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PX Eliezer1
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join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

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PX Eliezer1

Premium Member

AV: So f****** frustrating....

Trying to install some sort of decent AV program, and at this point even willing to pay money rather than freeware.

But AARGH!

Kaspersky starts to install and informs me that it's installing Microsoft Dot Net. I don't want Microsoft Dot Net. There was no advance warning, no chance to say no, it just took advantage of the situation. Obviously this is Cosbyware.

BullGuard downloads a small downloader program, then supposedly downloads the full program. But a half hour goes by, nothing is happening, there is nothing on the screen. I end up having to remove lots of temp files afterwards.

Bitdefender won't work properly, and the controls are dark, dark, like it belongs in the basement of the Addams Family.

eScan refuses to install because it says I have Malwarebytes---even though my MWB is the free version that does NOT run resident (does not actively protect).

Running fully updated Windows7 on this machine btw.

MSSE is garbage of course. AVG probably not far behind.

Avast is like the crazy girlfriend who crashes your car, and Avira is the crazy girlfriend who wants to put stuff in your house that you don't want there like toolbars.

I'm not even necessarily looking for suggestions (but wouldn't mind one).

Rather, though, I lament what has happened to the AV market.

Folks here are supposed to be knowledgeable--I hope that I am a little bit myself anyway---WTH are non-technical people supposed to do?

It's a "bungle" out there.

CCat
We're all quite mad here
MVM
join:2005-12-06
Wonderland

CCat

MVM

Re: AV: So fucking frustrating....

I'm running ESET/NOD32 on my Win7 Pro x64 desktop and laptop.
Haven't had any problems on either machine.
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

1 recommendation

Mele20 to PX Eliezer1

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to PX Eliezer1
Don't ever buy a Dell computer. They have come with .NET installed since the very first .NET from Microsoft many years ago. .NET is needed for USEFUL (at least some of it is) Dell software. I would assume Kaspersky needs to install .NET for the same reason. That doesn't make it "Cosbyware".

Try NOD32.
dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

1 edit

dave to PX Eliezer1

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to PX Eliezer1
I'm pretty sure Windows 7 has .NET 3.5 as a component of the standard installation.

Edit: yes, it does.
dave

1 edit

dave to PX Eliezer1

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to PX Eliezer1
So why are you so against .NET?

Every non-trivial programming language requires runtime support code. Such code is delivered:

1. With the OS
2. By requiring the user to install it before apps can be installed
3. By having the app installer install it
4. By linking the code inside the app

Item #4 used to be fairly normal, in the distant past. It leads to having multiple copies of the runtime code. This isn't so bad for small runtimes, but it does mean that when there's a bug, every single app using the buggy routine potentially needs to be updated.

For C++, the standard Windows programming language since around 1990, methods #1 and #3 were usual (msvcrt*.*)

For C#, today's standard Windows programming language, and C++.NET or whatever they're calling it nowadays (a bastard mix of C++ with managed code), it's still methods #1 and #3. I suspect that the only significant difference is that Windows Update will update it, and makes it all too clear when there's an update to the runtime. Well, that and version proliferation, which I suppose was intended to help avoid past compatibility issues by not promising compatibility.

Edited to fix one of those typos you only notice hours later.

Cartel
Intel inside Your sensitive data outside
Premium Member
join:2006-09-13
Chilliwack, BC

Cartel to PX Eliezer1

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to PX Eliezer1
Still using antivir version 9 here

andyross
MVM
join:2003-05-04
Aurora, IL

andyross to PX Eliezer1

MVM

to PX Eliezer1
What is the paranoia about .NET? Why do so many people hate it? As mentioned, some versions are pre-installed as part of Windows, as some Windows components use it.

I can only think that some older versions had issues, and that fed the paranoia? My only complaint about .NET is that the Windows Updates for them often take quite awhile to install.
scross
join:2002-09-13
USA

2 edits

scross to PX Eliezer1

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to PX Eliezer1
Avast has been my product of choice for the past few years. It works quite well most of the time and hasn't yet done anything to make me want to nuke it, but it has been growing a bit "naggy" as of late.

