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defiant
Former Charter lackey
join:2013-03-22
Monroe, MI
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defiant

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[Electrical] Advice for correcting my home's load center MESS

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I
Hello all,

I've been lurking here for quite some and have gained some valuable information since becoming a homeowner. I know humbly request feedback and advice on my home's electrical situation.

Unfortunately, I put too much faith in my home inspector and found this mess in my home's load center AFTER buying my current home.

Thanks to a FOIA request, I have a copy of my township's building department file for my home and found that a permit was pulled to upgrade my home to 100 amp service back in August of 2000 by a local electrical contractor. It also appears this contractor is still in-business (nearly the same business name, though different location in town).

I'm thinking about contacting this contractor to see if they will work with me on correcting the issues with their work, even though I didn't own the home at the time and it was over 14 years ago. Thoughts on this?

If this contractor balks at rectifying the shoddy work or it turns out it's not the same company that did the work, what would be a fair price to rewire the panel correctly by a licensed electrician? I would consider doing the work myself, as I'm fairly confident I could do it; however, the time it would take me to do it would negatively impact my family seeing the electrical service would be down until the building inspector gives the final approval.

robbin
Mod
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX

robbin

Mod

said by defiant:

Thanks to a FOIA request, I have a copy of my township's building department file for my home and found that a permit was pulled to upgrade my home to 100 amp service back in August of 2000 by a local electrical contractor.

Was there a final inspection for this permit?

defiant
Former Charter lackey
join:2013-03-22
Monroe, MI

defiant

Member

That's something I have to follow up on with the bld. dept. However, there was a approval sticker on my home's service meter, which has since (mostly) worn off. So, I'm assuming there was a final inspection.

CylonRed
MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
·Metronet

1 recommendation

CylonRed to defiant

MVM

to defiant
So, you want to possibly have the same contractor fix the shoddy work they did initially? If they did this work 14 years ago - are not going to fix it for free. They simply have wayyyyyyy to many outs over the 14 years. There is no guarantee that any past owners did not mess around with the box.

But IF they did this work and no one else has touched it - then why would you want them to touch it again?

Find a qualified electrician to fix the box....

davidg
Good Bye My Friend
MVM
join:2002-06-15
00000

davidg to defiant

MVM

to defiant
there is no way you will get them to fix this for free.

Although the company you found is a similar name it may not be the same company even if it is the same OWNER. Often a contractor will file bankruptcy and reopen under a similar name as a new company with the same equipment and same employees/owners. For instance one local plumber/HVAC/electrical contractor here has always used the owner's last name for the company. right now he is on "Smith's Plumbing/HVAC/Electrical 3". He does not warranty any work the previous 2 companies did. Even if he did, he certainly would not warranty something from 14 years ago, nor would the current company have any legal obligation to do so since technically they are not the original company that did the work.

Jack in VA
Premium Member
join:2014-07-07
North, VA

1 recommendation

Jack in VA to defiant

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to defiant
I would be hard to convince that a licensed electrician wired this abortion but if one did then his license should be pulled.

OP get a good electrical company to straighten this out. While you're at it just go ahead and upgrade the panel to 200 amp.

mackey
Premium Member
join:2007-08-20

mackey to defiant

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to defiant
Just think, if the panel's this bad just imagine what the rest of the wiring is like I'd get someone else to go through the whole place ASAP.

/M

Msradell
Premium Member
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY

2 recommendations

Msradell to Jack in VA

Premium Member

to Jack in VA
said by Jack in VA:

While you're at it just go ahead and upgrade the panel to 200 amp.

? People keep mentioning this in almost every thread that relates to replacing the panel. I really don't understand the reasoning for it. Overall, electrical consumption in homes is going down not up in most cases. Lighting, electronics, air-conditioning, etc. are all becoming more efficient and using less electricity these days. If 100 amp service has been adequate is the past unless you are planning on some major additions to your home why bother upgrading? Upgrading is probably going to cost you more especially if you have to upgrade the mast and feeder cable from it. Granted labor costs should be about the same but why bother if it's not needed??

Jack in VA
Premium Member
join:2014-07-07
North, VA

Jack in VA

Premium Member

It would make perfect sense for those of us that have the benefit of the POCO installing everything outside including the meter pan. The homeowner service panel on the outside wall behind the meter pan makes it very easy. The cost of a 200 amp panel vs a 100 amp is minimal.
Hellrazor
Bah Humbug
join:2002-02-02
Abyss, PA

Hellrazor to Msradell

Member

to Msradell
said by Msradell:

People keep mentioning this in almost every thread that relates to replacing the panel.

