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uberdome
join:2013-10-23
MA

uberdome

Member

Mix ePMP and Airmax radios, or choose one?

I'm a startup WISP and I've been experimenting with UBNT / Airmax hardware for over a year and have been pleased with the results. In the past 3 weeks, I finally got my local approvals, installed one small site (Rocket M5 w/ 10 dbi Omni), and have signed up 1 customer. Everything is awesome.

Over this past year, however, I've been following the ePMP releases and reviews. As I prepare to setup my second site, even more ePMP hardware is becoming available and I'm more seriously debating whether I should consider ePMP hardware.

[I was hoping to answer this question myself with empirical testing, so I also installed a Nanostation M2 and ePMP 1000 2.4GHz at the same site. I ended up some connector issues I have not resolved so I'm seeking information from others' experiences.]

Is the ePMP speed and reliability (that I've read about) enough to justify switching to ePMP? Are the UBNT problems really enough to justify leaving their product line? If I switch to ePMP for my 2nd site, should I also change my 1st site while there is only 1 customer connected? These are all questions my wife does not enjoy hearing.

Thanks - Chris
wirelessdog
join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD

wirelessdog

Member

If you are looking to use single antennas read omni on a tower with 10 customers or less per tower stay with Ubiquiti. If you are looking for radios that don't have DFS approval issues (read nanobeam FLOP), can run 50-60 customers per sector, have gige ports and most notably GPS sync with frequency reuse than Cambium is a no-brainer.

viperm
Carpe Diem
Premium Member
join:2002-07-09
Winchester, CA

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What he said! I have two towers set up UBNT and I am making he switch already and have put up new sectors and putting new people on ePmp no looking back. two new tower sites coming online in the next couple months and its all ePmp.

Performance is the same if not better, GPS sync and the though of being able to put more then 30-40 customers on an AP is a no brainer.
uberdome
join:2013-10-23
MA

uberdome

Member

I am working in an area with a low population density. I do not intend to place omnis everywhere, but I don't want to unnecessarily install hardware. I'm starting in the most dense areas (Site 1 can see ~40 buildings, and Site 2 can see ~150 buildings). This area is already served by DSL. If I assume an [optimistic] 25% subscription rate, that only leaves 10 customers at Site 1 and 40 customers at Site 2.

I will end up with many sites that only serve 10-20 people. I don't currently plan to need GPS sync and would use flexible frame mode if I used ePMP.

I like the idea of faster speeds speeds from ePMP in the short term and the possibility of GPS sync in the long run (moving to wider channels with re-use). On the other hand, I also like the idea of a transition from UBNT to UBNT AC hardware.
wirelessdog
join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD

wirelessdog

Member

Ubiquiti AC has been a flop so far from what I have seen.
OHSrob
join:2011-06-08

OHSrob

Member

said by wirelessdog:

Ubiquiti AC has been a flop so far from what I have seen.

I disagree with that statement. However the nanobeam sure was.

They may have launched it 3-6 months too early. Since they started having it ignore the Ethernet pause frames its been ready for PTP use if your in a situation where you can get away without having the DFS bands.

My testing on the latest firmware release I did last week shows its PTMP performance is very impressive.

Like what WTM said in the other thread if you use Ubiquiti your Beta Testing like it or not.

Sometimes they give us more channels with an update. Sometimes they take them all away and force us to scale down our deployments at the expense of our customers internet performance.

I wouldn't call it a flop as much as a victim of the publicly traded ubiquiti's business model.

It appears they need to wow investors and not appear stagnant they do this by keeping a continuous line of products flowing out. So the people giving them the money and not using the products keep giving them more money to repeat this cycle rather then waiting till something is truly ready like most other company's.

Its kinda sad that they try to steal the look and feel of how apple with their colors, product conferences, emails, ect. Then they do the exact opposite of what apple does and show off a unfinished product that you can't buy for months and that when you can buy it won't be ready to work in the way its intended for at least another 6 months to a year.

This is why I will only presently buy a pair of each new AC device until I am 100% sure it is ready for a production link.

I got into ubiquiti's AC gear not expecting them to be ready to March based upon past experiences.

