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 ·Metronet
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to Bob Anderson
Re: It is not an emergency brakeI also think that this is one of the times that the device was originally called one and acted correctly for its function but as time and technology progressed it took another role. Meanwhile a large number of people know it and refer to it as the original and continues to propagate. |
actions · 2014-Dec-30 7:44 pm · (locked) |
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your moderator at work
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 KardinalDei Gratina Regina
Mod
join:2001-02-04
N of 49th |
to Hall
Re: It is not an emergency brakeI've been leaving my cars in gear since my first one (a 1976 Corolla), specifically whatever gear I'll be using next. That car didn't have a clutch interrupt switch so if the clutch wasn't depressed when starting (which is what one should *always* do as a matter of good practice), the car would move in the direction I was going to go next, rather than further forward into a parked car in a parking lot etc. Depressing the clutch also takes the load of a cold/stiff transmission off the starter motor, and in the dead of winter that can be quite a load. Anyone who doesn't press the clutch when starting a manual transmission car, regardless of whether the car is in neutral or in gear, is setting bad habits which can get one in trouble when situations aren't ideal. Also, in certain cities, one is required to leave a manual transmission car in gear when parked on a hill (eg/ Westmount, QC). It's a parking brake that doubles as an emergency brake in cases of emergency.  |
actions · 2014-Dec-30 9:16 pm · (locked) |
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fartness (banned)Donald Trump 2016
join:2003-03-25
Look Outside |
to H_T_R_N
said by H_T_R_N:said by Bob Anderson:The brake, sometimes called a handbrake or sometimes a parking brake is definitely not meant to be used when the car is rolling. Unless of course it becomes necessary because of hydraulic failure in the main system. Then it becomes the emergency brake, and not used only for parking. This. It seems more of a low speed emergency brake. I was parked on a hill a couple years ago waiting to pick someone up. I turned my vehicle off that had a manual transmission and kept my foot on the service brake. I did not set the parking brake. A couple minutes later I started rolling backwards and instinctually hit the service brake only to find a lack of hydraulics. The parking brake became an emergency brake to stop me from rolling since I wouldn't have had enough time to start the vehicle up. My car with an automatic has an electronic parking brake. I hope I don't need an emergency brake in an emergency since it wouldn't function as that. |
actions · 2014-Dec-30 10:05 pm · (locked) |
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to Kardinal
"Also, in certain cities, one is required to leave a manual transmission car in gear when parked on a hill (eg/ Westmount, QC)."
When I went for my driving test in the 60s in Victoria it was required to always park a manual trans in first gear no matter what up or down angle the car was on. Also, you had to start off on a steep hill from a parallel parking spot without the car rolling backwards. I did this flawlessly in my brother's '54 Chev
and the instructor noted that this was the most difficult part of the test, accounting for almost certain failure for a first time driving test. He then asked me how much practice I had driving and I told him the truth: two years on old private logging roads in northern Vancouver Island. Passed my first test no problem.
-Bob |
actions · 2014-Dec-31 5:12 am · (locked) |
 Doctor OldsI Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium Member
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30 |
to fartness
said by fartness:My car with an automatic has an electronic parking brake. I hope I don't need an emergency brake in an emergency since it wouldn't function as that You absolutely positive about that? Most electric parking brakes activate the ABS system for emergency braking. |
actions · 2014-Dec-31 5:35 am · (locked) |
dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio |
dave to Hall
Premium Member
2014-Dec-31 5:58 am
to Hall
In UK practice, you're supposed to engage the handbrake (not 'parking brake') whenever stopped for anything more than an instant. For example, the correct way to wait at a red light is disengage gear, apply handbrake, release clutch. Forgetting to use the handbrake is a driving test failure. Or 'was' back in the 1970s when I took my UK driving test.
