to do a lot of aoe and be at the top of the meters for once in this expansion, gotta love doing 50k dps

Noiche
Premium Member
join:2013-06-17
Apo, AP

Noiche

Premium Member

Jumped in a PUG a few hours ago and managed to get another heroic boss down, and made lots of progress on Kromog, but no kill sadly. So I'm personally at 4/10 H now.
Noiche

Noiche

Premium Member

Went in with the guild and now sitting happily at 5/10 H. Next week should be really fun with all our main raiders on. We should be staring at Black hand soon.

saillaw
Premium Member
join:2007-05-08
Dismay

saillaw

Premium Member

We went in to Heroic last night and only managed to down 2 (Gruul and Hanz & Franz).

We did a lot of attempts on the Pacman boss and the boss with the mounts but on Pacman we were getting destroyed the first time he would roll. We definately need to adopt a new strategy for that. It's a much more challenging fight on heroic than normal simply because if he hits you while rolling, it one shots you.

On the mount boss we kept making it to the last phase (after he dismounts from the dragon) but just could not seal the deal (I think 7% was our best try). We had 2 tanks, 4 heals, and 8 dps. I really think we should have swapped one of the dps for heals and added a 5th because there is just a ton of un-avoidable damage at the end of that fight. But who knows.

Exodus
Your Daddy
Premium Member
join:2001-11-26
Earth

Exodus

Premium Member

Did 7/10 Normal yesterday. Didn't give up, just ran out of time. I wanted to clear it at least once on normal before doing heroic. My shaman is 666 and my mage is 668 now.

saillaw
Premium Member
join:2007-05-08
Dismay

saillaw

Premium Member

My ret pally has been stuck on 666 for quite a while because of the damn 4-piece pvp set bonus that's too OP for PVE. Yesterday I got a new 680 neck and I was a bit hesitant to equip it, I've enjoyed being 666.

Carpie
join:2012-10-19
united state

1 recommendation

Carpie

Member

PvP gear has absolutely no reason to be impactful to the PvE environment. And vice versa. It is ridiculous. I don't know why Blizz can't get this pvp/pve gear situation through their thick skulls.

And that is all I'm going to say rather than pull out the soapbox as I'd like to.
liquoranne
join:2009-01-14

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Our raid is struggling with fights, in part due to failing mechanics other part i believe is DPS. So first, our heal team is a pretty good comp: 2 druids, sham, disc, hpal then monk or druid if needed. Depending on the fight we generally pull 35k+ average.

As far as dps, what are you guys seeing for heroic? We have a number of people below 25k which i think is unnacceptable for heroic in this raid zone, but im not sure.

Now mechanics can be improved (hopefully) by more experience. DPS just seems to be stagnant with a number of players...Im no officer in the guild or anything but i dislike spending all night wiping on H Flamebender (wolves dude) which in my opinion is an easy encounter....

Energystream
Premium Member
join:2010-04-16
Ridgewood, NY

Energystream

Premium Member

I had remarked on this earlier. 28k single target average is about the goal to shoot for. Lower than that you are just increasing your failure rate and leaving it up to RNG.

Exodus
Your Daddy
Premium Member
join:2001-11-26
Earth

Exodus to liquoranne

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to liquoranne
If your lowest is 25k in heroic BRF, DPS should never be an issue anywhere.
liquoranne
join:2009-01-14

liquoranne

Member

No, we have people below 25k. Reason i ask is we did Orgregor and we only get him to like 63ish% prior to his first roll using lust. Most vids i see people get him to 50% before his first roll phase.

I mean, i guess this is ok because you can get 2 roll phases and survive, but like Energystream said the longer the fight the more likely for failed mechanics....

Just curious here.