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16163

SESpruill
@172.242.161.x

1 recommendation

SESpruill

Anon

[Appliances] Generac should be avoided

I purchased a Generac Centurian 10Kw standby generator from Lowes Home Improvement in January, 2011. Lowes delivered it and it was installed by a licensed electrician who followed the installation guidelines provided upon delivery. It has been maintained by the owners manual for oil changes, filter changes, etc. In addition, a Generac authorized service dealer has done ALL repairs to date.

1) The first problem began within weeks of installation when the generator battery charge was not being maintained. I was told by the authorized service dealer that this was a common problem and that I should purchase a smaller trickle charger to maintain the battery. Replacing the controller did not guarantee the problem would be fixed.

2) The second problem occurred about 9 months after installation when it was noticed that it was leaking oil. When running, it would "spray oil" all over the inside of the housing and out of the ventilation panel. Inspection revealed a crack in the casing near the cooling fan. The engine was replaced.

3) The third problem was a short in the control board which caused the whole system to shut down. The board was replaced and this also fixed the battery charging problem (#1).

4) The fourth problem was the assembly controller motor which caused the engine to rev and shut down with an error message "Over RPM". Replacement of the assembly controller corrected the problem.

5) The fifth problem was when the engine would not start. It would crank but never fire up. It was discovered there was no compression in the values, so the engine was replaced again.

6) The most recent problem (occurred in May, 2014) was when the engine would not start and the error message was "under voltage". I am told this is the rotor/stator side of the genset. The warranty ran out in January 2014.

I contacted Generac to request a warranty extension to correct the problem since this unit had had so many issues from the time of installation. After MANY calls and emails over 5 months and visits from several other service dealers attempting to diagnose the problems, Generac decided the warranty could not be extended because it had never been properly installed and maintained. Their reason…it was too close to the house. Then they asked about our usage since the system had over 1000 hrs when it finally died, 3 engines later. Remember, several Generac Authorized Service Dealers had been to the site and none of them told us we were out of spec or were using it incorrectly. We used the unit as a backup to our off-grid system. When the unit ran, it was usually on rainy days or in the middle of the night when our battery bank was depleted. “Standby” generators are not supposed to be used as a “primary power source” which is defined as any situation where there is no utility company supplying power. This was not clear to us until after we purchased the unit and spent 3 years trying to keep it running.

The bottom line: Generac is not interested in customer service. They are only interested in sales. If a unit is purchased from a Generac dealer and installed by a Generac dealer it does not guarantee that Generac will uphold its warranties. More importantly, the Generac standby units are not designed to take any heavy use such as continuous run time or high run hours. I was told by one dealer that most Generac units will have a major problem before 500 hrs. In addition, the engines are very inefficient. Our unit burned 2 gallons of LP per hr of use. A home owner would be better off to purchase a smaller portable gas powered generator with an electric key start. These will cost only a fraction of one standby unit and will last for years under regular use. Don’t waste your money on a Generac standby. The peace of mind you will feel from owning one will quickly disappear when the unit fails right when you need it most.
LittleBill
join:2013-05-24

LittleBill

Member

i give you credit for working through all those issues. i agree 1000 hours is nothing in terms of run time. their excuses also don't hold water. once a engine reaches a certain temperature it doesn't get hotter, thus as long as its cooling correctly, there should be no problem. and none of the issues you indicated has anything to do with long run times. other then the no compression issue.

generally what load do you run the generator at? light loads on generators are generally not recommended

BK
join:2001-09-10
Chicago, IL

BK to SESpruill

Member

to SESpruill
Get mad at Lowes for selling you the wrong equipment rather than Generac for "not supporting it."
LittleBill
join:2013-05-24

LittleBill

Member

how you figure its the wrong equipment?

garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

garys_2k to SESpruill

Premium Member

to SESpruill
Wow, bad luck! My 20KW Generac has been good so far (a few months), so I'll knock on wood.

Note that the OP has pasted/posted the same thing elsewhere:
»generac.pissedconsumer.c ··· 483.html
»www.ripoffreport.com/r/G ··· -1198016

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

7 recommendations

nunya to SESpruill

MVM

to SESpruill
These units are not designed for primary use (which is what you were using it for). Generac is very specific and upfront about this. Unfortunately, that means your warranty was voided the moment it was installed.
Yes, I get that you are on alternative power most of the time. These air cooled standbys and their lightweight alternators are not meant for the duties of an off grid installation.
You gambled and lost. You are probably lucky that Generac fixed what they did.

