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dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0 to Anon

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to Anon

Re: Anyone know how the new Ontario pension thing is going to work?

i just wonder how long it will be before the Liberals raid the pension fund to feed their spending addiction.

kingb71
join:2000-10-09
Mississauga, ON

kingb71 to sm5w2

Member

to sm5w2
So... What does this do to RRSP contribution limits, and does this reduce my taxes like an RRSP contribution would?
Why didn't they just expand private pensions like the Saskatchewan Pension plan
peterboro (banned)
Avatars are for posers
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned) to Anon

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said by EUS:

According to DKS, 2/3 cannot afford a rrsp, so the answer is to reduce their paycheck, and force them to put into a RRSP that may or may not pay out.

Oh they can afford it but chose to spend it on other priorities like drinking, smoking, vacations and other non essentials. Then when they get older they (or you) will come begging to me for money to support your previous lifestyle.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

3 recommendations

elwoodblues to IamGimli

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to IamGimli
said by IamGimli:

[Anyone wondering how Ontario keeps electing the same crooks? You can see it demonstrated here.

Anyone wonder why Canada keeps electing a dicatorship in Ottawa?

EUS
Kill cancer
Premium Member
join:2002-09-10
canada

EUS to peterboro

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to peterboro
said by peterboro:

said by EUS:

According to DKS, 2/3 cannot afford a rrsp, so the answer is to reduce their paycheck, and force them to put into a RRSP that may or may not pay out.

Oh they can afford it but chose to spend it on other priorities like drinking, smoking, vacations and other non essentials.

I know right? How dare they spend their own money?
BTW I don't need you to carry me.
booj
join:2011-02-07
Richmond, ON

1 edit

booj to Anon

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[deleted]
Since the contribution is matched how is it a net pay cut, and not an increase? Try to keep the FUD to a minimum.

EUS
Kill cancer
Premium Member
join:2002-09-10
canada

4 edits

EUS

Premium Member

[deleted]
As to your question, it's a net increase only if it's a defined benefit plan that increases without regard to the market values.
You know, like the sweet ass deals all those Fed MP's have.

Look up unfunded liabilities, the tax payer is on the hook.

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0 to booj

Premium Member

to booj
said by booj:

Since the contribution is matched how is it a net pay cut, and not an increase? Try to keep the FUD to a minimum.

as has been demonstrated, if you make $50k/year, your net pay will be reduced by about $40/pay...how is that not a pay cut?

i see you use the same Liberal Math that has buried this province in catastrophic levels of debt the past decade.

EUS
Kill cancer
Premium Member
join:2002-09-10
canada

EUS

Premium Member

Here's some more math, for those with their heads in the sand.
quote:
In addition to direct debt, Canadian governments have committed themselves to providing programs that are not fully funded. That is, they have promised to provide programs which current tax rates leave unfunded.

Three with large unfunded liabilities are the Canada Pension Plan (CPP), Old Age Security (OAS), and Canada's public health care system.

When these programs were designed around a half century ago, the idea was to tax a relatively large cohort of younger workers to pay for the benefits of a relatively small number of elderly.

The demographic assumptions turned out to be false.

In 1956, only 7.7% of Canadians were over 65 years old. That proportion doubled to 15.3% in 2013 and is expected to increase to 25.4% by 2061.

The aging of Canada's population has resulted in large and growing unfunded liabilities.

The shortfall is estimated at $792.3 billion for the CPP, $494.4 billion for OAS, and $894.7 billion for medicare.

These unfunded liabilities in public pensions and health care programs total $2.2 trillion or $134,841 for each income taxpayer.
Another great document »www.cfib-fcei.ca/cfib-do ··· 3262.pdf

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

1 recommendation

Gone to dirtyjeffer0

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to dirtyjeffer0
said by dirtyjeffer0:

as has been demonstrated, if you make $50k/year, your net pay will be reduced by about $40/pay...how is that not a pay cut?

