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Inssomniak
The Glitch
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join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON

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Re: Mimosa B5c

Why does it seem like just months ago there was nothing affordable+fast to haul data back and now there is several?
SBBVince
Premium Member
join:2009-07-22
Simpsonville, KY

SBBVince

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They have been in the works for a few years. R&D is time consuming. 802.11ac was approved in January 2014, and products had to be developed based on the standard I imagine. I am sure developments were made using the draft. But from official standard release to market in about a year, that's not too bad.

bito
Premium Member
join:2001-10-08
Monroe, NC

1 recommendation

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said by SBBVince:

Another thing I thought about in talking with my boss about it last night, and we are not 100% sure, but we think that the Mimosa gear is subject to the new 5Ghz rules. If that is the case, then using larger antennas may not be really reasonable as power would have to be turned down to meet the EIRP requirements.

Have any of you heard of this?

There are a lot of potential rule changes coming up. But for current deployments, as long as it's legal now, it will most likely be grandfathered in. Roll with what you have.

Semaphore
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join:2003-11-18
101010

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said by wtm:

Well how about giving us some info on the LTE stuff? What speeds are you getting, what does it cost? Give it up??? We want to know !!!

As far as I know anyone buying from Telrad is under NDA for the pricing - they do that for a couple of reasons to be sure - but it prevents us from openly sharing our exact costs.

I don't think I'm directly violating it though to tell you that this is WAY more money than you ever thought of spending on an "Access Point".... think more like what some of us would budget for a 70' Tower (standing) + 3xAP's + 3xSectors a backhaul and UPS all rolled into one.... and then add on a little bit and you have the price of one eNodeB. And you probably want 3 eNodeB's to cover 360 degrees around a tower effectively.

S

Shaman
join:2014-12-16
Kingston, ON

Shaman

Member

It's not cheap, that's for sure. I'm under the same NDA. However, what's teh cost of letting your competition do it while you watch your customers move to them? Higher.
SBBVince
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join:2009-07-22
Simpsonville, KY

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I know the base station cost is not as much as I would expect per unit. Honestly, going from most commonly used WISP technology to LTE is literally a jump from amateur hour to playing with the big boys (as it has been explained to me).

The cost per BS isn't really that bad when you consider you shouldn't have to take the damn thing down. The biggest benefit of using SDRs is that you can upgrade your gear without having to upgrade your hardware as often.

I could be mistaken about the last part.

If you went to WISPAmerica 2015, at the end, Patrick told everyone the MSRP for the base station.
wirelessdog
join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD

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Patrick posted this on AFMUG:

Subject: about $12k

One BTS, included embedded EPC with MAC level authentication (cheapest option) supporting up to 50 clients. Antenna could be swapped for any other. NOTE: this exclude any NMS pieces, but you could just connect over Telnet or direct connect. This would be the BAREST of bones, but there it is. That's still LTE and about 100 Mbps with killer NLOS.

Includes:

735270
CMP.XT-BS-3.4-3.7
1
715773
LTE COMPACT SW License
1
700258
BMAX-4M-GPS
1
300736
ANT 3.3-3.8GHz,18 dBi, 65deg, 4ports
(RF cables NOT included)
1
715620
BreezeWay-1010-50
(per Compact HW license)
1
715621
BreezeWay-1010-iHSS-50
(50 subs. license)
1
SLA
1 Year SLA
1

wirelessdog

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I'm cutting a check for the first starter kit on Monday. The $12k is a little conservative. Figure a few grand more at least for the first sector.
SBBVince
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join:2009-07-22
Simpsonville, KY

SBBVince

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So if you bought a brand new PMP 100 AP back in the day, you paid quite a bit of money. Retail they are still quite a bit.

I am not a numbers guy, but the technology involved and the quality of the gear, it seems like it ia certainly worth the price (if it works as described).
wirelessdog
join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD

wirelessdog

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I agree. I am only planning to use it in specific areas that I can reach 50+ customers on one sector, customers pay either $110 for 10mbps or $200 for 25mbps. From there I can justify the investment to myself and to the bank.
SBBVince
Premium Member
join:2009-07-22
Simpsonville, KY

SBBVince

Premium Member

There is one major tower I would like tower I would like to see it on. We have somewhere near 300 subs on that tower. Most are 2.4Ghz or 3.65Ghz WiMAX customers. Sadly, some of the units are connectorized (manually, I drilled holes and put pigtails in) and some are not. What I would hope is the LTE would remove the need for them being connectorized.

Then I have a few in another county that have 100+ subscribers that I woould like to see it go on. Alas, I don't make thise decisions.
drb7
Premium Member
join:2011-12-05
usa

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said by SBBVince:

Another thing I thought about in talking with my boss about it last night, and we are not 100% sure, but we think that the Mimosa gear is subject to the new 5Ghz rules. If that is the case, then using larger antennas may not be really reasonable as power would have to be turned down to meet the EIRP requirements.

Have any of you heard of this?

The Mimosas are subject to the new 5 GHz rules. You are limited to 40 dbi EIRP in the USA (and obviously 30 dbi EIRP in DFS). Actually, I think you would want to consider using larger dishes to improve the gain on the receive side. The new 5 Ghz OOBE limits make it difficult for longer links.
wirelessdog
join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD

wirelessdog

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EIRP is measured in dBm not dBi
SBBVince
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join:2009-07-22
Simpsonville, KY

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All of our links are really short. We don't do long links for a few reasons, one of them being we don't want to put anything larger than 2' on a tower unless we absolutley havd to. We also calculate our link budgets before we buy our gear. If I feel, as the primary tower hand, the link won't work, I will test it with another manufacturer to get an idea of what I should expect.