Most standby generators get 50-100 hours use per year. That's including exercising. That's why Generac started asking questions.

You should be pissed at the guy who sold it to you and they guy who installed it.

You need a prime / continuous generator, which is going to cost somewhere between an ass-load and a shit-ton more.
They will usually have water cooled engines and much heavier alternators.

incognito_2u
join:2005-03-15
Malverne, NY

incognito_2u to garys_2k

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to garys_2k
Withdrawn.
LittleBill
join:2013-05-24

LittleBill to nunya

Member

to nunya
i have a hard time with this comment, when i see portable generators that are air cooled and have 6k hours on them.

i can't speak toward the generation portion

the below is from the generac forum, i also don't see anything about run times being a issue on any website thus far.

" How long can this generator run at a single time?
There's a hurricane coming, how long can this generator run if we lose power? The last time our area lost power after a significant storm, it was over a week before power was restored. Can our generator run this long (or longer)?
State: PA - Pennsylvania
Age: 35-44
This product will backup: Other
asked 3 years, 4 months ago
Customer avatar
JG
Glenmoore
on 20kW Whole House Switch
Answer this question
1 answer
We design standby generators specifically for extended run times, so having it run for a week or longer is definitely possible. Your only limitation is the fuel type, meaning the size of your propane tank or the supply of natural gas. For natural gas at ½ load, the 20kW uses 206 cubic feet per hour. For liquid propane at ½ load, the 20kW uses 1.89 gallons per hour. Refer to the 20kW spec sheet for additional fuel consumption data. »www.generac.com/SpecSheets/0...

We also recommend stopping the unit and checking the oil after 24 hours of straight operation and performing scheduled maintenance after 200 hours of operation.
State: WI - Wisconsin

Staff"
TheMG
Premium Member
join:2007-09-04
Canada
MikroTik RB450G
Cisco DPC3008
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TheMG to SESpruill

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to SESpruill
Yep, residential standby generators are definitely not built for that kind of use. They're built down to a price. Engine and alternator components wear out relatively quickly. They're just not built to last past a few hundred hours.

As nunya stated, you need a generator that is rated for prime/continuous duty. Be prepared to dig deep into your wallet though, they're not cheap, but much more reliable and easier to maintain and will easily last a few thousand hours without any major problems.
LittleBill
join:2013-05-24

LittleBill

Member

when the "Staff" from generac tells you you can run it for a week at a time, do they mean 1 time? from the post i would disagree.

go visit an rv forum, all those generators see well over 1k hours, none of which are getting thrown out.

sorry i have a hard time believing 500 hours and the motor is shot. i have consumer grade lawn mowers which have more hours then that on them

cdru
Go Colts
MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

2 recommendations

cdru to SESpruill

MVM

to SESpruill
said by SESpruill :

The warranty ran out in January 2014.

I contacted Generac to request a warranty extension to correct the problem since this unit had had so many issues from the time of installation. After MANY calls and emails over 5 months and visits from several other service dealers attempting to diagnose the problems, Generac decided the warranty could not be extended because it had never been properly installed and maintained.

Did Generac charge you for repairs during your warranty period? It sounds to me like they did. Many of the issues sound like they were preventable factory quality issues, and not excusable. But they honored their warranty even though it explicitly states in their warranty that "Units used for prime power in place of existing utility power where utility is present or in place of utility power where utility power service does not normally exist" are excluded (exclusion #5).

I work in the HVAC industry and the response towards extending the warranty is the same that almost every HVAC company I've heard of warranty claims. Generac sold the unit to your dealer, the dealer sold it to you. Your transaction was not with Generac and while the provided a limited warranty, it was also a requirement that your dealer properly install it for your application. Generac has no control over what their dealers do, your beef is with your dealer, not Generac.

The bottom line: Generac is not interested in customer service. They are only interested in sales. If a unit is purchased from a Generac dealer and installed by a Generac dealer it does not guarantee that Generac will uphold its warranties.

Welcome to every consumer product purchased in modern times.

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

1 recommendation

nunya to LittleBill

MVM

to LittleBill
That's the kind of event you might have once every 3,4,5,6... years. The last time I was without power 7 days straight was 8-9 years ago. Since then, it's only been a few outages over 4 hours.

6,000 hours is a lot of use. Most small engines will only run 1,000 to 3,000 hours before a rebuild. I did have a Kohler 4.5 kW stationary unit that almost ran 3000 hours, but it was held together with duct tape and tie wraps. When it shot craps, it wasn't worth the $900 to fix it.
nunya

nunya to LittleBill

MVM

to LittleBill
said by LittleBill:

go visit an rv forum, all those generators see well over 1k hours, none of which are getting thrown out.

