dslreports logo
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc
Search similar:


uniqs
3210
brianstretch
join:2001-12-31
Ann Arbor, MI

brianstretch

Member

[Bill] Comcast reviewed my account, is raising my bill $20/mo

"During a recent review of your account, we found that you are not being charged for one or more of the following: Additional Outlets, DTA equipment, or the High Definition Technology service that you are using with the services to which you currently subscribe. Effective with your next bill, you will be billed $19.90 for these services plus applicable taxes and fees."

WHAT?! We currently pay for basic Internet and cable TV, one broken SD settop box and two CableCards. Is anyone else getting these letters? Between this and the likelyhood of service deterioration after Comcast spins off their Michigan operations I'm about to lose my argument to avoid AT&T U-verse. Haven't called Comcast yet, trying to figure out what they're talking about first.
Robyn79
Premium Member
join:2014-12-09

Robyn79

Premium Member

That $19.90 would - in my service area - be the cost of 2 additional regular full feature set top boxes or cable cards ($9.95 each) in addition to the free one you get bundled in the cost of your service. If you're connecting 3 TVs to Comcast - well that's the way it works today.

In terms of a game plan if you decide to stay with Comcast* - I'd exchange the broken set top box for one that works. As for the cable cards - if you're talking about the cable card technology that is found in some older TVs (I still have one of those) - I'd pull out the cable cards and substitute 2 DTA boxes assuming the DTA boxes are sufficient to give you the stations you watch. In my area - Comcast charges $1.99/month each for DTA boxes. You may or may not be able to get a program guide on a DTA box (that feature is currently being rolled out but isn't available everywhere yet). But - IIRC - I could never get a program guide using a cable card anyway (I pulled out my cable card years ago and put in a set top box). Robyn

*AT&T U-Verse isn't available where I live - so I can't compare that service with Comcast service.
brianstretch
join:2001-12-31
Ann Arbor, MI

brianstretch

Member

The two CableCards are in my Ceton and SilconDust HDTV tuners, quad and triple channel tuners respectively. I use a Xbox360 as a settop box for the big TV and watch TV on PCs. Using CableCard tuners is/was a neat way to get around being extorted for HDTV under FCC rules, if a bit of a pain to set up. Windows Media Center makes for a superior DVR too. I've been too lazy to haul the broken settop box back to Comcast, was only using it as a backup in case WMC got cranky.

I was being charged $1.50/mo for one of the CableCards.

My guess is that this is some combination of HDTV fee and/or charging more for CableCards, which they're not supposed to do.

caster
@198.41.85.x

caster

Anon

get rid of the SD box and just keep the 2 cable cards.
Robyn79
Premium Member
join:2014-12-09

Robyn79 to brianstretch

Premium Member

to brianstretch
said by brianstretch:

The two CableCards are in my Ceton and SilconDust HDTV tuners, quad and triple channel tuners respectively. I use a Xbox360 as a settop box for the big TV and watch TV on PCs. Using CableCard tuners is/was a neat way to get around being extorted for HDTV under FCC rules, if a bit of a pain to set up. Windows Media Center makes for a superior DVR too. I've been too lazy to haul the broken settop box back to Comcast, was only using it as a backup in case WMC got cranky.

I was being charged $1.50/mo for one of the CableCards.

My guess is that this is some combination of HDTV fee and/or charging more for CableCards, which they're not supposed to do.

I did a quick Google. And - best I can tell - reading various discussions - including some threads here - Comcast is switching over the CableCard pricing to regular STB pricing (minus a credit in various amounts - depending on region - for user owned equipment). The rollout isn't very regular. It seems to go in fits and starts - and is area dependent. Also - the way they're doing this varies in terms of the exact fees that are being charged.

Also - although various people claim that this violates FCC rules - I didn't see any links that substantiated this claim directly. Seems to be an old wive's tale/misreading of FCC rules best I can tell (maybe there's a real rule on point out there - but no one linked it in the discussions I went through).