That is in part why UK traffic lights have a red+amber phase in between red and green: so you can disengage the brake and get into gear. |
actions · 2014-Dec-31 5:58 am · (locked) |
fixrmanFrom a broken heart to a hole in the sky
Premium Member
join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA ·Verizon FiOS
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to Bob Anderson
said by Bob Anderson:"Also, in certain cities, one is required to leave a manual transmission car in gear when parked on a hill (eg/ Westmount, QC)." I remember the Driver's Education Instructor at my high school teaching the same thing. Of course, that was back in the 80s, before Al Gore invented the internet and parents began spoiling their children by buying them everything they want because they felt guilty for spending more time at the office than they did at home being parents. Day care was what mom or widows needed; before the electronic babysitters called video games, iPhones, Playstations and Xboxes. But I digress. I also don't recall in all my years in automotive ever replacing "emergency" brake cables. That isn't the nomenclature used, they are called Park Brake cables. I'd wager there is no procedure in any Owner's Manual (I'll check mine today) describing how to use the Park Brake in an emergency since the manufacturers wouldn't want to accept the liability when it all goes wrong. There are very few instances where a hydraulic failure requires the use of the parking brake, especially if one drives prudently. I'll admit few people do. I'll say it again: For most people, applying the Park Brake in an emergency will create one. |
actions · 2014-Dec-31 6:44 am · (locked) |
H_T_R_N (banned)
join:2011-12-06
Valencia, PA
2 recommendations |
H_T_R_N (banned)
Member
2014-Dec-31 8:01 am
said by fixrman:I also don't recall in all my years in automotive ever replacing "emergency" brake cables. That isn't the nomenclature used, they are called Park Brake cables. » www.helmarparts.com/Emer ··· s/64.htm» lokar.com/product-pgs/eb ··· ain.html» www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8 ··· 20cables» www.getdiscbrakes.com/em ··· e-cables» www.bruinbrakecables.com/» www.summitracing.com/sea ··· -Cables/» www.classicpartsusa.com/ ··· mergency» www.julianos.com/lokar_e ··· les.html» www.pacificcustoms.com/e ··· les.html» www.classicchevy.com/che ··· 957.htmlAgain, you seem to be living in a world all your own. Is it an emergency or a parking brake? Why pick on the minutia, if not to make oneself appear above another. For 35 years I have called it an emergency brake as have millions of others. To make the claim that IF one were to call it an emergency brake then most of them would die from self inflicted wrecks borders on the ridiculous. I bet if we asked all those involved in the unintended acceleration what they call the emergency\parking brake how many would call it a parking brake over a emergency brake? How many had the mental power to use it or the myriad of other things that would have lessened the damage they caused when the unintended event occurred? While I get you wish everyone in the world would use the correct nomenclature, none of us here are in your automotive class trying to get our certs. So instead of belittling folks for using commonly known and understood words to describe things, you might try looking past their use of common words and instead share your wealth of knowledge without the auto-natzi style. Incase you were unaware this is a tech centric forum with an auto subforum, and not GMs tech forum for up and coming service technicians. As an aside, I thought you had me on ignore. |
actions · 2014-Dec-31 8:01 am · (locked) |
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to dave
said by dave:In UK practice, you're supposed to engage the handbrake (not 'parking brake') whenever stopped for anything more than an instant. For example, the correct way to wait at a red light is disengage gear, apply handbrake, release clutch. I remember that you're supposed to use the handbrake when starting uphill, but I don't remember that for level , or for downhill starts. (got my first license over 30 years ago, so I may not remember) But once someone is skilled enough with the clutch, the handbrake is no longer needed. That is in part why UK traffic lights have a red+amber phase in between red and green: so you can disengage the brake and get into gear. I was thought that the red-yellow phase is to shift into gear, and whether that includes disengaging the handbrake depends on if it was applied in the first place. |
