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Immer
Gentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA

Immer to Adalicia

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to Adalicia

Re: LFR - Tourist mode?

said by Adalicia:

I found it to be an interesting view but I disagree with his stance.

I'd probably fall in the same camp. There's definitely room to argue the downside of an easy LFR, but in the end I'd walk away disagreeing.

I hadn't thought about it, but I do agree with your association of Heroic dungeons with Garrisons. Especially when we remember how unimportant Heroic dungeons became in MoP when they went the whole expansion without introducing a new 5man. But these new dungeons did a Great job of propelling the storyline and are now cleverly integrated into the Garrison stuff. If you are raiding Mythic for the challenge, and raiding Heroics for the farmed gear, and CM for "fun" then you've already lost your appetite for h.dungeons without LFR.

Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium Member
join:2010-08-24
Mexico

Jobbie to Immer

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to Immer
said by Immer:

I do have one request... if you are going to skip trash mobs to make an already quick run even faster... someone make sure your tanks are aware of this

Agreed, I just went in face first and they see everybody jumping ahead to the other side of the fence. Since it was my first time tanking it I didn't know which packs are skippable or not.

Immer
Gentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA

Immer

Premium Member

yeah, I had no idea either... but I'm not running out in front (clearly... I'm not a mage, lol)

Energystream
Premium Member
join:2010-04-16
Ridgewood, NY

Energystream to Carpie

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to Carpie
God Jobbie, you wasted like 120 seconds of our time that we could have been zerging the boss.

Regarding heroics, they will always have a place to boost people to some baseline level of gear that they don't get wrecked when being carried. Also you can only do LFR once a week (most of the time). If you are unlucky you are not going to wait several weeks to fill out your slots.

I do hope they add 1-2 more dungeons, I enjoyed that about Wrath.

Immer
Gentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA

Immer

Premium Member

said by Energystream:

I do hope they add 1-2 more dungeons, I enjoyed that about Wrath.

Me, too. What made them so great was that they propelled the storyline. Somehow, they goofed up in Cata... those added dungeons didn't have the same impact, and I think it was simply that we had grown tired of Thrall and the woefully underwhelming portrayal of Deathwing.

However, as the storyline of WoD advances, I'd like to see tougher dungeons added, even if they are only a few bosses each.

Carpie
join:2012-10-19
united state

Carpie to Energystream

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to Energystream
said by Energystream:

you can only do LFR once a week

I think this is the point that LFRs don't invalidate heroic dungeons. Dungeons can be (and should be) farmed for gear in a short period of time.

Adalicia
Om Nom Nom
join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE

Adalicia to Immer

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to Immer
The problem with the mid and late expansion dungeons they added in Cata was that...in some cases they were supposed to be raids originally before Blizzard realized they had no where near enough time. And, of course, two of them WERE raids that they felt they needed to turn into 5 man dungeons. I'm still bitter about that.

Immer
Gentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA

Immer

Premium Member

said by Adalicia:

two of them WERE raids that they felt they needed to turn into 5 man dungeons. I'm still bitter about that.

oh man, I had forgotten about that... yeah... that was bad.

Adalicia
Om Nom Nom
join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE

Adalicia

Member

They weren't bad instances, but as someone who had raided ZG and ZA back during Vanilla and TBC it was...kind of insulting. It felt like charm and originality was ripped away. But mainly it just bums me out that two of the...currently three Troll centric raids were basically removed from the game and replaced with instances that kind of resemble their original glory but not really.

P Ness
You'Ve Forgotten 9-11 Already
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join:2001-08-29
way way out

P Ness to Carpie

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they could have at least made it easy WITH the basic mechanics in the game so these slubs actually learn the fight for normal

Skittles
Premium Member
join:2011-03-31

Skittles to Adalicia

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to Adalicia
I miss Original Bloodlord kicking the shit out of us many a night.....ZG was bad ass when it came out. Grinding gators for Bijous and hitting exalted for the chant was worth it.

saillaw
Premium Member
join:2007-05-08
Dismay

saillaw to P Ness

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to P Ness
said by P Ness:

they could have at least made it easy WITH the basic mechanics in the game so these slubs actually learn the fight for normal

I agree with this. I have no problem with LFR being a faceroll, but I don't like that it is "training" people wrongly. In the 20 min steam-roll I did LFR in last night, our raid completely ignored mechanics. Those people now think they know the fights and will jump into normal mode and have a mean surprise.