Anyway - I don't have a dog in this fight. Google it yourself - and see what you come up with. Robyn

P.S. Other providers - including UVerse and FIOS - seem to be doing the same thing. So I would look carefully before I changed providers based on this aspect of their service.
adam9c1
join:2014-05-01
USA

adam9c1

Member

In order to provide a better user experience Crapcast is raising my bill $27

Cheers.
brianstretch
join:2001-12-31
Ann Arbor, MI

brianstretch

Member

I took the broken SD settop box back to Comcast today and asked the young lady at the desk about the $19.90 increase. If I understood correctly, Comcast tried to incorrectly charge me for settop boxes rather than CableCards. She fixed it. We'll see what the next bill looks like but hopefully things are back to normal.
saratoga66
join:2002-08-22
Saratoga, CA

saratoga66

Member

Cable cards are subject to the same additional outlet charge as Comcast provided boxes. The only difference is you should get a $2.50 discount for customer owned equipment for each outlet.
Zoder
join:2002-04-16
Miami, FL

1 edit

Zoder to Robyn79

Member

to Robyn79
said by Robyn79:

Also - although various people claim that this violates FCC rules - I didn't see any links that substantiated this claim directly. Seems to be an old wive's tale/misreading of FCC rules best I can tell (maybe there's a real rule on point out there - but no one linked it in the discussions I went through).

While it might not be an actual violation to the letter, it's a violation of the spirit of the rule. The purpose is to create competition with STBs supplied by providers.

Comcast is claiming that of the $9.95 fee only $2.50 of that fee is going to the equipment and the rest is going towards the outlet. It would take Comcast years to break even on the equipment costs at that price and we know from their modem rental fee, that is not how they operate. They like to turn it into a profit center as fast as possible.

The FCC is basically turning a blind eye on this.

The fact that the DTA now costs more ($2.99) than the equipment credit cable card users are getting speaks volumes to me.
Robyn79
Premium Member
join:2014-12-09

Robyn79

Premium Member

said by Zoder:

said by Robyn79:

Also - although various people claim that this violates FCC rules - I didn't see any links that substantiated this claim directly. Seems to be an old wive's tale/misreading of FCC rules best I can tell (maybe there's a real rule on point out there - but no one linked it in the discussions I went through).

While it might not be an actual violation to the letter, it's a violation of the spirit of the rule. The purpose is to create competition with STBs supplied by providers.

Comcast is claiming that of the $9.95 fee only $2.50 of that fee is going to the equipment and the rest is going towards the outlet. It would take Comcast years to break even on the equipment costs at that price and we know from their modem rental fee, that is not how they operate. They like to turn it into a profit center as fast as possible.

The FCC is basically turning a blind eye on this.

The fact that the DTA now costs more ($2.99) than the equipment credit cable card users are getting speaks volumes to me.

As a (retired) Florida lawyer (who practiced in Miami) - I really don't know what you mean by the "spirit" of the law. Either what Comcast does violates the law/regulations - or it doesn't.

And I don't think anyone (including me) needs as many TVs as I have (6). It's an indulgence - a luxury. Certainly not a necessity. And - if I or someone else wants that many TVs - we have to be prepared to pay for them and the equipment to get them up and running. And you won't get my sympathy if you have to pay a lot for it.

OTOH - if you go on Medicare and can't find a good primary care doc who will take you as a Medicare patient - you'll have my ear (my husband and I pay $8k/year to be in an excellent concierge primary care practice because the other primary care options where we live are lousy). Robyn
Zoder
join:2002-04-16
Miami, FL

Zoder

Member

What I mean is there was an intent behind the rule. A healthy retail market for STBs and devices that could interconnect with digital cable systems so that the cable companies and their equipment partners (what was then Motorola and Scientific Atlanta, now Arris and Cisco) what not control the market.

Comcast found the best way to wiggle around the intent without breaking the law. There is no financial incentive with the way Comcast currently prices their cable cards for someone to buy their own equipment. The only people who would do so are die-hards who like the other platform better and don't care how much it costs or how long it takes to break even.

You'll notice that DOCSIS modems, where there is a healthy market, have a fast breakeven point.

