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Termites
Anon
2014-Dec-25 9:22 am
Code requirements and local inspectionssaid by defiant:said by KrK:The home inspector who inspected my place missed tons of stuff. You can win vs a home inspector, but the most they are liable for is the amount of the fee---- so, if their bad inspection caused you to way overpay for a house, it's still tough cookies. Most you can get out of him is a refund for what he charged for his services. If that's the case, that's TOTAL BS. Though, I'm sure it depends on the laws of the state. That's why I'll be consulting a lawyer in the near future. One way or another, I'm going to raise hell about this. My wife posted the whole ordeal in a local forum and received responses from , at least, 7 others who hired this clown and made similar discoveries after his "report" found no major issues. Whether he's negligent, incompetent, or deliberately doing this for personal gain, the point comes down to this: he's screwing over people. Usually, this is called fraud. when you build a house like am doing you find out alot about the county/city inspectors you never knew before.put it this way the City over from me you know how they inspect the new plumbing on a new house?THEY DON'T !!its not Required so that person is putting their faith in a Legit company to do it to Code...they can drop the pipe and cover it up..but the county Requires the inspection. now my County Requires full inspections. see where am going with this? i rather not say the county's, but there's one county that drive's by your new construction and approves it even though they didn't step their foot in the house. i think this needs to be Regulated in-regards to new houses there's no one rule out there that everyone has to follow.. (this was split off as it is best suited to be its own stand alone discussion and has little to do with the original load center topic) - grobinette |
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robbin Mod join:2000-09-21 Leander, TX
1 recommendation |
robbin
Mod
2014-Dec-25 1:51 pm
Re: [Electrical] Advice for correcting my home's load center MESSSince you post anon we don't know where you live but if you aren't happy with the current laws then the place to take it up is your state legislature. In the case of Texas, counties do not have authority to issue building permits nor enforce standards (so there is no county inspection). Cities have the right but each adopts code individually and can choose what codes are in effect in their jurisdiction. Now if you are saying that there needs to be standard US government building inspections mandated by federal action then just say so so the fireworks can start! |
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Termites
Anon
2014-Dec-25 8:55 pm
said by robbin:Since you post anon we don't know where you live but if you aren't happy with the current laws then the place to take it up is your state legislature. In the case of Texas, counties do not have authority to issue building permits nor enforce standards (so there is no county inspection). Cities have the right but each adopts code individually and can choose what codes are in effect in their jurisdiction. Now if you are saying that there needs to be standard US government building inspections mandated by federal action then just say so so the fireworks can start! There needs to be a Standard and enforced not the cities and county's doing their own thing.. The way things are built caves are safer lololol... |
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1 edit
1 recommendation |
said by Termites : There needs to be a Standard and enforced not the cities and county's doing their own thing. There are widely adopted standards that cover pretty much all areas of construction: NEC, BOCA, etc. I agree enforcement varies but to some degree it becomes self-policing - if there are significant problems insurance rates go up and contractors are potentially liable for damage. I think having the Federal government involved would add yet another layer of complexity and bureaucracy to the construction process. Need to put things into perspective big difference in risk between building a home and a large commercial enterprise. /tom fixed typos |
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Termites
Anon
2014-Dec-25 10:53 pm
said by tschmidt:said by Termites : There needs to be a Standard and enforced not the cities and county's doing their own thing. There are wildly adopted standards that cover pretty much all areas of construction: NEC, BOCA, etc. I agree enforcement varies but to some degree it becomes self policing - if there are significant problems insurance rates goes up and contractors are potentially liable for damage. I think having the Federal government involved would add yet another layer of complexity and bureaucracy to the constriction process. Need to put things into perspective big difference in risk between building a home and a large commercial enterprise. /tom What if they mess up the plumbing if there's no standards in inspections the insurance rates go up because then their insurance or my homeowners pays out.that gets passed on to consumers. So your argument doesn't fly. |
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nunyaLXI 483 MVM join:2000-12-23 O Fallon, MO ·Charter
2 recommendations |
to Termites
said by Termites :There needs to be a Standard and enforced not the cities and county's doing their own thing.. The way things are built caves are safer lololol... Like Tom says, enforcement is the problem. People get on this very forum and post all kinds of hogwash. One of the biggest is 'where I live there are no codes'. The latest trend on here now seems to be a pissing contest in apathy: '...no mine is worse, see!'. Almost outright bragging about shoddy work. There is almost always some sort of building code on the state, county, or local level. Even if you reside in a tiny township out in the boondocks, there is probably a statewide building standard. There may not be anyone available to enforce it, but it's still there. Just like speeding on the highway is always illegal, there's rarely someone present to enforce the law. Most of the time you can speed will-nilly until you get caught or cause an accident. |
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robbin Mod join:2000-09-21 Leander, TX |
robbin
Mod
2014-Dec-26 2:54 am
A statewide building standard is different from an enforceable code. This is not at all like speeding on the highway. In some places there is no enforceable code even though there is a standard. |
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nunyaLXI 483 MVM join:2000-12-23 O Fallon, MO
1 recommendation |
nunya
MVM
2014-Dec-26 3:27 am
Um...That's what I just said. And yes, speeding is a good analogy.
