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Pher9999
join:2011-07-06
Saucier, MS

Pher9999

Member

[Electrical] 16kw Generator install quote

Today, met with an electrician for a quote from Generac for a whole home generator with Auto transfer switch. Just wanted to get an idea if this is way too much or not price wise. We are getting quotes so we can budget accordingly.

Estimate is for $8200
Include:
16kw Air-cooled Standby generator
4" Prefab concrete slab.
200amp Auto transfer switch.
Separate Neutrals and grounds in the main panel - Currently mixed in the panel
Generator battery
tutorial on how to use the generator
Electrical permits and inspections.

The panel was swapped out about 10 years ago, upgraded to 200 amp from 100 then too.

Oil furnace, Well, Propane stove. so nothing major electrical other than well and Dryer. and window AC units in Summer.

This doesn't include the propane tanks or install of tanks, That would be through a separate company, whether we stay with our current provider or switch or buy our own tanks.

If it wasn't for my elderly parents I would go with a manual transfer switch and gas generator, but for ease and potential bigger medical reasons we want the standby generator.

cybersaga
join:2011-12-19
Selby, ON

cybersaga

Member

The quote sounds reasonable to me. There's a lot of labour in there, and a big, honkin' generator, which would cost $3500 on it's own: »www.generac.com/all-prod ··· e-switch

That is, if it's the Guardian line they're offering you. But the other product lines are about the same price for that size.

That may be oversized for your needs. Have you or they actually calculated how much power you would need? You may be able to knock a grand off, depending on the size you really need. Their cheapest model (in the Guardian line anyway) is $2189 on their site: »www.generac.com/all-prod ··· 8kw-6245

But all that labour would still be required.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt to Pher9999

Member

to Pher9999
said by Pher9999:

Oil furnace

Before you install a propane fueled generator, since you already have an oil supply consider a diesel fueled generator. Add up the cost of the propane fueled generator and the fuel tank. When I inquired about the cost to install a 20 KW Generac the generator cost over $8,000.00 installed. The roadblock was over $4,000 to install a 500 gallon underground propane tank. I have not yet installed a generator.

When I was visiting a relative in New England I was introduced to a friend of theirs that chose to install a diesel generator rather than a propane generator because they had an oil furnace, a 500 gallon fuel tank and all appliances were electric. The combined cost of an underground propane tank and propane generator cost more than the diesel generator and tank maintenance. There was no issue regarding deterioration of stored fuel because it was constantly being used and replaced. One of the things they did to prevent damage to the diesel engine was to have their tank cleaned and the fuel oil replaced with Off Road Diesel, since heating fuel oil does not have a cetane rating (As discussed in this article: »alternativefuels.about.c ··· tane.htm) and may contain excessive sulfur. Highway use tax is not applied to off road diesel so the price per gallon is almost the same as fuel oil. Check with your fuel oil dealer. If you are considering a diesel generator, determine if the cost of the generator includes the transfer switch.

Raphion
join:2000-10-14
Samsara

Raphion to cybersaga

Member

to cybersaga
+1 on re-assessing the generator sizing. 16kw is a monster of a generator for a house with "nothing major electrical". An oversized generator doesn't just waste money at purchase, it wastes fuel in use by running below it's optimal power range.

John Galt6
Forward, March
Premium Member
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp

John Galt6 to Pher9999

Premium Member

to Pher9999
Generators like to see ~60-70% loading on a continual basis. This provides enough reserve capacity for starting motors and such without causing major dips in the voltage, but doesn't run them into the ground by running them at max capacity.

Make sure the generator is rated for your local environment. The small local church here bought a Generac for their building and it is rotting away in the coastal environment. They will get 5 years max out of it before it fails. How unfortunate...

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

nunya to Pher9999

MVM

to Pher9999
Seems a little high to me.
How far is the generator from the main panel?
There's not much difference between wholesale and retain on generators, especially Generac.
If the quote was for a full turn up (everything included) -- I'd still call it high, but I don't know the specifics of your situation.

I know a lot of contractors who do not bother to do a load calculation when installing a generator. The literally add everything up the essentials and multiply by 20%!
Then they pick the next size up generator. It sounds crazy, but it happens more often than you think. This is what they are teaching them at the manufacturers sales seminar.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt to Raphion

Member

to Raphion
said by Raphion:

An oversized generator doesn't just waste money at purchase, it wastes fuel in use by running below it's optimal power range.

I was not able to find a 8Kw Generac packaged with a whole house transfer switch on the Generac website. The lowest power unit packaged with a whole house transfer switch is 11Kw. Compare the 8Kw generator at full load to the 16Kw generator at half load.