actions · 2014-Dec-31 8:49 am · (locked) |
dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio |
dave
Premium Member
2014-Dec-31 9:14 am
Well, it's for getting ready to go, and all I meant was there's more 'getting ready' to be done if you've correctly used the handbrake. |
actions · 2014-Dec-31 9:14 am · (locked) |
fartness (banned)Donald Trump 2016
join:2003-03-25
Look Outside |
to Doctor Olds
said by Doctor Olds:said by fartness:My car with an automatic has an electronic parking brake. I hope I don't need an emergency brake in an emergency since it wouldn't function as that You absolutely positive about that? Most electric parking brakes activate the ABS system for emergency braking. 2012 Subaru Legacy. I tried it out when parked and it takes about five seconds to activate. Too lazy to go outside and see what it looks like, but it looks different than your average parking brake too. |
actions · 2014-Dec-31 10:22 am · (locked) |
 mackey
Premium Member
join:2007-08-20 |
to Doctor Olds
said by Doctor Olds:You absolutely positive about that? Most electric parking brakes activate the ABS system for emergency braking. I'm pretty sure he's right. The last rental car I had had one too; if the engine was off when you pressed the button you could hear an electric motor engage something on the back wheels. Also, I fail to see how activating the anti-lock system (which removes brake pressure) could act as a parking brake. |
actions · 2014-Dec-31 2:23 pm · (locked) |
1 recommendation |
to Lindsey
said by Lindsey:He prolly was trying to do what they call drifting..they always use the parking break to get back end to slide This post contains a significant error. "always" use the parking brake? NO. Depending on the vehicle or situation, a parking brake *may* be used. In many situations use of vehicle inertia, throttle and steering inputs can be a more elegant trigger of a drift. I *can* use a 5 lb sledge hammer to drive home finishing nails, but it doesn't mean I always do. |
actions · 2014-Dec-31 2:37 pm · (locked) |
Cho Baka
1 recommendation |
to mackey
said by mackey:Also, I fail to see how activating the anti-lock system (which removes brake pressure) could act as a parking brake. All modern ABS systems use their abilities of pressure Hold, Reduce and Increase every time ABS engages. Basically, only old/inexpensive rear wheel only abs systems (fitted to some pick-up trucks) used a Reduce/Hold only system. I am not familiar with the details of these systems. |
actions · 2014-Dec-31 2:44 pm · (locked) |
Doctor OldsI Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium Member
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
1 edit |
to NefCanuck
said by NefCanuck:the 2014 MKZ rental I had didn't even *have* anything that passed for a parking brake, at least not that I found in the five days I had the car. On the instrument panel left of the steering wheel!  
2014_Lincoln···nual.pdf
5208276 bytes
2014_Lincoln MKZ Owners Manual
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actions · 2014-Dec-31 4:13 pm · (locked) |
fixrmanFrom a broken heart to a hole in the sky
Premium Member
join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA |
fixrman
Premium Member
2014-Dec-31 7:01 pm
Hmm. Interestingly, it is not an Emergency Brake. I submit it never was, nor was it intended to be.
Q.E.D. |
actions · 2014-Dec-31 7:01 pm · (locked) |
·Metronet
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I don't see where he said it was. Olds replied to a post that stated a car did not have an electric parking brake. He showed where it was on the particular model.
Though the last sentence is interesting as it might allow it to be used as an emergency brake. |
actions · 2014-Dec-31 7:13 pm · (locked) |
fixrmanFrom a broken heart to a hole in the sky
Premium Member
join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA |
fixrman
Premium Member
2014-Dec-31 7:28 pm
I am not suggesting he did say anything to the contrary. We will not know until the rest is posted. I will wager that the manufacturer will not call it other than a Parking Brake.
