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drandersonin
@70.196.194.x

drandersonin

Anon

[Equipment] Issues with Antennas for Wilson Booster - very rural Colorado

 
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I moved to very rural spot in Colorado last year. There was an existing building that I used as a temporary setup while building my house this year. I put a Yagi and WiEx antenna up on that building to pull voice and data from the closest cell towers available (roughly 17 miles, 2k feet lower, almost due west). This was then routed to a Wilson Booster inside and an internal antenna inside that building. While not perfect, I was able to actually get calls and my outbound calls were decently clear on my Verizon phone.

When my house was finished I relocated the antennas to the antenna tower tied to the house. This was about 50 feet south of the original building location and about 10 feet higher. I assumed this would actually better my signal. I pointed the antennas to the same direction, which is a 'V' between the mountains 2 miles away in the direction of the cell towers. Measuring the signal strength using 2 cell phones I was in the -90 to -105 range which was actually worse than my original location. I can no longer get calls incoming (just Vm notifications) and outgoing calls are borderline unintelligible. As an aside I tried 'tweaking' the antenna orientations in small increments but with no appreciable results.

I am *guessing* that the shift of the antennas that 50 feet south, and pointing them through the "V" gap in the mountains 2 miles away is enough of an angle to get me too far away from those same cell towers? (See Picture)

If that is true, am I better of trying larger / more sensitive antennas? Or moving the antennas back to the original location and then having to dig a 50ft trench and running a coax cable from there? I'd rather have the antennas on the new house for simplicity, but I have to be able to get a decent cell signal...

Thanks for the help

xrayman
join:2008-12-09
Kansas City

xrayman

Member

My way of thinking, don't change something that works.
Dig the trench, 50 foot is not that long. I would put in 1/2" plastic pipe to make it easy to pull in new cable if ever needed.
I have found Parabolic Grid Antennas work the best for long distant signals.
You need to buy ones that are made for the frequency you want to pull in.

drandersonin
@172.243.250.x

drandersonin

Anon

Couple questions if I may, not being as familiar with these antennas:

1) Before, I had to have 2 separate antennas (see picture above) - one for voice and one for data on the Verizon network. Would this replace just the YAGI antenna or the Wi-Ex data one as well?
2) Any recommendations on make and model for this purpose?

xrayman
join:2008-12-09
Kansas City

xrayman

Member

Parabolic Grid Antennas are available for different frequencies. You will need to determine what Verizon is using in your area for Voice and for Data.
In my area I have found Verizon 3G is using 1900 Mhz and also have seen 800 Mhz band used out south of town. They also use 700 Mhz for LTE in my area.
I see many people have used antennas from excel-wireless.
All the users I have installed antennas for were connecting to 1900 Mhz and 2.5Ghz. I use the 2.4 GHz 24 dBi Die-cast Parabolic Grid Antennas from L-com. They have worked good for the 1900 Mhz and the 2.5Ghz bands.
Look here for installation tips: »evdotips.blogspot.com/20 ··· nna.html

AnonDude
@97.95.147.x

AnonDude

Anon

said by xrayman:

Parabolic Grid Antennas are available for different frequencies. You will need to determine what Verizon is using in your area for Voice and for Data.
In my area I have found Verizon 3G is using 1900 Mhz and also have seen 800 Mhz band used out south of town. They also use 700 Mhz for LTE in my area.
I see many people have used antennas from excel-wireless.
All the users I have installed antennas for were connecting to 1900 Mhz and 2.5Ghz. I use the 2.4 GHz 24 dBi Die-cast Parabolic Grid Antennas from L-com. They have worked good for the 1900 Mhz and the 2.5Ghz bands.
Look here for installation tips: »evdotips.blogspot.com/20 ··· nna.html

Verizon also uses AWS for LTE which is 2100 for downlink and 1700 for uplink. Obviously you'll need 2 different antennas if you want to get both 700 and AWS. Maybe 3 because I'm not sure you can even have an antenna that can effectively get in 1700 and 2100

drandersonin
@172.243.250.x

drandersonin to xrayman

Anon

to xrayman
said by xrayman:

Parabolic Grid Antennas are available for different frequencies. You will need to determine what Verizon is using in your area for Voice and for Data.
In my area I have found Verizon 3G is using 1900 Mhz and also have seen 800 Mhz band used out south of town. They also use 700 Mhz for LTE in my area.
I see many people have used antennas from excel-wireless.
All the users I have installed antennas for were connecting to 1900 Mhz and 2.5Ghz. I use the 2.4 GHz 24 dBi Die-cast Parabolic Grid Antennas from L-com. They have worked good for the 1900 Mhz and the 2.5Ghz bands.
Look here for installation tips: »evdotips.blogspot.com/20 ··· nna.html