Pher9999
join:2011-07-06
Saucier, MS

Pher9999

Member

1) No on the diesel generators. Oil tank is buried in the front of the house. Once we go to touch it, All sorts of EPA rules come into effect and have to replace and above ground and such.

2) Generator would be about 3-5 feet from the meter pan, which is right behind the main panel.

3) we are in Southern NY, Outer northern suburbs of NYC.

4) he did a quote for the 11kw off hand, at about $6600.

5) I plan to do a load calc on the house this weekend anyways.

cybersaga
join:2011-12-19
Selby, ON

cybersaga

Member

In North America, it's the labor costs that kill you every time. Based on those numbers, the labor is about half of the cost, which seems to be what the ratio usually is for any construction job.

When you think of it, they'll need at least one electrician, a couple guys to pour the concrete, a couple guys to unload and place the generator (on another day after the concrete sets), and the guy that trains you to use the generator (who may be the same as one of the others, but may not be). You'll likely have at least 3 guys working at your house over at least two days. That's expensive for the company.

They also want to make their money back for the sales guy that gave you the quote.
ke4pym
Premium Member
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC

ke4pym to Pher9999

Premium Member

to Pher9999
said by Pher9999:

1) No on the diesel generators. Oil tank is buried in the front of the house. Once we go to touch it, All sorts of EPA rules come into effect and have to replace and above ground and such.

You're not kidding. A friend of mine in Jersey sneezed on his tank wrong. $30k and 100 dump trucks of removed soil later, he finally has his yard back.

Thankfully, insurance picked up the tab.

Grumpy4
Premium Member
join:2001-07-28
NW CT

Grumpy4 to Pher9999

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to Pher9999
I live an hour or so from you, and 'round here electricians ALL make around $90 an hour, so consequently I didn't find those quotes to be too bad. There is no "union hall call an apprentice" scenario available either.

Forgive me if this is obvious, but be sure you understand the volume of fuel the LP units use. The generator's on line spec sheet should show you the volume of fuel required, so as to multiply by the average price of fuel to figure daily fuel costs. In your location, of which I am very familiar with your climate, a 3 day supply of generator fuel or more would not be out of the question to allow replenishment if a week long power outage happens.

You might find, and I'm not suggesting this as an option with elderly folks in the house, but, it may well be cheaper to go to a motel and eat out 3 times a day than to buy that much LP.

LP = 91,000 BTU per gallon
#2 oil = 138,500 BTU per gallon
Your local pricing will complete the equation

As you are likely aware though, diesel gen sets are off the hook expensive to buy.

Pher9999
join:2011-07-06
Saucier, MS

Pher9999

Member

using the basic usage from the site, 1.9Gph for half load, 3.1 full load, a 100# tank holds 22.9 Gallons will last 12 hours on half load. 8 hours on full load. As to real world usage I'm not entirely sure, but I'm gonna meet with a couple of propane vendors over the few weeks, to get best options for all.

Grumpy4
Premium Member
join:2001-07-28
NW CT

4 edits

Grumpy4

Premium Member

So the average of 1.9 and 3.1 is 2.5 gallons per hour
One day , 24 hours = 60 gallons of LP at average of 2.5 per hour in fuel

12/16 MA average price per
»www.mass.gov/eea/energy- ··· eys.html

Let's just call it $3 per LP gallon X 60 gallons usage per 24 hours = $180 in fuel for 24 hours. Rough numbers, but that is pretty close to where it's at.

Lets do it at half load - 1.9 X 24 = 45.6 gallons per day X $3 a gallon for LP = $136.80 per day.

You will need (IMO anyway) enough dedicated (or allocated on a shared storage) to the generator LP fuel storage for at least 50 gallons per day * X days until the plows can dig you out and allow for your LP vendor to deliver replenishment fuel. As you know your area is susceptible to week long and multi week long outages. I'm an hour away from you and neighbors within 10 miles of me were down two weeks in recent years.

A random note to be aware of - most generator enclosures are not mouse proof as delivered from the factory. Mice love the nooks and crannies of what lay beneath engine and radiator shrouds and electrical boxes. Some additional methods to keep them out, like hardware cloth here and there could well be a very good idea. I asked the Onan tech who installed a gen set for my father what works on mice - moth balls, dryer sheets? He has been doing Onan installs for nearly 20 years. He replied: "Nothing." "None of that stuff really works in the long run." I'm not trying to blow off having a gen set, it's just that if an engine is air cooled, a mouse nest can be an engine killer. Lawn mower engines are often a mouse's best friend.
Just sayin'

It is not my intention to be negative regarding gen sets - just sharing some of the situations I encountered when specing a gen set myself. I did go with pricey LP for my father's unit for a number of reasons. I'm not bashing LP - just allowing as how it ain't cheap to feed those puppies.