Immer
Gentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA

Immer

Premium Member

I disagree. If we are going to talk about "training the right way", then every difficulty should employ the Mythic mechanics. Raiding Normal takes time, coordination, and explanation of mechanics... things that we all know full-well do not happen in LFR. LFR is for casuals to see the content and for those who would like to raid to get gear so they can get into a guild that raids. Raiders just want to blast through there for a shot at a filler piece of gear without having to hand-hold those who would ignore the mechanics anyway even if told. Heck, we have guildies who don't pay attention to mechanics until it has affected them personally. I don't want that in LFR... ever. We already have 3 levels of real raiding (normal/heroic/mythic) and many of us will only see 2 of them.

okay... I'm done with the Harrumph.
vic6string
join:2014-11-19
Miami, FL

vic6string to saillaw

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to saillaw
Yeah, I gave it my first go on LFR last night and I have to agree it is almost insulting how easy it is. I spent twice as long in the queue waiting to get in as I did actually fighting the 3 bosses I got in for. Nothing even close to a wipe, and there was no instruction going in, no planning, nothing. It is all tank and spank, with only the most basic tiny things to think about (don't stand in bad stuff, kill adds, and at least one person hit your interrupt button when DBM tells you to). 3 bosses could not have been more than about 25 minutes.

At least in SoO, you had to have SOME idea about how a fight worked, and there was a good chance in LFR you'd wipe (or come close to wiping) at least once on trickier bosses like Thok, Seigecrafter, Malkorok, etc. 5 man heroics are MUCH harder than this raid was, and this is just week one. Once people are better geared in a week or two, this will be quicker than Apexis dailies.

Immer
Gentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA

Immer

Premium Member

said by vic6string:

At least in SoO, you had to have SOME idea about how a fight worked,

LFR in SoO ramped up in difficulty and headache as you progressed through the wings. I loathed doing the last wing in LFR despite it being a year old.

Energystream
Premium Member
join:2010-04-16
Ridgewood, NY

Energystream to Carpie

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to Carpie
I am Okay with LFR being super easy. There are already 3 levels of difficulty higher, you want real challenge there is plenty of opportunity.

LFR - Tourist
Normal - Casual
Heroic - Dedicated
Mythic - Progression
vic6string
join:2014-11-19
Miami, FL

vic6string to Immer

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to Immer
said by Immer:

...

It ramped up, but even the first few raids in MoP weren't a faceroll in LFR. They weren't the wipefest that was SoO (Thok was almost at least a guaranteed two stacks of determination every time, right up until the end) but you did die on an encounter or two even on the first raid.

Cat5
join:2013-04-26

Cat5 to Energystream

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to Energystream
said by Energystream:

I am Okay with LFR being super easy. There are already 3 levels of difficulty higher, you want real challenge there is plenty of opportunity.

LFR - Tourist
Normal - Casual
Heroic - Dedicated
Mythic - Progression

This.

The only complaint I have is that gear dropped surpasses everything else casuals have access to so makes dungeons moot. This has lessened somewhat with no raid tier peices (LFR has it's own tier bonuses now) but I still think granting total noobs and disruptive players welfare epics is wrong. Let them see the content but award them heroic dungeon ilevelled loot.

Adalicia
Om Nom Nom
join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE

Adalicia

Member

Yes, those 4-10 extra ilvls between Heroic/Heroic Warforged and LFR will give them a level of smug self satisfaction the world has never seen before nor will ever see again. Better get rid of crafted epics too. And remove that system that lets quest items roll as upgrades. Oh, and remove the ability to sell them on the auction house. I mean we wouldn't want the filthy plebs to have anything purple, that is for the elite.

Energystream
Premium Member
join:2010-04-16
Ridgewood, NY

Energystream to Carpie

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to Carpie
Yea the ilvl difference is lackluster and it is achievable through base level crafting. Want to give dunegons a bone to make people leveling go into it? give it a blue dungeon set. This will likely be more desired than non-set pieces from LFR.