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actions · 2014-Dec-31 7:28 pm · (locked) |
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Then I have no idea what "Interestingly, it is not an Emergency Brake." means. Clearly - to me - it is totally suggesting you think Olds either said or insinuated it. |
actions · 2014-Dec-31 7:42 pm · (locked) |
H_T_R_N (banned)
join:2011-12-06
Valencia, PA |
H_T_R_N (banned)
Member
2014-Dec-31 8:27 pm
said by CylonRed:Then I have no idea what "Interestingly, it is not an Emergency Brake." means. Clearly - to me - it is totally suggesting you think Olds either said or insinuated it. Hoisted by his own petard quite possibly. |
actions · 2014-Dec-31 8:27 pm · (locked) |
fixrmanFrom a broken heart to a hole in the sky
Premium Member
join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA |
to CylonRed
He posted an excerpt from the Owner's Manual. Did you read it? It mentions Electric Parking Brake approximately 14 times. Dr Olds insinuated nothing. |
actions · 2014-Dec-31 8:52 pm · (locked) |
mackey
Premium Member
join:2007-08-20
1 recommendation |
to fixrman
said by fixrman:I submit it never was, nor was it intended to be. From the same manual: Applying the electric parking brake
while moving will result in use of the
anti-lock braking system. Do not use the
electric parking brake system when the
vehicle is moving unless the normal brake
system is unable to stop the vehicle. and With the exception of emergency
conditions (for example, the brake
pedal does not work or is blocked), do not
apply the electric parking brake while the
vehicle is moving. and If your vehicle speed is above 4 mph (6
km/h), the braking force is applied as long
as the switch is applied. Release or press
the switch, or press the accelerator pedal
to stop the braking force. Not intended to be used in an emergency eh? |
actions · 2015-Jan-1 2:10 am · (locked) |
Doctor OldsI Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium Member
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
1 recommendation |
to Hall
said by Hall:When you park the car, you put it in neutral and apply that brake .... I don't know who came up with the idea of putting a manual in 1st or reverse gear when parked.... More than once, I've picked up my car from a repair shop, oil change, etc, started the car, and it lunges forward ! Luckily, there was never anything close in front that I would have hit. That appears to be contrary to mechanical advantage as two forces (parking brake and being in gear) are better than a single force (parking brake only) and when on a incline, you should add the additional step of turning your wheels to the curb to have a third force to help prevent rolling (especially if your parked vehicle were to be hit by another vehicle). Learn to Drive Stick » www.cartalk.com/content/ ··· -stick-7quote:
Put Your Transmission in Gear and Turn Your Wheels When You're Parked on a Hill
Most people are taught to put a manual transmission into first gear or reverse to park it—first gear if you're pointed uphill, and reverse if you're pointed downhill. Will this make it less likely that your car will roll down the hill? Definitely. Will it guarantee it? Absolutely not.
Why does putting your vehicle in gear help? By putting the vehicle in gear, you're making a direct mechanical connection between the engine and the wheels. You're making it so the wheels can't turn unless they force the engine to turn. And the engine is very hard to turn—especially in first and reverse gears. In other words, you're making a bet. You're betting that the force needed to get the engine to turn is greater than the gravitational force that's pulling the car down hill.
But you could lose the bet, for any one of several reasons, including low engine compression, a slipping clutch or if there's ice on the ground. So always apply the parking brake. And, as a final safety measure, turn the front wheels so that if your car does roll, it will roll into the sidewalk curb. If you're pointed downhill and parking on the right, your wheels should point right. If you're pointed uphill and you're parking on the right, your wheels should point left. You get the idea.