I am inclined to believe that in our region, one in all practical terms HAS to have a home generator. I went with a gas powered 8K for my own house, but if I'm not at home, it won't do much good. I bought what I could afford, the result being the hardest way to do it, but thankfully I'm still young enough to deal with stale gasoline transfer and extension cords until i can get it wired into the panel properly. It still beats using the fireplace for heat which we did a few years ago. I have a lot of camping cooking and lighting gear, and a gas grill, so we got by for a week, and luckily the post storm temps didn't freeze our pipes, but in a word - it sucked.

Pher9999
join:2011-07-06
Saucier, MS

Pher9999

Member

Understandable, Always good to hear all sides of a major task. We know refueling is tough during a potential week long outage. Same goes for oil for the furnace. trying to stay ahead of pricing and keep the tank ful to not run out in the middle of february. Since our stove/oven is propane we still use it regularly. plus we are wanting to possibly get a disconnect on the deck for the BBQ.
Critsmcgee
join:2011-12-02

Critsmcgee to cybersaga

Member

to cybersaga
said by cybersaga:

In North America, it's the labor costs that kill you every time. Based on those numbers, the labor is about half of the cost, which seems to be what the ratio usually is for any construction job.

When you think of it, they'll need at least one electrician, a couple guys to pour the concrete, a couple guys to unload and place the generator (on another day after the concrete sets), and the guy that trains you to use the generator (who may be the same as one of the others, but may not be). You'll likely have at least 3 guys working at your house over at least two days. That's expensive for the company.

They also want to make their money back for the sales guy that gave you the quote.

Plus overhead like phones, power, gas, insurance, tools, licenses, workman's comp, etc.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt to Grumpy4

Member

to Grumpy4
said by Grumpy4:

Lawn mower engines are often a mouse's best friend.

Don't forget ants and age. A couple we know, renovated a home they purchased in 1982 and had all appliances in the home fueled with propane. At that time propane was the lowest cost fuel. In early 2004 they were in their late 60's, so they had a 20Kw Generac air cooled generator installed so they could run their two central air conditioners and have power during a power outage.

In September 2004 a hurricane cut off power for eight days. They ran the generator 24 X 7. After the power outage had lasted four days one of the propane dealers trucks showed up and the driver refilled the tank and presented them with a bill for over $300.00 for fuel. The tank had been filled two or three weeks before. That amount of fuel normally lasted several months. So they decided to ration their electric power to about six hours a day. On the same day their tank was refilled, the service company that installed the generator called them and advised them the oil had to be changed in order to keep their warranty in effect. After the routine maintenance was completed they were presented with a bill for $100+ dollars for service.

After the generator was installed for five years they had several cases of generator failure. In one case the trickle charger failed and the battery died resulting in no backup power. In another case ants shorted out a control board which cost about $500.00 to replace. The generator has turned into a money pit. Like any device with an internal combustion engine maintenance costs increases as the generator ages. The biggest PITA is that after the eight day outage in 2004 there have been no more then one or two power outages a year, with each power outage lasting on more than 4 hours and most 45 minutes. So Grumpy is correct.

Pher9999
join:2011-07-06
Saucier, MS

Pher9999

Member

We went through Sandy and storms that year, without power for days. and we started this process again to looking into a Generator. Then 2 years of no outages. other than sporatic 1-2 hours here or there. This year alone we;ve had 3 12+ hour outages. If the oil tank for the house was above ground, then I'd look into a diesel generator. My father is 72,with a bunch of medical problems, at this point 24 hours in the house with no heat is very harmful to him. If it wasn't for my parents we'd really go for a portable generator and power essentials.

I can power the phone,internet, cell tower, and a laptop or tv off the car dc/ac converter.

the quote seemed high to me, but I was thinking more like $6000 as the high side not including fuel source/setup. $8000 still seemed with in reason just on the high side. It was the Electrician who came gave the quote. He was refered to me by generac.

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

nunya

MVM

Prices vary wildly by locale. A 16 kW Generac with ATS and composite pad delivered to your door is $3,500.00 Figure $150 to "planning and zoning". Figure labor at $1,200 (high considering it's next to the meter). Figure materials $800 (high again since it's next to meter).
I think $6K would be more reasonable.
I usually sub out to a licensed gas guy or have the customer hire the gas company to handle that portion. That can be anywhere from $250 - infinity. It's *usually* less than $1k for existing NG / LPG customers.
Right now, propane is less than $2 per delivered gallon. I hear that if the winter continues to be mild, it could dip below $1 before Spring.