Not only is it a $40 pay cut for the employee, but it is also an additional $40/pay expense for the employer that they did not have to spend before.

This plan is absolutely toxic for employers, especially when the entire province outside of the GTA is in the grips of a decade-long recession.
booj
join:2011-02-07
Richmond, ON

booj to EUS

Member

to EUS
Wonderfully impartial assessment there. Here's another:

»www.theglobeandmail.com/ ··· 2380032/

The CPP is doing well. It's FUD to assume the OPP (yeah you know me) will do any worse.

I agee employers will have to pay more (to their employees, who benefit in the long run). I suppose my view of net pay is more long term than others.

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0 to DKS

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to DKS
said by DKS:

The details are still rolling out,

but that doesn't stop your flag waving about it.

if we don't know all the details, how can anyone be in complete support of it?
dirtyjeffer0

dirtyjeffer0 to DKS

Premium Member

to DKS
here's a question for you.

in order to qualify for full benefits, you need to contribute for 40 years...so while it is awfully nice of the Liberals to tout its payout (which doesn't seem overly impressive to me), you would have to be 23 years old right now to start contributing in 2017 in order to get your full 40 years in (unless you want to be working when your 90)...essentially, that means pretty much all of the people in here will never collect the full amount, as i am pretty sure we are all over 23 (i would say most of us are in our 30s and 40s).

also, what happens to your "ORPP" when you die??...let's say i am married...and i die at the age of 80...does my spouse get the pension instead, or does it "disappear"?...what if i die at the age of 60 (before i retire, let's say), what happens to my pension then???...what if i am single...does it disappear, or does some amount of money go into my estate??

are the rates fixed for the duration or could they be subject to increases (i am kidding here, of course they can, and likely will, increase)?

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

elwoodblues to EUS

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to EUS
But you got a tax cut, that's all that counts for some.
Expand your moderator at work
mr weather
Premium Member
join:2002-02-27
Mississauga, ON

3 recommendations

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Re: Anyone know how the new Ontario pension thing is going to work?

And to the hair splitters who argue this is not a tax the point is it will be an additional cost of doing business in Ontario.

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS to dirtyjeffer0

to dirtyjeffer0
said by dirtyjeffer0:

i just wonder how long it will be before the Liberals raid the pension fund to feed their spending addiction.

Never. It will be separated by law, as the CPP is.
DKS

1 edit

DKS to EUS

to EUS
said by EUS:

[deleted]
As to your question, it's a net increase only if it's a defined benefit plan that increases without regard to the market values.
You know, like the sweet ass deals all those Fed MP's have.

Look up unfunded liabilities, the tax payer is on the hook.

Unfunded liabilities only occur when employers do not fulfill their legal obligations.
DKS

DKS to dirtyjeffer0

to dirtyjeffer0
said by dirtyjeffer0:

said by booj:

Since the contribution is matched how is it a net pay cut, and not an increase? Try to keep the FUD to a minimum.

as has been demonstrated, if you make $50k/year, your net pay will be reduced by about $40/pay...how is that not a pay cut?

i see you use the same Liberal Math that has buried this province in catastrophic levels of debt the past decade.

It's not. You will get $1,000/mo (12K a year) after 35 years. Stop thinking about today and plan for tomorrow.
DKS

DKS to dirtyjeffer0

to dirtyjeffer0
said by dirtyjeffer0:

said by DKS:

The details are still rolling out,

but that doesn't stop your flag waving about it.

if we don't know all the details, how can anyone be in complete support of it?