Whether or not it's a luxury, it's a huge industry that most Americans do business with. Over The Top content has now found a way to get around the cablecard issue by using streaming over the internet to get the content to consumer devices. But even here Comcast tries to stifle competition and they should not be able to use their market power to do so. For example it took them forever to let Comcast customers use their subscription credentials to sign on to the app for HBO Go on Roku compared to other providers.
solarein
join:2010-12-03
San Francisco, CA

solarein to Robyn79

Member

to Robyn79
said by Robyn79:

As a (retired) Florida lawyer (who practiced in Miami) - I really don't know what you mean by the "spirit" of the law. Either what Comcast does violates the law/regulations - or it doesn't.

You are a retired lawyer and you've never heard of judicial interpretation?
brianstretch
join:2001-12-31
Ann Arbor, MI

brianstretch to Robyn79

Member

to Robyn79
All I know is that I received confirmation via email that my bill is going back down to where it was. First CableCard is free, second is $1.50/mo. No more Comcast settop boxes. Fees vary per region though I believe.

Yes, TV is a luxury and if I had to I could do without it. Everything I watch will be out on Blu-ray or streaming eventually. Others in this house disagree, thus the PC tuners and WMC. If we're going to waste time and money on TV we're going to do it correctly. Internet is a necessity though.

As for medical expenses, most illness shouldn't exist in the first place but instead we fight over how to pay for a very corrupt system. Read Weston A. Price, Robb Wolf, Joel Salatin, Andrew Cutler (mercury), etc. Old story, read what they did to the doc who figured out that hand washing was a good idea (Semmelweis).
rody_44
Premium Member
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA

1 edit

rody_44 to Zoder

Premium Member

to Zoder
A very black and white way of looking at things. The problem is it takes zero account for the cost of supporting customer equipment (regarding rental fees). As far as spirit of the rule. Its widely considered that rule was a huge failure and accomplished nothing but drive the cost of all boxes up. One service call do to said equipment and comcast can have more in that customer owned box than the customer himself does.
rody_44

1 edit

rody_44 to solarein

Premium Member

to solarein
Lawyers dont believe in a term spirit of the law. Its either a law or it isnt a law.
solarein
join:2010-12-03
San Francisco, CA

solarein

Member

All laws have to be interpreted before they can be applied. Interpretation isn't a straightforward process and that's where concepts like "spirit of the law" come in.
rody_44
Premium Member
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA

rody_44

Premium Member

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le ··· _the_law

Of course it could be argued that the FCC merely makes rules. Some of which is adopted into law by the higher courts. This not being one of them, so can we even apply spirit of the law to a rule that was never even adopted into law..
Zoder
join:2002-04-16
Miami, FL

Zoder to rody_44

Member

to rody_44
said by rody_44:

A very black and white way of looking at things. The problem is it takes zero account for the cost of supporting customer equipment (regarding rental fees). As far as spirit of the rule. Its widely considered that rule was a huge failure and accomplished nothing but drive the cost of all boxes up. One service call do to said equipment and comcast can have more in that customer owned box than the customer himself does.

Comcast will charge you $60 (just went up to $70 here on the 1st) for a truck roll for a problem with your own equipment or internal wiring if you don't pay for the protection plan. Heck, they even charge the fee to customers when they shouldn't be, but that's a whole other matter. So aren't they covered on that end?
Robyn79
Premium Member
join:2014-12-09

1 recommendation

Robyn79 to solarein

Premium Member

to solarein
said by solarein:

said by Robyn79:

As a (retired) Florida lawyer (who practiced in Miami) - I really don't know what you mean by the "spirit" of the law. Either what Comcast does violates the law/regulations - or it doesn't.

You are a retired lawyer and you've never heard of judicial interpretation?

Judges interpret laws/regulations/etc. when they're ambiguous. I haven't seen any ambiguities in this particular area. Robyn
Robyn79

1 edit

Robyn79 to brianstretch

Premium Member

to brianstretch
said by brianstretch:

All I know is that I received confirmation via email that my bill is going back down to where it was. First CableCard is free, second is $1.50/mo. No more Comcast settop boxes. Fees vary per region though I believe.