Grumpy4
Premium Member
join:2001-07-28
NW CT

1 edit

Grumpy4

Premium Member

But you gotta realize - he's within a short hitch hike to NYC cost of living and pricing. In fact, his cost of living might even exceed NYC due to his location and a nearby NYC commuter highway.

bigpower
@69.118.94.x

bigpower to Pher9999

Anon

to Pher9999
If you are worried about oil, installing another tank/replacement seems like hands down a good plan. If you need to pay for a tank anyway why not get a tank that can be used for heating oil and in the off chance the power goes out... used for the generator. I'd get it out of the ground ASAP anyway... if it leaks, oh man, huge problem and good luck knowing. I'd pull it and get a 500gal or more tank...

16kw seems crazy large... but meh... I guess if you want to run AC in the summer... might need that size.

I'd really look at a diesel... then again price... might make it not worth it, I'm about 20min north of you and we really don't lose power to the point of a standby generator being needed... so the extra cost of diesel... may not be worth it. But the benefit of getting the tank out of the ground...

mackey
Premium Member
join:2007-08-20

2 recommendations

mackey

Premium Member

said by bigpower :

I'd pull it

In the middle of the night. With a trailer ready to go. And a scrap metal dealer or someone who wants it lined up to take delivery at 4am. With the landscaper getting there no later then 6

bigpower
@69.118.94.x

bigpower

Anon

A buried tank is just a problem, have fun selling the house with one... Don't pull it then just stop using it... and hide the fill, whatever I'd get rid of it... when it leaks... ya have tons of fun with that, needing to dig ALL the contaminated soil out to be trucked off...

I seen a guy get screwed on a house with huge water in the basement issues,... owner said it had no basement (lol) yet EVEN that guy wanted testing done for ground contamination due to a old buried tank that was removed prior. So as we can tell... the guy hid a whole basement and got away with it... but he had to test for oil in the ground.

Again I'd remove it...

Corehhi
join:2002-01-28
Bluffton, SC

Corehhi

Member

Many over the years have just cut off the top and filled over their tanks. I can see why. Especially commercial places with big tanks in the ground. Not saying it's a good thing but on an old tank which probably has leaked it really is pointless to fool with it at all.

pende_tim
Premium Member
join:2004-01-04
Selbyville, DE

pende_tim to Pher9999

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to Pher9999
said by Pher9999:

No on the diesel generators. Oil tank is buried in the front of the house. Once we go to touch it, All sorts of EPA rules come into effect and have to replace and above ground and such

I would at least get a quote from a licensed person to remove the tank and install a double wall tank in the basement.

Do they have tank insurance?

The time to remove the tank is BEFORE it leaks, if it leaks, just bend over......
I had my 25 year old 1000 gal tank pulled a couple of years ago and the cost was around $4,000 for removal, testing, installing the new tanks in the basement including permits etc.

Selling a home with a buried tank is next to impossible and you will sleep a lot better knowing the risk is gone.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt

Member

said by pende_tim:

I would at least get a quote from a licensed person to remove the tank and install a double wall tank in the basement.

Tanks:

»www.roth-usa.com/product ··· _dwt.cfm

Your Welcome!

pende_tim
Premium Member
join:2004-01-04
Selbyville, DE

pende_tim

Premium Member

I put in two of the 275 gal ones piped together.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt to bigpower

Member

to bigpower
said by bigpower :

might make it not worth it, I'm about 20min north of you and we really don't lose power to the point of a standby generator being needed

There have been many threads in this forum regarding permanently installed standby generators. The one factor I have never seen discussed, is how long a generator will remain maintainable, before it becomes to costly to maintain by type: Air Cooled, Water Cooled Propane/Natural Gas and Diesel. Any generator will degenerate as it ages. Can anyone reading this thread that has experience with this issue comment.

Pher9999
join:2011-07-06
Saucier, MS

Pher9999

Member

Currently the cost to pull and move the oil tank would wipe out any other plans. I'm not writing off diesel, but it's cost would be higher than we would want to get into. Around here most oil tanks are buried and homes are sold with them that way. Yes we are aware of the costs of an oil leak and such. Yes 16kw maybe overkill, still working out the calculations to get the right size and options from other vendors.

LazMan
Premium Member
join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA

1 recommendation

LazMan to Mr Matt

Premium Member

to Mr Matt
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

In my experience, water cooled diesel's last longest... I have one Deutz diesel from the 60's thats still in service, running strong.

But - it's how the engine and gennie are maintained that determines life more then anything else, in my experience. A well maintained middle of the road package will outlast a poorly maintained high-end system, in most circumstances...
Speedy Petey
join:2008-01-19

4 recommendations

Speedy Petey to Grumpy4

Member

to Grumpy4
said by Grumpy4:

I live an hour or so from you, and 'round here electricians ALL make around $90 an hour, ....

Sorry, I know it's OT but I have to comment.
They DO NOT "make" $90 an hour. They charge that much.
If they make $25-30 out of that $90 they are lucky.