I will never make another impulsive mistake like I made with the nanobeam and order them in bulk because the release tab seemed like a nice idea without testing the crap out of them first.
wirelessdog
join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD

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I still have two rocket m5 ac's on the shelf. Once I have word from the masses that they are stable I will think about putting them into production. Not without DFS however. I reserve the non-DFS bands for my older equipment read Alvarion and Canopy and keep those bands clean as possible.
wtm
join:2011-04-23
Tempe, AZ

wtm

Member

What has been biggest flop has been the Rocket TI...... We have been hoping for a product to replace our regular Rockets with a 1 gig port device, and so far the AC line is the only one that I would have some sort of confidence in! Unfortunately, UBNT does not have the UNII-1 certs, so we can't use it. Looking heavily on the Mimosa B5c units to connect to the Rocket dishes ? But at their cost, can't afford to buy, just to test them out!
OHSrob
join:2011-06-08

2 edits

OHSrob

Member

said by wtm:

What has been biggest flop has been the Rocket TI...... We have been hoping for a product to replace our regular Rockets with a 1 gig port device, and so far the AC line is the only one that I would have some sort of confidence in! Unfortunately, UBNT does not have the UNII-1 certs, so we can't use it. Looking heavily on the Mimosa B5c units to connect to the Rocket dishes ? But at their cost, can't afford to buy, just to test them out!

I only ever bought one of those. The day I went to go put it up, people started to post about how they are all dying. Mines still sitting in that towers shelter attached to a Sector. Unless someone posts that they are fixed and did it with firmware I won't ever be deploying it.

That said the case on it is really nice its only missing feature is a grounding lug for a 6AWG wire. The case alone justify's the increased price, The gigabit port is just icing on the cake.

edit: The bullet titanium has been amazing. The M5 doesn't have DFS but the M2 version addressed the only problem with the old model (Its crappy case/LEDs leaking) Our of the 50 or so I have deployed Bullet M2 Titanium has zero failure rates. Its been a very solid product and was very welcomed to replace the Bullet M2. The increased cost is nothing for the peace of mind you get that it will never leak where the LED's are.

edit: The Glue holding the plastic where the LED's are was the Airmax M series biggest failing and by far the biggest reasons for equipment failures I have experienced.

I like how they do it on the Rocket AC lite and have it shine through thicker plastic now. Its not just a little slit of plastic they glue over a hole with cheep glue.
aeronet
join:2002-04-05
San Juan, PR

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You can always start with epmp on the low cost by going with omnis and a STA acting as AP (you loose GPS sync)... you can later change the AP to GPS Sync when Cashflow allows
TheHox
join:2012-05-31

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I have not used any ePMP so I can't speak for that. I do have a pair I want to try sometime.

But, I have a small wisp I started about a year ago, almost to 200 customers, all UBNT gear. I have 9 towers, many "mini pops" very close to each other and everything is working well.
I just replaced my RocketM5 link that was at 30mhz capping out to a RocketAC link, I am getting more performance using 20mhz now, I can go up to 30mhz if needed as well.

I'd say stick with what works for now, if it don't work or gives you problems then you can look elsewhere.
I do really hope they get DFS on the NanoBeams, that is screwing things up for me.
raytaylor
join:2009-07-28

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My rule is epmp works for urban, or rural where distance to the customer is less than 4kms. Ubiquiti in a typical rural setting.

PROS:

Ubiquiti
- Better mechanical design, easy to assemble
- Multiple dish sizes without needing reflectors
- 25dbi radio is 33% less than epmp equivalant

Epmp
- Better than airmax
- more clients per sector (irrelevant for rural)
- Small loco equivalant is the same price as ubnt

CONS:
Ubiquiti
- Performance CCQ goes down with 15+ distant clients on a sector

Epmp
- Difficult mechanical design for 22dbi model using a reflector, and 25dbi model using a connectorised dish. 25dbi model does come as a discounted combo pack but still not at he same price as a nanobeam.
- Difficult web interface, very web2.0 though you can get used to it.
raytaylor

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Have a read of this
»Went to ePMP basic training today
uberdome
join:2013-10-23
MA

uberdome

Member

So, I haven't seen enough information to help justify the additional cost of ePMP hardware at my small sites (even using non-sync APs). It seems the UBNT hardware is "good enough" for everything I currently plan to do.

I think for now, I'll move forward with my original plan to use UBNT radios. I really want the ability to run below 5725 MHz, but UNII-3 is clean enough.

I'll still plan to do some back to back ePMP 1000 Integrated 2.4GHz vs NanoStation M2 comparisons once I get the ePMP working again (The cable slot is not cut large enough for Tough Cable Carrier, so I ended up pulling too hard on the cable during installation. The radio still receives power, but it cannot connect to my test router.).

Thanks - Chris