The panel is full, looks like a 12 year old wired it, etc. If you are going to replace the panel, upgrading it to something that has room for expansion is the way to go.

robbin
Mod
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX

robbin to Msradell

Mod

to Msradell
said by Msradell:

If 100 amp service has been adequate is the past unless you are planning on some major additions to your home why bother upgrading?

Does service capacity have to equal panel capacity? In other words can you have a 200 amp main panel with 100 amp service?

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

1 recommendation

nunya to defiant

MVM

to defiant
Is this picture real or a joke? I have my doubts, but I'll reply anyway in good faith.
There is so much wrong there that it would be best to start over. Since the panel is full, I would suggest getting a panel with more spaces.

Fat chance on getting somebody to come back after 14 years. I wouldn't let any SOB that did this kind of work within 300 yards of my home.
This wasn't done by any electrician. This was done by an ass hole. I would imagine it was a handyman or the previous homeowner. How it ever passed any type of inspection is beyond me.
Perhaps they bribed an electrician to pull the permit and they bribed the inspector to look the other way?

Anyway, cleaning up the mess pictured (professionally) is probably a 3-4 hour job, not including administrative tasks (permits, poco scheduling).
Add another hour if you do the right thing and chuck the panel.

Based on on this picture, I'm sure there are many other dominoes behind this one.

defiant
Former Charter lackey
join:2013-03-22
Monroe, MI

defiant to Hellrazor

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to Hellrazor
The panel appears full - there's a 220 circuit not being used.
defiant

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This is no joke.

A permit was pulled to upgrade to 100 amp service 14 years ago with my township.

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

nunya to robbin

MVM

to robbin
said by robbin:

Does service capacity have to equal panel capacity? In other words can you have a 200 amp main panel with 100 amp service?

No. OCPD must match the service feeder wire size.
If you have a 100A breaker in front of the 200A panel, then everything is OK. It would be silly, but it's safe and not illegal.
Spaces and service size are not related. You can have 60 space panel with 100A service if you wanted to.
The SMALLEST 100A panel I install at a residence is 30 full spaces unless there are some sort of extreme circumstances that dictate otherwise.

mackey
Premium Member
join:2007-08-20

mackey to defiant

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to defiant
said by defiant:

The panel appears full - there's a 220 circuit not being used.

Yeah, about those... Why is there #8 or possibly #6 wire for 20A circuits? The entire place must be checked ASAP, this is most likely just the tip of the iceberg. At any rate, only 2 slots open still = full in my book.

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

nunya to defiant

MVM

to defiant
I have to say - I've seen some pretty fucked up stuff in my career. This would probably fall in the top 20 under the "poor workmanship" category. It's quite clear whoever did this had absolutely no idea what they were doing.

I'd put the lid back on this thing and start calling electricians in the morning.

mackey
Premium Member
join:2007-08-20

mackey

Premium Member

said by nunya:

I have to say - I've seen some pretty fucked up stuff in my career. This would probably fall in the top 20 under the "poor workmanship" category.

So it's not the worst? That's...scary.

defiant
Former Charter lackey
join:2013-03-22
Monroe, MI

defiant to Jack in VA

Member

to Jack in VA
Everyone pretty much confirmed my worst fears. I'm calling a different contractor Monday.

Contacting the (supposed) original contractor was a long shot, but I've already had a few other surprises with this house that I've addressed.

John Galt6
Forward, March
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join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp

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John Galt6 to defiant

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to defiant
When was this house inspected by your home inspector?

defiant
Former Charter lackey
join:2013-03-22
Monroe, MI

1 edit

defiant

Member

July 2012

kevinds
Premium Member
join:2003-05-01
Calgary, AB

kevinds to robbin

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to robbin
said by robbin:

Does service capacity have to equal panel capacity? In other words can you have a 200 amp main panel with 100 amp service?

Replace the 200 amp breaker with a 100 amp, and yes, you are good to go.

But if you are doing that, why not replace the wire from the meter to the panel for 200 amp while you are at it.

I believe here, if you have gas (oil is non-existent as far as I can tell), 100 amp service is fine, if you have electric heat, 200 is required.