There's a big difference between an Onan or Kohler and a Generac.
LittleBill
join:2013-05-24

2 edits

LittleBill to nunya

Member

to nunya
nunya go visit an rv forum, these guys live on generators, those numbers are quite normal.

he's gone through 3 motors before 1000 hours, thats 330 hours per motor.

if you average it out as well 4 years at 1000 hours, is 250 hours a year, or less then 2 full weeks a year. definitely does not qualify as full time use. far from it. hell im close to that with ocassional rving and construction work.

the honda eu series you own, multiple people have 1k plus on those units. half the vendors in new york run those for their food carts. they run 8 hours a day everyday.

EDIT.

i have done some reading on prime generators. No, i did not know there was such a thing as a prime generator. i figured as long as the generator stays in temps you were good, which is partially true.

that said, i have read that the main difference between most generators with a standby vs a prime rating is *shockingly* to derate the unit about 10-15%, which makes sense.

that being said very few people run that close to the 100% rating, i would be curious to know what the constant load is for his generator, considering he is on battery i would assume it is very low, except to charge his battery bank.
LittleBill

LittleBill to nunya

Member

to nunya
not everyone owns onan gennys, most are now on the inverter series honda's, yammy's or champions.
said by nunya:

said by LittleBill:

go visit an rv forum, all those generators see well over 1k hours, none of which are getting thrown out.

There's a big difference between an Onan or Kohler and a Generac.


NeverYouMind
@74.75.218.x

NeverYouMind to SESpruill

Anon

to SESpruill
You're expecting $15,000 performance for $2,000-$3,000. As you see, not likely to happen.
rody_44
Premium Member
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA

rody_44 to SESpruill

Premium Member

to SESpruill
Bottom Line, its not Generacs problem you are using it for purposes its not designed for.

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

nunya to SESpruill

MVM

to SESpruill
Don't get me wrong. I'm not a Generac hater. For its intended purpose, their stuff usually does alright. I do not care for their pyramid scheme marketing program. Not sure if they are still doing this, but they wanted me to buy X generators and keep them on hand. I might install 3-5 generators in a good year. No-way! Then I'd get the "privilege" of putting giant Generac signs on the side of my trucks.
I did go to a couple of their dog and pony shows. They do a good job of teaching proper installation and such, but a suckish job on sales. Sales and sizing is a joke. Everybody is going to push whatever units they have stuck in their shop / storage units - because Generac made them buy the units to begin with. I think it's their way of trying to bypass the supply house.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

1 recommendation

Mr Matt to SESpruill

Member

to SESpruill
said by SESpruill :

Lowes delivered it and it was installed by a licensed electrician who followed the installation guidelines provided upon delivery.

First of all Lowes sold you the wrong type of generator. Several years ago, Generac introduced a model called the Ecogen and was only available through Generac Guardian dealers. It is a 6 KW unit specifically designed for off grid power backup. Starting is controlled by a contact closure rather than utility power failure. Usually the Ecogen generator served to power the charger for the main power storage batteries. The charger was configured to start the generator when the off grid storage battery system voltage dropped to a set voltage and no wind or solar power was available. For reliability the engine ran at a lower speed, I believe 2700 RPM and used a belt drive to step up the rotating field speed to 3600 RPM to maintain a 60Hz line frequency. It included a lubricating oil storage tank and cooling system to extend the oil change interval to 500 hours or about 21 days. It came wired to provide 120 Volts with a 50 Amp circuit breaker. Generac offers a 25 Amp two pole breaker kit and instructions to rewire the unit to provide 240 Volts where required. Generac introduced a 15 KW Ecogen generator this year with some additional features for off gird users.

The installer was blowing smoke under number one. Generac standby generators include a trickle charger but depend on utility power to keep the starting battery charged. Did the installer, install a generator that was returned for some reason. The engine can fail if certain initial maintenance is not performed, specifically valve lash adjustments and an initial oil change after the first 20 hours of use.

I know one owner of a 20KW Generac air cooled unit that was installed early in 2004. Hurricane damage cut off their power for eight days later that same year. After they ran on the generator for four days the maintenance company called them and advised them that they had to change the oil every 100 hours in order to keep the warranty in force. The maintenance company changed the oil and presented them with a bill for over $100.00 normally received only once a year. The propane distributor that had refilled their 250 Gallon Propane tank earlier that month advised them that if they had been running the generator 24 X 7 they probably needed a refill. The distributor refilled the tank the same day and presented them with a bill for over $300.00 for fuel. After receiving that bill, they rationed their power, only running the generator about eight hours a day to keep their refrigerator and freezer cold.