The real, long-term solution to the general malware problem is for folks to start making the (inevitable) transition away from Windows sooner rather than later. Windows is not, never has been, and never will be (IMO) anything like "secure". Even folks I know who were die-hard "Windows everywhere - and nothing but Windows" fans up until maybe a couple of years ago are now regretting this decision and trying to hedge their bets. I'm hearing constant complaints from them now about the costs of upgrading to the latest and greatest versions of Windows and Windows-based products - giving them little or nothing in return for their money in the way of added functionality or security - and how they're on a search for alternatives. They're being told by upper management to explore other, less-expensive options before going down the upgrade path - and how if they DO ultimately go down that path, that it may very well be for the last time, too.
doppler
join:2003-03-31
Blue Point, NY

doppler to PX Eliezer1

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to PX Eliezer1
OOOU, A hot topic article with such an appropriate title!!!

F*x i*!

camper
just visiting this planet
Premium Member
join:2010-03-21
Bethel, CT

camper to PX Eliezer1

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to PX Eliezer1
said by PX Eliezer1:

Avast is like the crazy girlfriend who crashes your car

 
As with all installs I do, I always go directly to the Custom Install option and install ONLY the stuff I want, and not the whole kitchen sink that the vendor wants to install on my computer.

In the case of Avast (or any AV, for that matter), I install only the file system shield, i.e., the part that actually does anti-virus checking.

All the other bloat that Avast wants to install on my computer stays in the install file.

StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

2 recommendations

StuartMW to andyross

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to andyross
said by andyross:

What is the paranoia about .NET? Why do so many people hate it?

.NET is Microsoft's answer to Oracle's Java. In case you don't know Sun (who owned Java at the time) sued MS a decade or so ago as they created their own JVM. Sun won. MS invented .NET since they couldn't use their own JVM.

.NET applications are interpreted. They're not in native (machine) code. That makes them slower. Plus they require a lot more memory. The assumption is that everyone has fast machines with lots of RAM so "so what?".

That said PC programmers seem to love .NET probably because MS successfully marketed it to them. I saw that personally about 5 years ago. I'm not sure MS even produces a toolset that produces native code anymore.

In my experience, as a user, .NET applications sometimes have issues on some machines especially when it comes to dealing with hardware. I'm not sure if that's because of the .NET framework or poor app programming. Either way it is very annoying to have an app work on one machine but not another (of a different type).

Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
TP-Link Archer C7
Linksys WRT54GS
Linksys WRT54G v4

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Bill_MI to andyross

MVM

to andyross
said by andyross:

What is the paranoia about .NET? Why do so many people hate it?

I'm sure you're aware it's the evolution of Visual Basic which promotes lazy code that runs like a cow with lead boots in a mud patch. The reputation in a lot of places remains "Even a chimp can program with .NET". You noticed how the updates tend to reflect the pig that it is but did you notice how updates have had a history of suspicious names and new bloated versions forced onto systems? To me, it's always represented the epitome of what people hate about Microsoft.

Unfortunately, people are stuck with it.

EDIT: StuartMW mad me look. I know some programmers that think of .NET as the evolution of Visual Basic and the timing is right... but it's arguably not.
redwolfe_98
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join:2001-06-11

redwolfe_98 to PX Eliezer1

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to PX Eliezer1
if you look at the kaspersky program's "system requirements", one of the requirements is "NETFramework 4", so it isn't exactly correct to say that the end-user isn't informed about it..

the same with "bitdefender": if you look at the "system requirements", one of the requirements is "NETFramework 4"..

"windows 8/8.1" comes with "NETFramework 3.5" and "NETFramework 4" bundled in it, though NETFramework 3.5 is not "enabled", by default..

i don't know about other av-programs and what their "system requirements" are..

i use the premium version of the "avira" av-program and, for the moment, it doesn't require "NETFramework 4", but that might be changing, soon..

StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

StuartMW to Bill_MI

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to Bill_MI
said by Bill_MI:

I know some programmers that think of .NET as the evolution of Visual Basic...

Actually you can write .NET applications in many computer languages (C++, C# etc). Visual Basic is just another one of them.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.N ··· 28CLI.29
dave
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join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

dave to StuartMW

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to StuartMW
.NET and Java use just-in-time compilation in preference to interpretation.

Sure, you pay the translation overhead, but as you say, "so what?". The exact sort of code that these languages are used for does execute mostly on reasonably-provisioned machines.

That's sort of irrelevant to the topic, though, because even if one compiled C# or Java ahead of time, which is technically feasible, it would still need a runtime support engine, which would still get updated via Windows Update.