Because I know how DB plans work. It's not rocket science.
DKS

DKS to dirtyjeffer0

to dirtyjeffer0
said by dirtyjeffer0:

here's a question for you.

in order to qualify for full benefits, you need to contribute for 40 years...so while it is awfully nice of the Liberals to tout its payout (which doesn't seem overly impressive to me), you would have to be 23 years old right now to start contributing in 2017 in order to get your full 40 years in (unless you want to be working when your 90)...essentially, that means pretty much all of the people in here will never collect the full amount, as i am pretty sure we are all over 23 (i would say most of us are in our 30s and 40s).

also, what happens to your "ORPP" when you die??...let's say i am married...and i die at the age of 80...does my spouse get the pension instead, or does it "disappear"?...what if i die at the age of 60 (before i retire, let's say), what happens to my pension then???...what if i am single...does it disappear, or does some amount of money go into my estate??

are the rates fixed for the duration or could they be subject to increases (i am kidding here, of course they can, and likely will, increase)?

Those are all actuarial questions. Look to the existing CPP for a template. I suspect the ORPP will be similar.
DKS

DKS to EUS

to EUS
said by EUS:

Three with large unfunded liabilities are the Canada Pension Plan (CPP), Old Age Security (OAS), and Canada's public health care system.

Sorry, that's FUD. The CPP does not have unfunded liability and is actuarially sound until at least 2070. The OAS and health care systems are not insurance plans, so there is no such thing as "unfunded liability".
quote:
The results contained in this report confirm that the legislated contribution rate of 9.9% is sufficient to financially sustain the Plan over the long term. The results also show that assets accumulate to $300 billion (i.e. 5.2 times the annual expenditures) by 2020.

The minimum contribution rate required to financially sustain the Plan under this report is 9.84% for the year 2016 and thereafter, compared to 9.86% for years 2013 to 2022 and 9.85% from 2023 onward, as determined for the 25th CPP Actuarial Report. Experience over the period 2010 to 2012 was better than anticipated overall, especially regarding migration, benefits, and investment returns. However, this is offset by higher projected life expectancies at age 65 and lower assumed real wage increases. The net result of all changes since the 25th CPP Actuarial Report is an overall small decrease in the minimum contribution rate.

Under the 9.9% legislated contribution rate, the assets are projected to grow rapidly over the next decade as contribution revenue is expected to exceed expenditures over that period. Assets will continue to grow thereafter until the end of the projection period, but at a slower pace, with the ratio of assets to the following year’s expenditures expected to reach a level of 6.0 by 2050. Thus, despite the projected substantial increase in benefits paid as a result of an aging population, the Plan is expected to be able to meet its obligations throughout the projection period and to remain financially sustainable over the long term.

»www.osfi-bsif.gc.ca/eng/ ··· p26.aspx
btech805
join:2013-08-01
Canada

btech805 to sm5w2

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It is a job killer is what it is. My money is better managed by me in a tfsa and rrsp account investing in mutual funds. I dont need the Liberals taking more money from me than the 25-30% they already do each and every year.

For those that say this payroll tax (or pay cut, whatever you prefer) isn't a job killer, let's forget the mom and pop shops for a minute that may swallow an extra $20/pay for their minimum wage cashiers and lets look at a large corporation, say Bell Canada. More specifically, Bell Technical Solutions, the install and repair division i work for. We do not have a pension plan, thag was tossed out when entourage was created. So for BTS which has some 5,000 employees in Ontario, that at $40/pay per employee the company has to contribute, that is $200k per pay the company must come up with. Every TWO WEEKS. Or $5.2 million dollars a year in contributions the company doesnt make now.

This will leave two options, either developing new "revenue tools" such as higher installation fees, or increases in monthly bills (which people cry foul over already, and totally understandably), or job cuts. It would be much easier to cut 100-200 employees and further push out installs and repairs from 3 days now to 5 days. That is what will happen.

So having a tiny fraction of income coming in at 65 is lovely, but most of us need money and jobs now. Anyone who works their entire career to depend on the $1000/month (or so) from cpp+oas hasnt planned well enough financially, and adding another couple hundred dollars a month to that isn't going to make a difference.

This pension plan is just another hand into my pockets, and id much rather trust my savings with my banker than those greedy bastards.

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS

said by btech805:

It is a job killer is what it is. My money is better managed by me in a tfsa and rrsp account investing in mutual funds.