The generator was reliable for about 5 Years until Home Depot dropped the ball. Normally the owner was contacted on an annual basis under a maintenance program through Home Depot. When Home Depot negotiated a contract with a new installation company they failed to transfer some of their existing customers records to the new company. The unit was not serviced and failed to start during a power outage because the low lubrication oil sensor had tripped. The unit was serviced and worked properly for another year or so when it failed to start during a power failure because the trickle charger had failed and the starting battery discharged. The next failure to start was caused by ants shorting out the controller board. I have not spoken to them recently so I do not know the current status of their generator.
tomupnorth
join:2005-01-14
UpperMidwest

tomupnorth to TheMG

Member

to TheMG
said by TheMG:

Yep, residential standby generators are definitely not built for that kind of use. They're built down to a price. Engine and alternator components wear out relatively quickly. They're just not built to last past a few hundred hours.

As nunya stated, you need a generator that is rated for prime/continuous duty. Be prepared to dig deep into your wallet though, they're not cheap, but much more reliable and easier to maintain and will easily last a few thousand hours without any major problems.

Tell us please about quality continuous-use generators--who makes them and such, for residential use...

LazMan
Premium Member
join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA

1 recommendation

LazMan

Premium Member

I do emergency and generated power for Telco's and life safety systems...

Most vendors make units rated for prime or continuous duty; they'll typically have better bearings, improved oiling and cooling, and heavier windings.

Personally, I like Onan for smaller engines (under 50 kW) and Cat for larger (I have Cat units upto 2.5 Mw that I've personally worked on...)

There's nothing wrong with Generac; I've got dozens of them - but they produce several grades - and you didn't get one rated for your application; for whatever reason. Maybe you went cheap, maybe the installer didn't understand your application, maybe the supplier didn't understand your needs... Doesn't matter, end result is the same.

Lastly, 1000 hours in 3 years is pretty heavy use... I have 10 year old packages with half that number of hours.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

1 recommendation

Mr Matt to tomupnorth

Member

to tomupnorth
said by tomupnorth:

Tell us please about quality continuous-use generators--who makes them and such, for residential use...

The following companies manufacture prime power rated generators:
Kubota
Perkins
Caterpillar
John Deer
Cummins
Eaton
and others.

The build quality and materials used to construct prime power generators are several levels higher than low cost standby generators whether air cooled or water cooled and the price reflects that fact. If properly maintained prime power generators are designed for long term operation from 10,000 up to to 15,000 Hours for a natural gas/propane generator and up to 20,000+ hours for a diesel generator before a rebuild is necessary. Air Cooled generators normally require an engine rebuild after 3,000 to 5,000 hours of operation. Furthermore most prime power generators require a lubrication oil change every 500 hours rather than 100 or 200 hours required by low cost standby generators. One reason for the increased durability is that prime power generators use four pole generators and only have to turn at 1800 RPM to provide 60 HZ AC.

lolwut
@69.118.94.x

lolwut

Anon

why has it gone over so many peoples heads that, hours on this is *nothing* you guys have any idea how many start cycles this thing had to have had... who knows if it even got up to operation temp ever.

The thing running for a week straight is WAY better than 20 start/stops in that same time frame.

from jan 11 to jan 15

So say 4 years (more time than it was)

1000 hours on a standby generator? A cheap one...

I don't think in my whole life I ever been with out power for 1/2 of that time.

I'd love to know the number of start stops this thing saw...

Bottom line is, OP called a 10kw standby "inefficient" (no generator is, let alone a cheap standby, just go get grid power) wanted to have this thing used where it should not be. Expected service techs to know that there was no grid power etc... and is pissed that retarded lowes sold the wrong thing. And I wonder if it was ever said "Oh this is going to be used with out electric service is that okay" and even so, I bet lowes would have no idea about a no power setup...

John Galt6
Forward, March
Premium Member
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp

1 recommendation

John Galt6

Premium Member

said by lolwut :

...and even so, I bet lowes would have no idea about a no power setup...

I'm surprised he found anyone to help him at Lowes. I never can find anyone to help me.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt to SESpruill

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to SESpruill
said by SESpruill :

More importantly, the Generac standby units are not designed to take any heavy use such as continuous run time or high run hours.