It doesn't matter at what level the code is adopted. It's still there, and shitty work still isn't acceptable no matter how you try to justify it or make it 'cool'. |
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Termites to robbin
Anon
2014-Dec-26 8:42 am
to robbin
said by robbin:A statewide building standard is different from an enforceable code. This is not at all like speeding on the highway. In some places there is no enforceable code even though there is a standard. Why have Mandatory Building Codes state law, when the Local Governments dont have to adopt them laws ??? WTF? quote: As noted above, the building, one and two family dwelling residential, fire, plumbing, mechanical, gas, electrical and energy codes are mandatory codes, meaning that under Georgia law, any structure built in Georgia must comply with these codes, whether or not the local government chooses to locally enforce these codes.
In addition, since Georgia law gives the enumerated codes statewide applicability, [Bold] it is not required that local governments have to adopt the mandatory codes.[/bold
i thought that is why you have a Mandatory codes.inspections so its standard |
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robbin Mod join:2000-09-21 Leander, TX |
to nunya
said by nunya:Um...That's what I just said. And yes, speeding is a good analogy. No, it's not the same. A standard such as what is adopted by Texas, is not written in as law and there is no penality if you do not follow it. I am not condoning shitty work but don't pretend that the rules are the same everywhere. I never tried to make anything "cool" but whether you like it or not, not every place in the US has adopted enforceable code. |
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robbin |
to Termites
said by Termites :Why have Mandatory Building Codes state law, when the Local Governments dont have to adopt them laws ??? WTF? Where do you see anything in my post which even implies mandatory? Here is one of the Texas statues: "Sec. 214.214. NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE. (a) Except as provided by Subsection (c), the National Electrical Code, as it existed on May 1, 2001, is adopted as the municipal electrical construction code in this state and applies to all residential and commercial electrical construction applications. (b) A municipality may establish procedures: (1) to adopt local amendments to the National Electrical Code; and (2) for the administration and enforcement of the National Electrical Code..." You will note that this statute only applies to municipalities and gives them the right to adopt it. It is not mandatory but most importantly it only applies to municipalities. As I stated in a previous post counties in Texas do not have this ability (accept for a few, highly populous which ave statutes specifically granting them the right. |
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nunyaLXI 483 MVM join:2000-12-23 O Fallon, MO ·Charter
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nunya
MVM
2014-Dec-26 1:14 pm
The Texas Electrical Safety and Licensing Act requires the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation (TDLR) to adopt the revised National Electrical Code (NEC) as the electrical code for the state of Texas. On November 21, 2013, the Texas Commission of Licensing and Regulation, which oversees TDLR, adopted amendments to Chapter 73.100 of the Electricians administrative rules and established the 2014 NEC as the "minimum standard" for all electrical work in Texas covered by the Act.
Chapter 1305.201 of the Act provides municipalities the authority to make local amendments to the 2014 NEC; however, any proposal to amend these standards should be done in accordance with NEC 90.4 which stipulates that "the authority having jurisdiction may waive specific requirements in this Code or permit alternative methods where it is assured that equivalent objectives can be achieved by establishing and maintaining effective safety."