Yes, TV is a luxury and if I had to I could do without it. Everything I watch will be out on Blu-ray or streaming eventually. Others in this house disagree, thus the PC tuners and WMC. If we're going to waste time and money on TV we're going to do it correctly. Internet is a necessity though...

I agree for the most part - although some of how things work with bundles isn't very rational in terms of pricing based on my prior experience.

A lot of movies are available pretty fast on Comcast on Demand (pay per view - not free). But you can't get these movies for free elsewhere either. Robyn

Note that for many people - especially a lot of seniors - TV is more important than internet.
Robyn79

Robyn79 to Zoder

Premium Member

to Zoder
said by Zoder:

said by rody_44:

A very black and white way of looking at things. The problem is it takes zero account for the cost of supporting customer equipment (regarding rental fees). As far as spirit of the rule. Its widely considered that rule was a huge failure and accomplished nothing but drive the cost of all boxes up. One service call do to said equipment and comcast can have more in that customer owned box than the customer himself does.

Comcast will charge you $60 (just went up to $70 here on the 1st) for a truck roll for a problem with your own equipment or internal wiring if you don't pay for the protection plan. Heck, they even charge the fee to customers when they shouldn't be, but that's a whole other matter. So aren't they covered on that end?

You want to self-insure - you pay per service call. This was the case when we had AT&T service too. What's wrong with that?

And what electrician/plumber/similar would allow you to pay $X/month for unlimited service calls? Get real guys - where do you live? LaLa Land? Robyn
rody_44
Premium Member
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA

3 edits

rody_44 to Zoder

Premium Member

to Zoder
No they are not covered. Just a simple search on this site will show how many people get the service charged waived. In a perfect world yea thats the way it would be and level the actual charges out. In the real world everyone calls and explains how they didnt understand how it works and was never told the charge would apply. I have been a customer for over 21 years and have never paid a service call visit charge. With 45 million customers i highly doubt im the only customer that has never actually paid for a service call. Do i game the system, sure id do just like the other 45 million customers. They went as far as telling everyone that they would be charged and letting it for the tech to remove. Didnt matter, still worked to say they didnt inform me of the charge and if they didnt remove it i would file with the bbb and the franchise office.

When i worked for comcast (contractor which means paying subscriber) was 5 years ago the actual comcast cost for a service call was 150.00 for a 15 minute service call taking everything into account. !5 minutes on job usually means around 45 minutes tech time with driving time. Even at 70 dollars and paid it doesnt near cover the costs.
Robyn79
Premium Member
join:2014-12-09

Robyn79

Premium Member

said by rody_44:

No they are not covered. Just a simple search on this site will show how many people get the service charged waived. In a perfect world yea thats the way it would be and level the actual charges out. In the real world everyone calls and explains how they didnt understand how it works and was never told the charge would apply. I have been a customer for over 21 years and have never paid a service call visit charge. With 45 million customers i highly doubt im the only customer that has never actually paid for a service call. Do i game the system, sure id do just like the other 45 million customers. They went as far as telling everyone that they would be charged and letting it for the tech to remove. Didnt matter, still worked to say they didnt inform me of the charge and if they didnt remove it i would file with the bbb and the franchise office.

When i worked for comcast (contractor which means paying subscriber) was 5 years ago the actual comcast cost for a service call was 150.00 for a 15 minute service call taking everything into account. !5 minutes on job usually means around 45 minutes tech time with driving time. Even at 70 dollars and paid it doesnt near cover the costs.

I've never paid for a service call either (at least not any I can remember). When we were trouble shooting our wireless recently - we did have a service call. And we were supposed to be charged. But the charge was waived because the technician didn't find anything wrong/anything he could fix.

My father did pay a fee to have his whole house DVR installed. But that's an installation fee - not a service call fee.

When it comes to this whole set top box thing - IIRC - way back a long time ago - you needed a set top box for every TV (can't remember whether there was a separate charge for each one - but I suspect so). One of the happiest days in my life was when you didn't need these boxes any more - and could plug all your TVs directly the wall. Can't remember exactly when that was - maybe about 1990 or so? For me - it wasn't a money thing - it was a decorating thing. I didn't have to worry about hiding all those clunky boxes and their wires.