You are correct regarding low cost standby generators. If you are considering replacing your Generac first see if Generac will give you a deal on a trade in on the new 15 KW Ecogen generator which should meet your needs. If you are not satisfied with their response, go to this website for a whole list of manufactures of off grid generators:

»www.buildwithpropane.com ··· m/#apply

Note: Financial incentives apply.+++++

Let us know how things turn out.
LittleBill
join:2013-05-24

1 edit

LittleBill

Member

said by Mr Matt:

said by SESpruill :

More importantly, the Generac standby units are not designed to take any heavy use such as continuous run time or high run hours.

You are correct regarding low cost standby generators. If you are considering replacing your Generac first see if Generac will give you a deal on a trade in on the new 15 KW Ecogen generator which should meet your needs. If you are not satisfied with their response, go to this website for a whole list of manufactures of off grid generators:

»www.buildwithpropane.com ··· m/#apply

Note: Financial incentives apply.+++++

Let us know how things turn out.

this is prolly going to be my last comment as it appears i am the only one who seems to think its all marketing.

i looked up the eco gen, and the centurian gen.

you guys all keep saying what a piece of junk it is.

hate to break it to ya but its the same motor between all of them.

they appear to only make about 4 motors between all the generators

»gens.lccdn.com/GeneracCo ··· hure.pdf

i have also attached both pdf docs which spec out what the motor and generation units are

the only different between the eco and the centurian, is the deration like i said was prolly the only difference

the 11k unit centurian uses the same gt-530 motor as the 6k eco. it also spins it 1k slower.

oil filters are the same between both units and same amount of oil.

»www.partsfortechs.com/as ··· 572.html

thus they derated the generation head, and slowed the motor, and now it has a warranty and 500 hour oil changes. and its a bit quieter

i still don't believe slowing down a motor 1k is going to be the reason it will survive past 300 hours.

we still don't even know what the op's load was on the generator, he could have easily been in the derated area of the 6kw, and as i pointed out in earlier posts, the staff from generac themselves said the only thing that matters is how much gas you have, and they designed to run weeks at a time....nobody seems to be touching that post
LittleBill

LittleBill

Member

Click for full size
ecogen.pdf
2,963,857 bytes
Click for full size
centurian.pdf
1,364,620 bytes

TheTechGuru
join:2004-03-25
TEXAS

3 recommendations

TheTechGuru to SESpruill

Member

to SESpruill
For a primary power generator one needs to go with DIESEL.

They're built for the long haul, water cooled too.

Coma
Thanks Steve
Premium Member
join:2001-12-30
NirvanaLand

Coma

Premium Member

said by TheTechGuru:

For a primary power generator one needs to go with DIESEL.

They're built for the long haul, water cooled too.


Years ago, I researched generators with the idea of powering of my 3 adjacent houses and settled on Kohler a 20KW-25KW diesel running off my 275 gal. fuel oil tank. But at $20K plus installed, I decided, fuck it and bought a cheap ass ($3K) Chinese generator. Still haven't used it in 2 years . . .

whizkid3
MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY

1 recommendation

whizkid3 to SESpruill

MVM

to SESpruill
Lots of posts here; and sorry, could not read them all.

I am with nunya 100%. Furthermore, I think SESpruill has it completely backwards, based on his misunderstanding of generator ratings (as was stated in his post). After reading the story with fascination, I would have to say what a phenomenal job Generac has done with their customer service - much more than the OP would have gotten out of any other generator manufacturer. Even though the OP was operating the generator completely against the terms of his his warranty - by operating the unit as a prime/continuous unit instead of emergency stand by - Generac actually replaced the engine twice, when they could have simply voided the warranty. That a company would honor a voided warranty like that, at a huge cost/loss to themselves, is amazing in this day and age.

Only after the warranty period was up, the OP is unhappy, because Generac would not continue to replace engines for free. What is this supposed to be? A lifetime deal? This is not an issue with Generac. Every generator manufacturer classifies generators as either standby, prime or continuous. This is internationally codified in ISO standards, along with run-time formulas, etc. The OP clearly ran his generator way over and above any manufacturer's expectations for emergency standby rated generators. No wonder it kept on breaking. Standby-rated generators are not manufactured to withstand long duration run-times, nor repeated continuous running, nor the sheer length of hours that this unit was run.

Kudos to Generac. I am impressed with their desire to keep a customer happy. This mirrors my experience with Generac generators over the years.