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robbin Mod join:2000-09-21 Leander, TX |
robbin
Mod
2014-Dec-26 1:53 pm
From the same act
"Sec. 1305.003. Exemptions; Application of Chapter.
(a) This chapter does not apply to:
(6) work not specifically regulated by a municipal ordinance that is performed in or on a dwelling by a person who owns and resides in the dwelling;"
Counties have no power to pass municipal ordinances so it doesn't apply to unincorporated land. It should be noted that the document you referenced is an occupation code and not building code. |
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to Termites
said by Termites :What if they mess up the plumbing if there's no standards in inspections the insurance rates go up because then their insurance or my homeowners pays out.that gets passed on to consumers. So your argument doesn't fly. I don't want to derail this and get drawn into a long discussion. Everything has a cost. There is a cost of letting incompetent folks do wiring (or any type of activity for that matter) and there is a cost of inspection and prevention. My point was simply that in a residential setting it tends to be self policing and except in the most egregious cases is not life threatening. As a member of society I am more then willing to bear the risk of incompetence because too much regulation discourage DIY which also has a benefit to society. /tom |
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nunyaLXI 483 MVM join:2000-12-23 O Fallon, MO |
to robbin
What don't you get? It applies to the whole state unless otherwise amended by the local municipality. That's the way it is clearly written for Texas, and almost everywhere else USA. |
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robbin Mod join:2000-09-21 Leander, TX |
robbin
Mod
2014-Dec-27 2:58 am
said by nunya:What don't you get? It applies to the whole state unless otherwise amended by the local municipality. That's the way it is clearly written for Texas, and almost everywhere else USA. No, Texas isn't like most places. The first thought is the individual's rights. The property rights people pretty much started here I think. Cities have the right to enact and enforce if they desire but they don't have to. Counties don't have the right. There is no enforceable, statewide building code. What don't you get? It not like a speed limit which isn't enforced. It is still the wild west and the rules haven't been put in place like they have in the east. |
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nunyaLXI 483 MVM join:2000-12-23 O Fallon, MO ·Charter
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nunya
MVM
2014-Dec-27 3:09 am
You're hopeless. I put it right in front of you and you cover your eyes and ears and go "lalalalalala" like a kid. See 214.214 of Texas code then if you are not happy. You are right, the counties can't and don't make municipal ordinances, which doesn't matter because code has been adopted as LAW on a STATEWIDE level. The counties are free to enforce the code as they will. So here we are back to "LACK OF ENFORCEMENT" vs. no code. It's there; there may not be anyone around to enforce it (except courts in the case of a lawsuit). |
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robbin Mod join:2000-09-21 Leander, TX |
robbin
Mod
2014-Dec-27 3:56 am
I already posted 214.214 but here it is again. You will note it still only applies to municipalities.
"Sec. 214.214. NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE. (a) Except as provided by Subsection (c), the National Electrical Code, as it existed on May 1, 2001, is adopted as the municipal electrical construction code in this state and applies to all residential and commercial electrical construction applications.
(b) A municipality may establish procedures:
(1) to adopt local amendments to the National Electrical Code; and
(2) for the administration and enforcement of the National Electrical Code.
(c) The National Electrical Code applies to all commercial buildings in a municipality for which construction begins on or after January 1, 2006, and to any alteration, remodeling, enlargement, or repair of those commercial buildings.
Added by Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 120, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 2002.
Amended by:
Acts 2005, 79th Leg., Ch. 389 (S.B. 1458), Sec. 3, eff. January 1, 2006.