Then the pendulum started to swing the other way. I resisted it for a long time - trying to use things like cable card TVs (remember those?) - so I wouldn't have to get clunky boxes again. But cable card TVs never worked all that well. So I finally bit the bullet and went back (to the future) and got set top boxes.

As for Comcast charges today - you pay for every TV (although you do get one "free" with your service) - I don't know whether they make sense. But Comcast isn't alone when it comes to paying "per device". When it comes to outfits like Netflix and Amazon Prime - you get 2 devices included in your basic membership - and have to pay more if you use the services on more than 2 devices at a time. You can pay more to use more devices simultaneously - but I think the maximum number of streaming devices on a Netflix account is 4. And - with Netflix or Amazon Prime - you're not using their equipment at all.

When it comes to cell phones - it's similar. For the most part - you need a new phone number (at extra cost) for every phone you have. And you can't avoid this by owning your own phone. Wired phones are different. You can use as many as you want on a single wired connection. Kind of like Comcast used to be. OTOH - when it comes to land lines - way back when - when you had to rent equipment from the old "Bell" companies - you paid per telephone.

IOW - I don't think this has anything to do with whether or not you own equipment. It's about how communications companies can maximize revenue from users. Different models work better for different/different types of companies. But the bottom line is maximizing revenue. And - although I sure don't enjoy paying for 5 additional set top boxes - I doubt anyone is going to shed a tear for someone who has 6 TVs. Robyn
Zoder
join:2002-04-16
Miami, FL

Zoder to Robyn79

Member

to Robyn79
said by Robyn79:

Comcast will charge you $60 (just went up to $70 here on the
You want to self-insure - you pay per service call. This was the case when we had AT&T service too. What's wrong with that?

And what electrician/plumber/similar would allow you to pay $X/month for unlimited service calls? Get real guys - where do you live? LaLa Land? Robyn

I think you misunderstood me. There is nothing wrong with the customer paying for service calls when the problem is with their own equipment or wiring.

Most companies like Comcast and AT&T offer an optional service plan you can pay montly for that will cover customer related issues. I'm sure there are terms in the fine print that's there to prevent abuse.

Now Comcast is not supposed to be charging for service calls if the tech finds the problem is with the Comcast network or Comcast owned equipment that the customer is leasing.

I was saying that since customers who use cablecards should be paying for truck rolls to troubleshoot their customer owned equipment than it should not be a factor in how Comcast is coming up with the equipment cost price to satisfy the FCC rule.

rody_44 is saying that customers will game the system which is a fair point.

The key is how Comcast is applying the $9.95 STB fees in their accounting. If they are only applying $2.50 of the fee towards the equipment in the general ledger than that's fine. If they are applying more than that but using a different formula to comply with the FCC rule, than that is sketchy. They are not going to publicly release that information but the FCC could probably request that info as part of the merger review. Whether they have done so, I have no idea.
Zoder

Zoder to Robyn79

Member

to Robyn79
said by Robyn79:

As for Comcast charges today - you pay for every TV (although you do get one "free" with your service) - I don't know whether they make sense. But Comcast isn't alone when it comes to paying "per device". When it comes to outfits like Netflix and Amazon Prime - you get 2 devices included in your basic membership - and have to pay more if you use the services on more than 2 devices at a time. You can pay more to use more devices simultaneously - but I think the maximum number of streaming devices on a Netflix account is 4. And - with Netflix or Amazon Prime - you're not using their equipment at all.

That's because streaming companies normally have to pay more to the content companies the more devices you are using.

There is a debate whether this actually applies to companies like Comcast, Dish, AT&T, DirecTV, etc... for the television packages. Normally when you hear about the cost these companies have to pay for a channel the cost is mentioned per household not per outlet. I've yet to see news reports list cost per outlet in these contracts but would like to see links if there are any.

I agree that it is mostly a way to maximize revenue. The FCC as authorized by the Telecommunications Act of 1996 has tried to come up with a system that lets cable companies keep their networks secure while at the same time giving customers alternatives to having to rent a STB for each digital cable outlet but it hasn't worked out too well.