Thanks for the details. I've been reading to get better up to speed and here's what I've found:

1) After a long / painful call with Verizon it appears they use 850 / 1900 in my area
2) My Yagi antenna (Wi-Ex YX025-CEL 7dBi ) is this one and appears to cover the 850 portion: »www.solidsignal.com/pvie ··· Cellular Antennas&sku=186639000069
3) My second antenna (YX023-PCS Outdoor Directional Signal PCS Antenna 13dBi) appears to cover the 1900 portion: YX023-PCS Outdoor Directional Signal PCS Antenna

If I understand your post and provided link (thanks for that):
- Even though my current antennas cover the frequencies, their strength (lower dBi) means they won't work as well for my distances
- For the 1900 range this is the antenna you were referring to: »www.l-com.com/wireless-a ··· onnector
- For the 850 range this appears to be the one mentioned in the article you had originally linked?: »www.l-com.com/wireless-a ··· -antenna

Some questions:
- Comparing the 850 range antennas, my current is 13dBi while the parabolic is 15dBi, is that significant enough of a difference to make it worthwhile?
- Should I mount just the 2 parabolics or mount all 4 and tie all 4 together since I have the other 2?

Thanks for the time and explanations, they are appreciated.

xrayman
join:2008-12-09
Kansas City

xrayman

Member

If you don't have a 100% clear line of sight to the tower, I think you will see improvement using the Parabolic Grid Antennas over an Yagi.
The 2.4 GHz 24 dBi Grid Antenna should produce a very nice signal gain on the 1900 Mhz band.
Go with only the new antennas.
ke4pym
Premium Member
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC

ke4pym to drandersonin

Premium Member

to drandersonin
You don't need to spend time on the phone with VZW to discover what frequencies they're using.

If you have an Android device, grab LTE Discovery from the store.

Fantastic little app.

drandersonin
@172.243.250.x

drandersonin to xrayman

Anon

to xrayman
said by xrayman:

If you don't have a 100% clear line of sight to the tower, I think you will see improvement using the Parabolic Grid Antennas over an Yagi.
The 2.4 GHz 24 dBi Grid Antenna should produce a very nice signal gain on the 1900 Mhz band.
Go with only the new antennas.

Ordered the two antennas, will get them bolted up next week and pull the others down. Thanks for the help, hopefully this gets me back up and running.
drandersonin

drandersonin to ke4pym

Anon

to ke4pym
Downloaded the app, has a lot of info. I found the directional antenna to point in directions / change directions fairly readily towards areas where I know there are no cell towers within 20 miles (its a very rural area, not many towns around).

I was also hoping to see the UL and DL frequencies but don't seem to be showing those as well, unsure why. I'll keep playing with it, it would be nice to get a more definitive lock on the specific direction to point these antennas two vs best guesses and bracketing.
ke4pym
Premium Member
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC

ke4pym

Premium Member

Yeah, that pointer thingy is jacked.

I can stand next to a known tower and it points the wrong direction.

It shows the UL/DL freq's on my S4. Or did. The app just updated. They might have made that a paid feature.

xrayman
join:2008-12-09
Kansas City

xrayman to drandersonin

Member

to drandersonin
With the use of the Parabolic Grid Antennas you need to aim very accurately. I use Google Earth to map a line to the tower and then locate local landmarks as a guide. After that fine tune for best signal.
mikeluscher159
join:2011-09-04

mikeluscher159 to ke4pym

Member

to ke4pym
Yeah, he changed up the app. And the pointer never worked on VZ, as they scramble the data.
That apps been a godsend to many people like myself, tracking Band 4 and now 2 rollout on VZ. The first 2 weeks of Google Rewards paid for the pro app, and with how active he is across several forums, I think it was money well spent.

drandersonin
@172.243.250.x

drandersonin to xrayman

Anon

to xrayman
Antennas arrived today, started the assembly and quickly noted the connectors to the antennas are not RG6 compatible.

Had a quick email exchange with L-Com and their response is that these are 50oHm antennas not compatible with 75oHm RG6 cables and the parts they recommended total another $120 on top of the $140 I've already dropped on the antennas.

I was expecting to be able to plug and play this setup into my existing, just swapping antennas. Does anyone have thoughts on how to simplify this / decrease the outlay to get this working?