But I see where my logic in my statement was incorrect. Thank you for pointing that ou.
lutful
... of ideas
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join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON

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said by drb7:

The new 5 Ghz OOBE limits make it difficult for longer links.

I came up with a solution 11 years ago. Let me formally put it in the public domain, if I had not done that already in some other thread. Smaller dish for TX, much larger dish for RX, assuming custom radio hardware to separate TX from RX.

You can also do it using a single dish with circular polarity RX feed, and a helix antenna pointed outward for the TX. I have a drawing somewhere, but you can picture it for sure. Finally you can do it inside a panel using array of patch elements, just assign fewer patches for TX, and more patches for RX.

Mimosa and any WISP vendor can now use this approach, but don't dare to file a patent. Prior art will bite you.
SBBVince
Premium Member
join:2009-07-22
Simpsonville, KY

SBBVince

Premium Member

Isn't this basically the concept on the Ubiquiti AF24. Because the 24Ghz wavele gth is so small, they were able to put it all in one massive unit. The AF5 also does something similar but I believe the antennas are the same gain.

I could be mistaken.
lutful
... of ideas
Premium Member
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON

lutful

Premium Member

said by SBBVince:

Isn't this basically the concept on the Ubiquiti AF24.

I don't follow their products. They are probably using two dual-polarity dishes like other vendors, just attached to each other.

However, quite a few people contacted me when that system came out, because I had discussed "figure of 8" dual dish configuration since 2004. I originally developed that concept for providing good RX diversity for a remote Canadian link across 90km of ocean. Later I adapted it for very long range 2x2 MIMO.

Both Hal (dongato) and I discussed using different frequency for TX and RX using such configuration.
SBBVince
Premium Member
join:2009-07-22
Simpsonville, KY

SBBVince

Premium Member

I know the idea has been around for a while. I have only been in the game since 2007. I won't say Ubiquit was the originator of the idea as I had heard about it long before AF24 came out. I want to say the Motorla guys that went to Ubiquiti were the ones that spoke at the product release. The recieve dish is larger than the transmit dish in the exact figure 8 you speak of. I do not know if that is the case with the AF5. Being that both dishez are the same size, I would say not.

The Mimosa link is not the same, to my knowledge, as the connectorized unit can a standard dish. I am going to assume the integrated one is the same. Their magic sauce comes from 4x4 MIMO and sync. With three links on one tower in the same 25' span they all perform well.
lutful
... of ideas
Premium Member
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON

lutful

Premium Member

said by SBBVince:

I want to say the Motorla guys that went to Ubiquiti were the ones that spoke at the product release ...

I recall someone posting that original Canopy TDMA system, which had no FPGA, was developed by a team in Toronto. Maybe there was an engineer named Schulz who managed it.

My company Radialink started FPGA-TDMA project in 2003. Motorola Canopy added FPGA after some time, but throughput was still a fraction of what our system would have achieved. But every investor pointed to Canopy, and said how can you challenge Motorola, etc.

Ubiquiti started right in front of us in this forum. I had very early SR2/SR5 cards because my company was designing a high power multi-card system using those radios. I even talked to Robert Pera about getting schematic for FCC/IC approval of the whole system. »Re: Routerboard 532 with SuperRange 5 combo

Anyway I wish both Mimosa and Ubiquiti will make WISPs happy. Of course Mikrotik and all other affordable vendors. It is always good to have alternatives and options.
SBBVince
Premium Member
join:2009-07-22
Simpsonville, KY

SBBVince

Premium Member

I am sorry to hear it didn't work out for you. It seems like Motorola and now Cambium are not nearly as flexible as other companies in the arena. I have to say, after talking with the Mimosa guys and using their product, I hope to see them give the WISP industry something fresh in terms of high capacity BHs. I like Motorola backhauls, and we have a few, but they just are not cost effective to deploy.

I hope to see you keep coming up with ideas. The WISP industry is in need of more unique ones from what I can see. MikroTik and Ubiquiti are doing well in disrupting the market. But I am always welcome to new ideas. This industry is kind of dependent on it.
biland
join:2012-01-29

biland

Member

can anybody tell me if somebody tested the mimosa on 100 km plus links?
we run microtik at 120km and we get abouth 100 Mb tcp speed, but we need to triple that, udp speed we get 400Mb, but we need real world tcp speed, so how would the B5c work out for us ?
SBBVince
Premium Member
join:2009-07-22
Simpsonville, KY

2 edits

SBBVince

Premium Member

If you live in the US, it appears it will not work with a B5c. I used the Mimosa Link Calculator to get my answer.

In the US, with the FCC OOBE limit applied, it would barely cover it.

Here are the settings I used:

B5c - 35dBi antenna (3ft dish), 5dBm power, 2x20MHz channel bw, 118km: 104Mbps, PHY 130Mbps
Note that with 2/40MHz channel bw you double that, if you have that kind of channel size
available. At 123km with the same setup you have 156Mbps, PHY 195Mbps

If you are not in the US, you would have to find out what the EIRP in your country is and use the link calculator to determine what you link is going to look like.

EDIT: I would like to point out that Mimosa's link calculated limits you to 40dBm EIRP. This is not the case across the 5Ghz band.

See this AF5X useful info post on UBNT's forum for clarification.

Using 60dBM for 5.8Ghz with a 35dBi dish in a 2x20MHz channel will give you: 320Mbps, PHY:390Mbps.

It all depends on the frequency you plan to use.
jimbouse
join:2011-10-01
Bryan, TX

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I would consider bonding multiple AirFiber 5X radios with 34db dishes.
»community.ubnt.com/t5/ai ··· /1258362