The 214 subsection is part of CHAPTER 214. MUNICIPAL REGULATION OF HOUSING AND OTHER STRUCTURES. There is a similar section for counties and it is 233 -- CHAPTER 233. COUNTY REGULATION OF HOUSING AND OTHER STRUCTURES. There is no mention of electrical code in this section. Now if you know of another section which applies to unincorporated areas then post the link. I live in Texas and own property here. Are you licensed to practice in this state? |
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whoisip to robbin
Anon
2014-Dec-27 6:28 am
to robbin
said by robbin:Since you post anon we don't know where you live Termites is posting from suburban Macon, GA if the IP address is correct. said by robbin: Now if you are saying that there needs to be standard US government building inspections mandated by federal action then just say so so the fireworks can start! Well, there sort of already is. Pretty much every jurisdiction in the country adopts some form of the NEC using it as a baseline and adding to it. Same with the IRC, NSPC, etc. It's just enforced locally rather than federally. |
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enon to robbin
Anon
2014-Dec-27 8:41 am
to robbin
said by robbin: Now if you know of another section which applies to unincorporated areas then post the link. I live in Texas and own property here. Are you licensed to practice in this state? K. quote: Sec. 1305.201 (e) Electrical work performed in an unincorporated area of the state must be installed in accordance with standards at least as stringent as the requirements of the state electrical code as adopted under Section 1305.101.
For reference: quote: Sec. 1305.101 (a) The executive director or commission, as appropriate, shall: (1) by rule establish the financial responsibility requirements for electrical contractors; and (2) after publication of the National Electrical Code by the National Fire Protection Association every three years, adopt the revised National Electrical Code as the electrical code for the state.
Emphasis mine. "Living in and owning property" in a jurisdiction does not make you a legal expert nor does it make you an qualified tradesman. |
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robbin Mod join:2000-09-21 Leander, TX 1 edit |
robbin
Mod
2014-Dec-27 1:26 pm
said by enon :For reference: quote: Sec. 1305.101 Still not what we are looking for. This document is the Texas Electrical Safety and Licensing Act which regulates licensed electricians. As a property owner in an unincorporated area I don't have to hire one. So if you are saying that if I hire a licensed electrician they have to follow code or get in trouble with their licensing board then say that. But don't say that as a property owner I am breaking the law if I don't follow it or hire a licensed electrician as there is no such requirement. In fact, in section "Sec. 1305.003. Exemptions; Application of Chapter (a) This chapter does not apply to:(6) work not specifically regulated by a municipal ordinance that is performed in or on a dwelling by a person who owns and resides in the dwelling...". |
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Yup, 1305.003 says the chapter does not apply to "(8) electrical work if: (A) the work is performed by a person who does not engage in electrical work for the public;" » codes.lp.findlaw.com/txs ··· /430.001 sets some minimum inspections and clearly identifies NEC compliance for residential construction. Still doesn't cover minor electrical work. You might also have a look at » www.tdlr.texas.gov/elect ··· cfaq.htm (Seems to be a FAQ that only applies to licensed electricians, but also seems to mix "electrical work" which would include anyone doing such work) "9. I'm performing electrical work in an unincorporated area (i.e. no permits required). What electrical code must I comply with? Any non-exempt electrical work started on or after September 1, 2011, must be installed in accordance with the NEC 2011." |
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joewho Premium Member join:2004-08-20 Dundee, IL |
to Termites
Re: Code requirements and local inspectionsI think you guys argue city vs. country. |
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robbin Mod join:2000-09-21 Leander, TX
2 recommendations |
to lawsoncl
Re: [Electrical] Advice for correcting my home's load center MESSBasically the issue here revolves around private property rights. Instead of giving all counties authority to issue permits and conduct inspections (which would be considered an invasion and loss of property rights) they create a law that says you have to be licensed to perform electric work as an occupation and if you are licensed you have to follow code. So, as a property owner in an unincorporated area, I am supposed to hire a licensed electrician to do electrical work and the person doing the work is supposed to be licensed but if I don't all I can get is a class C misdemeanor for hiring an unlicensed person and the work still doesn't get inspected or corrected. I think it's important to understand that for Texas residents because there should not be an expectation that a structure is built to any code if it is in an unincorporated area. Most are built to standards but it is not required.