Thanks..

xrayman
join:2008-12-09
Kansas City

1 edit

xrayman

Member

I use only Low Loss 400-Series cable to connect the systems I install.
Use the shortest cables as possible to reduce signal loss.

Also I use COAX-SEAL #104 Hand Moldable Plastic Weatherproofing Tape on all outdoor cable connections. A little moisture in a connector will destroy a good signal in short order.

drandersonin
@172.243.250.x

drandersonin

Anon

I cannot readily replace all my RG6 cabling and the related booster equipment I have setup already unfortunately. Are there adapters to go from 400 series to RG6 connections? And what will the issue be using a 75oHm RG6 cable with 50oHm antennas?

If this setup won't work, I'll have to return these antennas and find ones compatible with my RG6 architecture - recommendations if I have to go that route?

Thanks

xrayman
join:2008-12-09
Kansas City

xrayman

Member

Yes adapters are available to mate up about any configuration.
The impedance mismatch will reduce signal. All system components should be of the same impedance for best results.
When designing antenna systems to pull in weak signals it is advisable to keep the number of cable adapters to a minimum.

drandersonin
@172.243.250.x

drandersonin

Anon

said by xrayman:

Yes adapters are available to mate up about any configuration.
The impedance mismatch will reduce signal. All system components should be of the same impedance for best results.
When designing antenna systems to pull in weak signals it is advisable to keep the number of cable adapters to a minimum.

Thanks for the quick responses. To the above:
- Impedance mismatch: Will this negate the 'gain' I was going to get from these antennas? Again, I have to stick with my RG6 architecture so I'm trying to confirm the antennas are now worth keeping
- Adapters: Do you have an recommendations for the 400 series to RG6 adapters?

xrayman
join:2008-12-09
Kansas City

1 edit

xrayman

Member

The 400 series cable is just cable. It comes with many types of ends. Most common is the N connector, male and female. Same for the RG6 cable. You will need to compare what you have to what adapter is needed.
I can give one good bit of advice about coaxial connectors. The gender is determined by the inner most pin on the connector. To add to the mix, some will be available in reverse gender. Confusing I know, but that is the nature of the beast.
One of the most comprehensive sites for RF adapters is eur-am.com, but that site appears to be offline at this time.
Max Signal
Premium Member
join:2008-03-07
Buffalo, NY

Max Signal

Premium Member

Here is another good site I found for connectors.

»store.hawkesintl.com/

drandersonin
@172.243.250.x

drandersonin to xrayman

Anon

to xrayman
Researched the impedance mismatch, appears that a 75 to 50 ohms over a short coax run will have a minimal impact. Not ideal, but also not critical:
1) »forums.radioreference.co ··· nna.html
2) »www.dkdinst.com/articles ··· tes.html

Also found these connectors:
»www.amazon.com/Wilson-El ··· 2+wilson

With these I should be able to directly connect these to the antennas and then hook everything up with my current RG6 based setup.

If any of this sounds wrong please advise, I can still edit the order...

xrayman
join:2008-12-09
Kansas City

xrayman to drandersonin

Member

to drandersonin
If it was my installation I would use the 400 series cable from the antenna down to the Wilson booster. Keep this cable as short as possible. Cables after the booster not as critical. Best of luck with your project.

fourboxers
Mod
join:2003-05-04
Toronto

fourboxers to drandersonin

Mod

to drandersonin
bump for OP to update

drandersonin
@172.243.250.x

drandersonin

Anon

Thanks to fourboxers for the help.

I wanted to post up my results for anyone contemplating a similar issue.

In a nutshell, my signal strength actually dropped 15dBM across all areas as a result of the new antennas. I confirmed the direction they were pointing in, the connections themselves, but the result remained the same. Unfortunately I disconnected the newer high gain antennas as my older ones were outperforming them.

It is possible that the signal attenuation using a mix of 75 and 50oHm parts in the network caused the issue, or perhaps the antennas were not pointing the 'exact' way they should (although they were aligned right with my existing directional antennas) and that would explain the lack of performance. But in the worst case I had expected to 'break even' with my signal strength levels and most likely improve them given the higher gain antennas not lose 15dBm. So in my case, given I cannot rewire my existing network inside the house to match the antenna needs, I'll have to send these back for returns.

Hope this helps others juggling the same decision, or what to at least consider to increase their chances.
drandersonin

drandersonin

Anon

Sorry, to clarify:

"actually dropped 15dBM" = signal strength got worse / weaker

AnonDude
@charter.com

AnonDude to drandersonin

Anon

to drandersonin
No you shouldn't mix 75 and 50. You should one or the other.