And the clutch pedal should be depressed to the floor before starting the engine regardless of the vehicle having a starter interlock switch or not. |
actions · 2015-Jan-1 5:42 am · (locked) |
 Grumpy4
Premium Member
join:2001-07-28
NW CT
1 edit |
Grumpy4
Premium Member
2015-Jan-1 6:19 am
said by Doctor Olds:And the clutch pedal should be depressed to the floor before starting the engine regardless of the vehicle having a starter interlock switch or not. True dat. The little starter will have to spin the transmission and the engine if the clutch is engaged at start up. Once the engine is running, I like to let up the clutch while in neutral for a bit before moving, so the transmission oil gets all up on the transmission innards before I first move. Probably not a must do, but it floats my boat. I do believe that reverse has the most hill holding power over first, but I can't know if that is universally true, but it likely is. Clutch tip for launching hills for those who dread these things - We know that a clutch must be in or out - Noooooo slipping, no exceptions. But: When at an uphill stop, keep the pedal slightly below where it engages, and not on the floor. This way you are near the engagement point as opposed to x inches away when it's time to launch. It is indeed possible for anyone to learn zero backward movement with non abusive clutch engagements on any hill, anywhere. If you are having trouble with hill launches, it only means you need to find a place to practice. I launch 40 ton trucks with rolling back, so if I can do it, you can too. It helps to pre visualize a proper clutch / hill engagement. This makes one focus on the task, as opposed to distractions that can cause bad launches. Aside from a clutch brake, which we won't get into here, everything your clutch does with regard to engaged vs, disengaged happens an inch or so beneath the free play. ```````````````````````````` Off topic question - modern semi type trucks usually have what is called "idle away" technology. This means that one can engage the clutch without any application of throttle and the computer will dial in just the right amount of throttle. A major clutch and fuel saving feature. My question - have auto makers begun to use idle away? |
actions · 2015-Jan-1 6:19 am · (locked) |
fixrmanFrom a broken heart to a hole in the sky
Premium Member
join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA ·Verizon FiOS
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to Doctor Olds
That is pretty much what we learned in the Land Rover off-roading course. The Park Brake on [older Rovers at least] the models we drove was on the Transfer Box, so placing the T-Box in low range and engaging the Diff Lock would make it almost impossible for the vehicle to have undesired movement.
Defenders did not have a clutch switch and I questioned this omission. I got some story about the vehicle being able to be started if stuck on railway tracks or another similar situation that I found to be bollocks. |
actions · 2015-Jan-1 10:12 am · (locked) |
| fixrman |
to Grumpy4
My '87 Escort could do that. It wasn't really advertised, but the IAC would try to keep the engine speed up and one could basically let the idle control motor drive the car off. It is better demonstrated than described, unfortunately. |
actions · 2015-Jan-1 10:16 am · (locked) |
 Lurch77
Premium Member
join:2001-11-22
Green Bay, WI |
to fixrman
said by fixrman:Defenders did not have a clutch switch and I questioned this omission. I got some story about the vehicle being able to be started if stuck on railway tracks or another similar situation that I found to be bollocks. It is not unheard of for vehicles with true off road intentions to have this in the design. I'm honestly surprised someone with your vast experience is not aware of it. The Nissan Xterra is one vehicle that had a clutch interlock override button from the factory. Jeep Wranglers do not have it from the factory, but it is a common modification for serious off road enthusiasts, as itis on many other vehicles. It is most common on those with very low gearing. » www.4x4wire.com/tech/min ··· hbypass/ |
actions · 2015-Jan-1 11:02 am · (locked) |
3 recommendations |
to mackey
said by mackey:Not intended to be used in an emergency eh? I think we can all agree on the following: 1. The "brake" in question is primarily designed to be used for securing the vehicle while parked. 2. This "brake" is conventionally located on the rear wheels. Due to weight transfer, this is not the best location for any brake intended to stop a moving vehicle. If this brake had a primary purpose of emergency use for stopping a vehicle in motion, then I suggest it (technical/cost hurdles aside) would be located on the front wheels. In this location it would function equally well as a parking brake. 3. It is generally advisable to refer to a system or component by its primary purpose. To do otherwise would be counterproductive. *devil's advocate on* Are we better to call it an emergency brake, and imply that it is for primarily emergency use, or are we better to refer to it as a parking brake, and telegraph its true purpose? Few enough drivers already use it for its intended purpose. *devil's advocate off* As for an emergency, if anyone here lost their service brakes (regular brakes), a choice between evils clearly indicates attempting the use of a parking brake to slow/stop a moving vehicle; no-one here would deny that as a last resort. |
actions · 2015-Jan-1 11:53 am · (locked) |
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