Can you make 9-10% or more in yields annually? Over 20-30 years? if you can, then you are in the wrong business.

EUS
Kill cancer
Premium Member
join:2002-09-10
canada

EUS to DKS

Premium Member

to DKS
said by DKS:

said by dirtyjeffer0:

said by DKS:

The details are still rolling out,

but that doesn't stop your flag waving about it.

if we don't know all the details, how can anyone be in complete support of it?

Because I know how DB plans work. It's not rocket science.

Actually it is rocket science, which is why non taxpayer based corporations pay boatloads of money, and hire teams of professionals (CPAs, actuarys) to calculate, and otherwise manage PPs, both current, and future liabilities they will incur.

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0 to DKS

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to DKS
said by DKS:

said by dirtyjeffer0:

said by booj:

Since the contribution is matched how is it a net pay cut, and not an increase? Try to keep the FUD to a minimum.

as has been demonstrated, if you make $50k/year, your net pay will be reduced by about $40/pay...how is that not a pay cut?

i see you use the same Liberal Math that has buried this province in catastrophic levels of debt the past decade.

It's not. You will get $1,000/mo (12K a year) after 35 years. Stop thinking about today and plan for tomorrow.

i have planned for tomorrow and already contribute to my retirement.

and no, i won't get $1000/month (and neither will you)...i do find it ironic you keep telling people to stop spreading FUD, when you yourself is doing just that...the top payout is $1068.33/month, and that assumes you make $90k/year for 40 years (and pay about $138/month into the plan).

considering so many of you are crying about the "poor" living in poverty, i'm curious how you think this will help them in ANY way...$12k/year is below the poverty level now, let alone in 40 years...and all those poor people certainly aren't making $90k/year right now (and for 40 years) to provide that $12k/year pension.

»www.lfpress.com/2014/12/ ··· ion-plan

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS to sm5w2

to sm5w2
If you want some fairly deep reading on pensions, this blog is one of the best. Careful. You may not like what the author says. He strongly supports DB pensions and has evidence the rest are pure crap. »pensionpulse.blogspot.ca/

thebaron
Premium Member
join:2003-12-09
Zegema Beach

thebaron to DKS

Premium Member

to DKS
said by DKS:

said by btech805:

It is a job killer is what it is. My money is better managed by me in a tfsa and rrsp account investing in mutual funds.

Can you make 9-10% or more in yields annually? Over 20-30 years? if you can, then you are in the wrong business.

I make more than that investing my own money back in to my company.
I will be taking my pay as dividends when this kicks in. Not letting Wynn tell me how to manage my money.

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS to sm5w2

to sm5w2
Do defined contribution pension plans work? Nope. And the evidence is in.
quote:
... there is now evidence from five North American jurisdictions that have converted to DC that is on the public record in those jurisdictions, but had not previously entered into the Canadian pension policy discussion.

The main findings of the research were that the conversions to DC worked out poorly for all stakeholders in those five jurisdictions and half of the plans that were converted to mandatory DC arrangements were subsequently re-converted. The difficulties experienced in these conversions were attributed by Dr. Brown to the inferior efficiency of DC as a mechanism for delivering retirement incomes. Other studies of the subject commissioned by Minnesota, Texas, Nevada, Wisconsin and New York City reached similar conclusions.

»cpplc.wordpress.com/blog/
DKS

DKS to dirtyjeffer0

to dirtyjeffer0
said by dirtyjeffer0:

considering so many of you are crying about the "poor" living in poverty, i'm curious how you think this will help them in ANY way...$12k/year is below the poverty level now, let alone in 40 years...and all those poor people certainly aren't making $90k/year right now (and for 40 years) to provide that $12k/year pension.

And I have said repeatedly, it is a portion of retirement income. The "three legged stool" model of DB pension, public income (CPP/OAS) and private savings is still the standard. The ORPP increases the strength of one of the three legs.