When someone says that there is a legal, enforceable statewide code they just don't understand how they do things here. Our state constitution is very restrictive, so you start with the individual having all of the rights and then slowly give the state very limited powers compared to many states. They didn't adopt a statewide code that can be modified by cities, instead they adopted a code that municipalities can use if they choose to regulate building standards and otherwise you are supposed to use a licensed electrician if you don't do it yourself and the electrician is supposed to follow code. But there is no authority to inspect or enforce that code is actually followed and no law to fine or sue over other than this licensing runaround that I know of. |
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chamberc Premium Member join:2008-08-05 Addison, TX
1 recommendation |
to Termites
said by Termites :said by robbin:Since you post anon we don't know where you live but if you aren't happy with the current laws then the place to take it up is your state legislature. In the case of Texas, counties do not have authority to issue building permits nor enforce standards (so there is no county inspection). Cities have the right but each adopts code individually and can choose what codes are in effect in their jurisdiction. Now if you are saying that there needs to be standard US government building inspections mandated by federal action then just say so so the fireworks can start! There needs to be a Standard and enforced not the cities and county's doing their own thing.. The way things are built caves are safer lololol... or folks could just take responsibility for their own property instead of depending on the government. |
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nunyaLXI 483 MVM join:2000-12-23 O Fallon, MO ·Charter
2 recommendations |
nunya
MVM
2014-Dec-28 12:06 pm
I have a right to enjoy my property. I pay taxes for certain services, such as fire protection. If I live near some yahoo who burns his house down, he's also putting my property at risk. Even if I do not live near said yahoo: I, and the rest of the community, pay for fire protection service. Rolling fire trucks and putting out fires costs money. Paying a coroner to identify charred bodies costs money. If anyone survives and they don't have insurance, it raises hospital rates for the rest of the community. A burned out hull of a home affects adjacent property values. If the municipality has to clean it up, it costs the taxpayers again (not everyone has insurance, look at shit holes like Detroit). "The community" has a vested interest in building codes and zoning laws. These are just a few "duh" answers. It runs much deeper than that. There's a reason we humans have codified construction methods going back at least 3,700 years. |
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If you give up your rights for security you end up having neither. |
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nunyaLXI 483 MVM join:2000-12-23 O Fallon, MO ·Charter
1 recommendation |
nunya
MVM
2014-Dec-28 2:40 pm
New Neighbors |
This isn't about terrorism or free speech. We all give up certain "rights" to be a part of civilized society. There's a big difference between "limited" government and "no government". Limited government is really about limiting the Federal Government and pushing the decisions that affect people's everyday lives down to the state and local level. It's not about "no laws", it's more about "locally appropriate" laws. About 70% of the Federal Government is unconstitutional simply because it has overstepped it's bounds. But, those same laws enacted on the State and lower levels would not be. All societies have rules. We have "rules" because people do stupid shit. Do I have a right to have a pig farm? Yes. Do I have a right to have a pig farm in the middle of town? No. How would you feel if you built a $500,000 house in the countryside and then this showed up on the other side of the road? |
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The reason I can't have a pig farm is because enough "Good Citizens" get together to deny me my rights. ...or the sheriff will grab ya and the boys will bring you down. The next thing you know, boy - oh you're prison bound... That would be the very least of my concerns. Our sheriff is a good American and the people's servant. |
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Termites to chamberc
Anon
2014-Dec-28 3:36 pm
to chamberc
said by chamberc:said by Termites :said by robbin:Since you post anon we don't know where you live but if you aren't happy with the current laws then the place to take it up is your state legislature. In the case of Texas, counties do not have authority to issue building permits nor enforce standards (so there is no county inspection). Cities have the right but each adopts code individually and can choose what codes are in effect in their jurisdiction. Now if you are saying that there needs to be standard US government building inspections mandated by federal action then just say so so the fireworks can start! There needs to be a Standard and enforced not the cities and county's doing their own thing.. The way things are built caves are safer lololol... or folks could just take responsibility for their own property instead of depending on the government. thanks for the laugh, how do you expect people to take Responsibility when you're hiring a Professional and you expect them to follow the codes and they dont? the avg Joe knows nothing about this. this is why we have the government stepping in like Recalls if they would have spent the extra 20 cents the item wouldn't be on the recall list. good example » [Plumbing] Fire Hazard Recall: Coaire/Quietside Tankless Gas Water Heaters here in Georgia it may be code but if the City or County inspector doesn't like it they fail you. |
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