Blizzard wanted LFR's accessible to the masses instead of the top 10-20%. They succeeded.

Lothario
join:2009-09-30
Ottawa, ON

Lothario to Carpie

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to Carpie
Still need to do heroics for the ring quest chain.
Going to be 2 + hour queues for dpsto get those done soon.
djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228

djlar

Member

Nah 30 mins tops for DPS...

BTW I just got my i680 ring, will LFR bosses drop the pieces for next step?

Cat5
join:2013-04-26

Cat5 to Adalicia

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to Adalicia
said by Adalicia:

Yes, those 4-10 extra ilvls between Heroic/Heroic Warforged and LFR will give them a level of smug self satisfaction the world has never seen before nor will ever see again. Better get rid of crafted epics too. And remove that system that lets quest items roll as upgrades. Oh, and remove the ability to sell them on the auction house. I mean we wouldn't want the filthy plebs to have anything purple, that is for the elite.

It's not the colour, it's the ilevel.

Heroic dungeons are still challenging, and with certain players damn near impossible, but offer 630 ilevel gear. LFR is a total faceroll, which a lot of player will just AFK through and be carried, yet offers gear which is 10 ilevels higher than heroics.

The stats may not be as good, but higher ilevel gear allows you to queue for harder stuff, and lots of PUG raids (wrongly) use ilevel as a gauge.

Crafted gear at least requires an ounce of thought into mat farming or sinking gold for a required piece, LFR is just a show up for free 640 gear.

Adalicia
Om Nom Nom
join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE

Adalicia

Member

said by Cat5:

Crafted gear at least requires an ounce of thought into mat farming or sinking gold for a required piece, LFR is just a show up for free 640 gear.

Are you serious? Are you honestly going to say that Crafted gear requires an ounce of thought? You wanna know how much thought went into getting my Engineering Goggles?
said by Adalicia:

"Where is the cloth recipe on this NPC...hm...hm...there it is! One Book to learn? Okay!" Adalicia crafts an Engineering Book. "There we go. Purchase! Hm. Requires these materials? Okay." Adalicia uses the CD based crafting recipe and proceeds to fill her Engineering Shop full of Work Orders. She repeats this process for several days before eventually crafting her Goggles.

Holy shit, the thought required to craft those Googles, good thing I am not a sack of potatoes, otherwise that might have been ever so slightly difficult.

Now then, as the the rest of the statement, heroics aren't difficult. At all. And I am a Healer. I am a Priest healer. I could complain about healing being unfun but at no point have any of the heroics seemed hard or "damn near impossible."

saillaw
Premium Member
join:2007-05-08
Dismay

saillaw to Immer

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to Immer
said by Immer:

I disagree. If we are going to talk about "training the right way", then every difficulty should employ the Mythic mechanics. Raiding Normal takes time, coordination, and explanation of mechanics... things that we all know full-well do not happen in LFR. LFR is for casuals to see the content and for those who would like to raid to get gear so they can get into a guild that raids. Raiders just want to blast through there for a shot at a filler piece of gear without having to hand-hold those who would ignore the mechanics anyway even if told. Heck, we have guildies who don't pay attention to mechanics until it has affected them personally. I don't want that in LFR... ever. We already have 3 levels of real raiding (normal/heroic/mythic) and many of us will only see 2 of them.

okay... I'm done with the Harrumph.

I don't care if it is piss easy, but I don't think it's good for the game, or the casual player to let them ignore the mechanics. They don't need the Mythic level of coordination, but they should at least learn how the fight works, at least at the normal level mechanics.

Carpie
join:2012-10-19
united state

Carpie

Member

It's kind of catch-22. We want people to have to know the mechanics but then get pissed off when we end up wiping time after time in LFR when they don't.

My opinion is that I'm glad that I don't have to be inconvenienced and angered by their lack of preparation. In SoO, I pretty much just wrote off LFRs because it wasn't worth the headache. With Highmaul so far, fast queues and fast runs with no headache = hell yes I'll do it.

I do have a question though... to do heroic dungeons you had to get a silver in the proving grounds. Is that a requirement for LFRs as well?