Have to find my copy of the electrical code to confirm...

(remembers using my copy of the Electrical code to explain to my landlord that he was wrong, it wasn't to code) haha

John Galt6
Forward, March
Premium Member
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp

John Galt6

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said by kevinds:

said by robbin:

Does service capacity have to equal panel capacity? In other words can you have a 200 amp main panel with 100 amp service?

Replace the 200 amp breaker with a 100 amp, and yes, you are good to go.

Uh, NO.

There are other issues. Stop giving exceptionally poor advice.

defiant
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Gas heat.

I'll evaluate the need to go 200 amp service with contractor(s) I approach to rectify this debacle. It's a 1.5 story, 950 sq. ft. home, so I'm not sure there will be much of a need to expand. But, we'll see.

Whoever did the electrical renovation also felt the need to have circuits that power outlets throughout various parts of my home. I recently found out the sump is on the same circuit that serves outlets on the main floor and in a room upstairs.

What a PITA...

cybersaga
join:2011-12-19
Selby, ON

cybersaga

Member

I found similar things in our place. Downstairs rec room lighting and outlets, downstairs bathroom (where the outlet gave a shock when touching the screw on the cover plate), upstairs living room and porch lights all on the same circuit. Kind of confusing.

The cold cellar light was even better: wired with two-wire extension cord wire, going through the concrete block wall with no conduit, two taped splices along the way, fastened with finishing nails between the two wires, and a plug on the other end that plugged into the outlet beside the panel.

HGRBS
join:2014-12-15
United State

1 recommendation

HGRBS to defiant

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Hi Passerby,

I understand your concern; however, these sort of matters are best handled by properly credentialed professional and experienced electricians.

Passerby, please, think of this: It's 14 years later. You're a homeowner, right? Then, as a homeowner you'll tend to do homeowner things like trying to save money and the privacy of your home by doing as much as you can yourself.

Between 2000 and today, that box very possibly has been tampered with by a lot of people ....including the last person who lived there. Realistically, the situation is completely out of that guys hands seeing that you're looking at outdated permit work which more than likely didn't come with his personal warrantee.

Also, as you know, a reason your municipality requires you to seek out the services of a properly credentialed, trained, and experienced electrician for things like these is to keep you, your family, and your home safe.

It really does require special training to handle this sort of thing safely. I know you know that. But I think you know this too: on occasion, we do things we know we shouldn't. It's normal. However, this is perhaps one of the things we know we shouldn't do which we really shouldn't.

Stay in touch, though
GusHerb
join:2011-11-04
Chicago, IL

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said by defiant:

Gas heat.

I'll evaluate the need to go 200 amp service with contractor(s) I approach to rectify this debacle. It's a 1.5 story, 950 sq. ft. home, so I'm not sure there will be much of a need to expand. But, we'll see.

Whoever did the electrical renovation also felt the need to have circuits that power outlets throughout various parts of my home. I recently found out the sump is on the same circuit that serves outlets on the main floor and in a room upstairs.

What a PITA...

With a home like that and running gas heat It seems silly to go beyond a 100 amp service and would just be a waste of money. We upgraded my grandmothers 2,300 sqft all-gas ranch to a 100 amp service in 2008, it was easier and cheaper then going to 200 because we only had to change the line between the weatherhead and the panel, otherwise we'd have had to have the drop from the pole to weather head replaced too. The house has around 27 circuits but one 240 volt circuit and that's only for the condensing unit. Anyways, it gets along perfectly fine with 100 amps (and even got along well with just 60 amps prior to that)

Boooost
@151.190.254.x

Boooost to defiant

Anon

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950 sq ft with gas heat? Why would you ever want/need 200 amps?

mackey
Premium Member
join:2007-08-20

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mackey

Premium Member

Grow lights use a LOT of power you know

LazMan
Premium Member
join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA

LazMan to Boooost

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to Boooost
said by Boooost :

950 sq ft with gas heat? Why would you ever want/need 200 amps?

This - I've got a 1450 sq ft raised ranch, with a finished basement - roughly 2500 sq ft finished. Gas heat, gas hot water - never get anywhere near straining the 100A service.

As for the OP's panel - that's a hack job, at best, and a sad joke at worst. Get 3 quotes from 3 companies, and pick the guy you like best. The price is the price, it's the person doing the work that makes or breaks a job...