The benefit of Java and C# to customers is that they do not have unsafe pointers. This eliminates a whole class of programmer-caused bugs, such as the typical buffer-overflow problem. They have garbage collection, which eliminates programmers of the responsibility to free unused memory: leaks are logically impossible.

The problems with C (and its inheritor, C++) is that they're low level languages. People such as I am perfectly capable of using them in a safe manner but the average programmer has demonstrated that they cannot. Thus we need higher-level languages for robustness: 1970-vintage tools on 21st-century-connected systems isn't working.

I've seen this show before, by the way. Back then it was people complaining about writing operating system code in inefficient languages such as C, when it was obvious they could do a better job coding in assembler (I think I've argued that side myself). Yeah, yeah, but it doesn't scale.
dave

4 recommendations

dave to Bill_MI

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to Bill_MI
Believe me, a poor programmer can write poor code in any programming language.

Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
TP-Link Archer C7
Linksys WRT54GS
Linksys WRT54G v4

5 recommendations

Bill_MI

MVM

said by dave:

Believe me, a poor programmer can write poor code in any programming language.

But it probably sucks *faster*!
dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

dave to StuartMW

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to StuartMW
said by StuartMW:

case you don't know Sun (who owned Java at the time) sued MS a decade or so ago as they created their own JVM.

The suit wasn't because Microsoft implemented a JVM - they were perfectly entitled to do that, as far as I recall. Sun's beef was that Microsoft didn't implement the entire Sun JVM spec, and they did implement extensions.

Ironically in the context of this subthread, some of the Microsoft divergence from standard was to improve runtime efficiency.

I *think* I remember that J++ might used ahead-of-time 'traditional' compilation, but it's been too many years now.

StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

StuartMW to dave

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to dave
said by dave:

This eliminates a whole class of programmer-caused bugs...

True. One can hire a bunch of coding "monkeys" since the language will "hold their hands" to prevent them doing dumb stuff (i.e. being incompetent). That is seen as "progress".

PS: The monkeys can also ignore the whole idea of "hardware". Since everything is done for you all that "technical stuff" can be safely ignored.
StuartMW

StuartMW to dave

Premium Member

to dave
said by dave:

The suit wasn't because Microsoft implemented a JVM...

You may be right. I don't remember the details and didn't look it up. Either way .NET was the result.

Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
TP-Link Archer C7
Linksys WRT54GS
Linksys WRT54G v4

Bill_MI to dave

MVM

to dave
said by dave:

The problems with C (and its inheritor, C++) is that they're low level languages. People such as I am perfectly capable of using them in a safe manner but the average programmer has demonstrated that they cannot. Thus we need higher-level languages for robustness: 1970-vintage tools on 21st-century-connected systems isn't working.

Hi Dave - too true. I was racking my brain, do you remember Microsoft promoting an "Anyone Can Program" environment. Was it VB or early .NET? I think it was the latter. I haven't seen this approach in ages, though.

StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

StuartMW

Premium Member

said by Bill_MI:

...do you remember Microsoft promoting an "Anyone Can Program" environment.

No. But I do remember marketing guys showing off their Visual Basic apps and saying stuff like "who needs programmers?".
dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

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dave to StuartMW

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to StuartMW
You have it backwards. The code monkeys get hired anyway, because (warning: self-aggrandizing statement follows) there aren't enough good programmers to go around. So the best that we can do is to limit the scope for errors.

But even competent programmers like languages that do the grunt work. I'm now writing in Java(*) after maybe a decade of hardcore C++, and find it quite refreshing. Even if the language tends to be a little prolix.

(*) No, my code doesn't run in your browser. Part of Java's bad security rap is that some people promoted the idea that (1) you could write a "security manager" that could effectively sandbox program code, and (2) it thereby became safe to download arbitrary programs, sight unseen, and run them. None of that has anything to do with the language itself.

Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI

Bill_MI

MVM

Thanks, Dave. My history from the hardware side was Visual Studio replacing Visual Basic so they merge too much.

StuartMW: Exactly!

StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

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StuartMW to dave

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to dave
said by dave:

The code monkeys get hired anyway...

Perhaps. I guess the attitude is "we've got a bunch of monkeys so lets hire a bunch more of them, give 'em fast typewriters, and perhaps we'll get the complete works of Shakespeare (in time)."