Cat5
join:2013-04-26

Cat5 to Adalicia

Member

to Adalicia
said by Adalicia:

Are you serious? Are you honestly going to say that Crafted gear requires an ounce of thought? You wanna know how much thought went into getting my Engineering Goggles?

You have to plan to make them. You have to decide to use your cooldowns for them and not the Wormhole, or the vanity pets. You then have to make sure you get the right recipe for your spec and wait some time to gather the mats. By the time you craft them, you've earned them.
said by Adalicia:

Now then, as the the rest of the statement, heroics aren't difficult. At all. And I am a Healer. I am a Priest healer. I could complain about healing being unfun but at no point have any of the heroics seemed hard or "damn near impossible."

Have you done heroics since the raids launched? The vast majority of geared players are off doing those, not running dungeons. That means that there is a good chance of DPS only pulling 6-8k DPS, healers who cannot keep up with damage and tanks who take a lot of damage. Bad healer and band tank in Shadowmoon Burial Grounds will wipe time and time again to the trash. I consider myself a good healer and I'm mass spamming Healing surge to keep the tank alive. Obviously people should CC, but what's the point when the next step up is faceroll LFR for better gear.

I think LFR has a part to play, I really do, I just don't like the way it supercedes crafted/heroic dungeon gear and requires far less effort.

Adalicia
Om Nom Nom
join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE

Adalicia

Member

said by Cat5:

You have to plan to make them. You have to decide to use your cooldowns for them and not the Wormhole, or the vanity pets. You then have to make sure you get the right recipe for your spec and wait some time to gather the mats. By the time you craft them, you've earned them.

If this qualifies as "work" or "effort" then I...I don't even know what to say. I guess it just goes to show how different the game has become over the last ten years. Anyone remember crafting the old Frozen Shadoweave Set and how much work that required in TBC?

Waiting for Garrison and Crafting cool downs does not mean effort. It means waiting. Waiting for something does not qualify as working towards it when you're talking about clicking something in your Profession window once a day.

I would love to know how difficult you rank the Mines or Herb Garden in the Garrison because, man, that must be on par with Heroic Raiding since you have to move and right click nodes and stuff.
said by Cat5:

Have you done heroics since the raids launched? The vast majority of geared players are off doing those, not running dungeons. That means that there is a good chance of DPS only pulling 6-8k DPS, healers who cannot keep up with damage and tanks who take a lot of damage. Bad healer and band tank in Shadowmoon Burial Grounds will wipe time and time again to the trash. I consider myself a good healer and I'm mass spamming Healing surge to keep the tank alive. Obviously people should CC, but what's the point when the next step up is faceroll LFR for better gear.

I think LFR has a part to play, I really do, I just don't like the way it supercedes crafted/heroic dungeon gear and requires far less effort.

No, I have not. I have been engrossed in Dragon Age: Inquisition and dealing with massive amounts of overtime at work. I have little time in the evening so I basically hop on to sort Garrison stuff and log out to play something else for an hour or two before I have to get to bed.

Bad players have always been in the game and as should be evidenced by posts in other threads the Heroic dungeon groups have had plenty of half retarded players doing their best to fuck up runs. And yet people still managed to get through. These dungeons aren't Cata difficult. They aren't TBC difficult. They aren't original Vanilla difficult. Hell, even in Wrath the Heroics were rough until people were slogging through Naxx. I always like bringing up that Holy Paladins had an extremely difficult time healing Loken at launch. But man, they still managed to pull it off.

So, you want the geared players doing Heroics so you have it easy, or am I misreading? You want Heroics to be easy for you and LFR to be hard for everyone else?

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium Member
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

DarkLogix to Cat5

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to Cat5
said by Cat5:

said by Carpie:

The ilvl requirement for LFR is 615.

Mine was locked and when I hovered over it says you do not meet the requirements 627 / 635.

YOu hovered the wrong one, the early ones are 615 the later are 635
DarkLogix

DarkLogix to Immer

Premium Member

to Immer
said by Immer:

I hope the QQ about "easy loot"

What?
Reg is easy
tuesday we did through twin ogers (thats what boss 5)
boss 6 is a pain as I can't even damage the boss most of the fight (melee got what they wanted a melee friendly fight)