The latest idea was called AllVid and would have replaced cablecard and been compatible with all of the technologies. Digital Cable, satellite, iptv, vdsl. It was proposed almost 5 years ago and hasn't really gone anywhere. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AllVid
Robyn79
Premium Member
join:2014-12-09

Robyn79 to brianstretch

Premium Member

to brianstretch
Zoder - I did misunderstand you in part. Thanks for clarifying.

I think what Comcast is doing is - step by step - pretty much charging customers per TV and making sure it knows about every connection we have. And the whole thing about customer owned equipment is kind of a red herring. Whether this violates any FCC rules - I don't know. And - since I am not and have never been a TWC customer - I don't have any opinion about the merger. Robyn
Zoder
join:2002-04-16
Miami, FL

Zoder to rody_44

Member

to rody_44
said by rody_44:

No they are not covered. Just a simple search on this site will show how many people get the service charged waived. In a perfect world yea thats the way it would be and level the actual charges out. In the real world everyone calls and explains how they didnt understand how it works and was never told the charge would apply. I have been a customer for over 21 years and have never paid a service call visit charge. With 45 million customers i highly doubt im the only customer that has never actually paid for a service call. Do i game the system, sure id do just like the other 45 million customers. They went as far as telling everyone that they would be charged and letting it for the tech to remove. Didnt matter, still worked to say they didnt inform me of the charge and if they didnt remove it i would file with the bbb and the franchise office.

This is probably why you hear more horror stories about this on the Comcast customer support and billing forums. They must have cracked down. They now charge the fee automatically and it seems to be very hard to get off even when it's a Comcast problem the tech was sent out for.

halfband
Premium Member
join:2002-06-01
Huntsville, AL

2 edits

halfband to brianstretch

Premium Member

to brianstretch
said by brianstretch:

All I know is that I received confirmation via email that my bill is going back down to where it was. First CableCard is free, second is $1.50/mo. No more Comcast settop boxes. Fees vary per region though I believe.

Be aware that if you account is audited again you may once again receive the same kind of letter.
For your account the SD box would have counted as the primary outlet, this would be included in the cable TV package price. The two cable cards would count as additional outlets, which would be billed at the SD box rate (each) and which would then receive the "customer owned equipment credit (each).
Your previous billing of 1st card free and second card $1.50 was under an older interpretation of comcasts billing system. The current party line on cable cards is that the first card is free if it is the primary outlet (it is not in your case as you had the SD box.) The second card is $1.50 if it is installed in the same device (some tivos etc used multiple cards back in the single stream card days.) In your case again it is not in the same device so it is an additional outlet. I believe the $19.90 was an attempt to charge you for two additional cable card outlets, 2x$9.95 which is probably your areas SD box rate. They were not however giving the correct customer equipment credit.
If you have returned the SD box then the first cable card would be assigned as your primary outlet (your paying for a box in the TV package so you will get an equipment credit and essentially be told the cablecard is free.) If they detect that the second cablecard is not in the same device (this can be seen through the pairing information for the card) they may try to reinstate one of the extra outlet fees.
It is comcasts desire to charge per outlet (for the digital stream to each outlet) but as always your mileage may vary based on your service area.
brianstretch
join:2001-12-31
Ann Arbor, MI

brianstretch

Member

said by halfband:

Be aware that if you account is audited again you may once again receive the same kind of letter.

Yup, that just happened. Now they're demanding another $15.23/mo. Coincidentally I also received yet another letter from U-verse trying to bribe me to switch. Dammit Comcast, you're not making this easy for me.

caster
@sysvana.com

caster

Anon

said by brianstretch:

said by halfband:

Be aware that if you account is audited again you may once again receive the same kind of letter.

Yup, that just happened. Now they're demanding another $15.23/mo. Coincidentally I also received yet another letter from U-verse trying to bribe me to switch. Dammit Comcast, you're not making this easy for me.

seems about right added outlet + HD fee / cable card HD fee - $2.50X2.