PS: I'll admit my bias against many "Computer Scientists" (and equivalent). In my experience their computer "knowledge" is basic at best.
PX Eliezer1
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join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1 to redwolfe_98

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to redwolfe_98
said by redwolfe_98:

if you look at the kaspersky program's "system requirements", one of the requirements is "NETFramework 4", so it isn't exactly correct to say that the end-user isn't informed about it.

I stand corrected on that point....partially.

IMHO, I don't think I should have to go into the Support Knowledgebase to find that fact, if I am downloading their program.

Only a minority of programs require the .NET framework, making it the exception and not the rule.

So those that do require it, should point it out a little more aggressively.

-----

Anyway, I have enough other security measures installed so that I just threw my hands up and went with MSSE.

I'll just rely on good practices, hardware firewall, software firewall, HIPS, HostsMan, CryptoPrevent, and scans with MalwareBytes Free.

In many years, I've only had one virus hit me AFAIK---Datacrime---and at that long-ago time Norton AV failed to prevent my machine from getting trashed.

-----

Thanks to everyone for their comments.

StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

StuartMW

Premium Member

said by PX Eliezer1:

...I just threw my hands up and went with MSSE.

Personally I think MSE gets a bad rap for what it is. Those that want "100% full protection" (not possible BTW) love to quote it's "mediocre" detection rate.

Those that think the best protection is the users brain (many posters here including me) are quite happy with MSE.
PX Eliezer1
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join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1 to andyross

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to andyross
said by andyross:

What is the paranoia about .NET? Why do so many people hate it? As mentioned, some versions are pre-installed as part of Windows, as some Windows components use it.

I can only think that some older versions had issues, and that fed the paranoia? My only complaint about .NET is that the Windows Updates for them often take quite awhile to install.

1) It greatly increases the number of Windows Updates, and as you point out, these updates are big and slow. Like driving behind a cement mixer truck.

2) Many people have had the experience that it slows down the machine in general. Which is logical because it basically expands the OS code by huge numbers of lines.

3) Numerous non-compatible versions.

4) A Microsoft employee himself has posted the best tool to eradicate it from your system....

camper
just visiting this planet
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join:2010-03-21
Bethel, CT

camper to dave

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to dave
said by dave:

The suit wasn't because Microsoft implemented a JVM - they were perfectly entitled to do that, as far as I recall. Sun's beef was that Microsoft didn't implement the entire Sun JVM spec, and they did implement extensions.

 
Yup. It occurred during Microsoft's embrace, extend and extinguish period.

Microsoft put out an incompatible JVM that did not work properly with code written to Sun's Java spec. Then it looked like Microsoft dispatched its online apologists to start a Java - write once, debug everywhere campaign, highlighting that Sun's basic premise for Java -- its portability -- was false.

Apparently, Microsoft did not want a Java it did not control out there on the web because, in Microsoft's view, Java could become a platform for application development and that space was reserved for Windows.
scross
join:2002-09-13
USA

1 recommendation

scross to StuartMW

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to StuartMW
said by StuartMW:

PS: I'll admit my bias against many "Computer Scientists" (and equivalent). In my experience their computer "knowledge" is basic at best.

You might enjoy this article, then: »mashable.com/2014/12/16/ ··· d-money/

On the one hand I see exactly where they're coming from here, having been there myself. (Almost everything that I've found of practical use in my career I've learned OUTSIDE of school.) On the other hand, the "hot language of the week mentality" (which has settled down a bit lately, thank goodness); the "hot new trend in business and/or computing" (same as it ever was); and most annoyingly, the constant re-inventing of the wheel (where an old concept is given a brand new name and MAYBE a couple of genuinely useful tweaks, you hope) is growing tiresome. The latter especially occurs because too many people in the computer field these days aren't well-educated or experienced enough to know that their "exciting new concept" is actually quite old - and may have fallen out of favor because it had real problems, or perhaps just because it wasn't "trendy" any more.

I found this quote in particular very telling: "Just in the web-sphere, trends and technology change on a monthly basis."

Yeah, that's probably less about "progress" than it is about running around in circles, chasing your tail. To the extent that it genuinely IS progress, it may very well just be applying old concepts to a new area - concepts that would have been pretty much integrated from the beginning if the people involved had really known what they were doing, instead of just winging it.

And as a Computer Science guy myself, the following immediately came to mind when I read that quote: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th ··· science)