dslreports logo
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc
Search similar:


uniqs
12279
LastDon
join:2002-08-13

LastDon to DKS

Member

to DKS

Re: Netflix Cracks Down On VPN & Proxy Pirates.

said by DKS:

said by Laidback:

Take it another step. I get CBS, FOX, ABC and NBC along with AMC on cable. I pay my cable company for this service. I miss a show. I cannot log into any of their sites to watch said show. Why? I pay for the service yet I am denied online access?

You don't have that right because you have not paid for that right and that service. You have paid for the right to watch programs on cable or satellite. Additional fees are to be negotiated and paid to the copyright owners if on line download rights are included. Your provider did not negotiate those rights and you haven't paid for them so you don't get them. Simple, eh?

I have paid the right to watch that episode sure, I haven't paid them to bomb my tv with useless commercials, so why is it they are double dipping.. getting money from me, and getting money from advertisers.

In the USA, if they missed a show, they can log on to the companies site and watch those for free doesn't matter what provider you are from. though some providers like espn make you sign in with your cable provider id

here though, if the programming is provided by bell, and you are a rogers customer they stone wall you

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone to DKS

Premium Member

to DKS
said by DKS:

Not if you are accessing a non-Canadian version of Netflix. Canadian users connecting with US Netflix are not covered under the rights agreement. This is simply an effort to enforce the rights of the property owners.

How is this any different than pulling in American television channels with an antenna or - in my case - wrapping a piece of tinfoil around the F connector on the back of my TV?

TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium Member
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON

1 recommendation

TwiztedZero to elwoodblues

Premium Member

to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:

I work for a Rent A car company, and now big music has decided that the cars they rent, and have radios (which car doesn't?) is considered public space and they want the Rental companies to buy a "pubic broadcast license".

It's the same BS when it comes to your Blu Ray or DVD viewing, more then a few people, it's considered a public viewing and not allowed (not that they can enforce it).

Creative Extortion.

clandestin
join:2002-05-02
Montreal, QC

clandestin to elwoodblues

Member

to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:

You want to talk about greedy?

I work for a Rent A car company, and now big music has decided that the cars they rent, and have radios (which car doesn't?) is considered public space and they want the Rental companies to buy a "pubic broadcast license".

pubic broadcast licence... Nice typo
mr weather
Premium Member
join:2002-02-27
Mississauga, ON

mr weather to Gone

Premium Member

to Gone
said by Gone:

How is this any different than pulling in American television channels with an antenna or - in my case - wrapping a piece of tinfoil around the F connector on the back of my TV?

I think in the case of broadcast tv it is different because there is no authentication/subscription system in place to control the distribution of the content. Cable, satellite, etc. requires this.

Having said that, for many years CBET in Windsor would black out American programs - even though CBC stations in London or Toronto would carry them - due to broadcast rights being owned by Detroit stations.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

1 edit

Gone

Premium Member

Windsor is the only city in Canada where broadcast rights and rating data is shared with an American city - that being, Detroit-Windsor is a single binational designated marketing area - so that might have something to do with it.
69230940 (banned)
join:2014-12-10

69230940 (banned) to DKS

Member

to DKS
said by DKS:

said by HeadSpinning:

The content providers should simply start licensing based on total subscriber base of the service, not based on geography of distribution.

Nope. Because all rights for distribution globally are based on geographic markets, archaic thinking, and greed

Fixed that for you.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to elwoodblues

Premium Member

to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:

You want to talk about greedy?

I work for a Rent A car company, and now big music has decided that the cars they rent, and have radios (which car doesn't?) is considered public space and they want the Rental companies to buy a "pubic broadcast license".

Next time your company will tell Ford et. al. to leave out the radio and connected nav/etc... systems because Harpz Rent-a-Car isn't paying the Mafia their extortion fee.

Ford will balk because that means a lot of re-engineering to decouple things Harpz tells Ford that they aren't buying any more cars from Ford.

Ford becomes Harpz's friend in the battle against the Mafia in order to protect the sale of 500,000 vehicles/year to Harpz, Awus, etc....

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere to DKS

Premium Member

to DKS
said by DKS:

said by Davesnothere:

 
In short, again, as with so many other insane situations, the underlying reason is Corporate Greed and Politics ! (aka Follow the Money)

Is it a wonder that so many folks take matters into their own hands, inventing, or finding and subscribing to workarounds ?!

So it is wrong to request payment for something you have created and hold the intellectual property rights for. OK.

 
You are twisting my words, and you of ALL people should know what THAT feels like.

I was simply trying to summarize the words/feelings of others who have posted, who are frustrated at the current way that NetFlix does things.

A NetFlix subscriber should not have to pay twice (as in for 2 subscriptions) just because they happen to travel, and that is the feeling which I get from what I have been reading.

However, I will concede that a NetFlix subscription doesn't COST a whole lot.
Davesnothere

Davesnothere to camelot

Premium Member

to camelot
said by camelot:

said by DKS:

So it is wrong to request payment for something you have created....

 
Nothing wrong with requesting payment.

The problem is the copyright holders have not figured out that the internet is global, and they must adjust their licensing practices as such.

Country borders on the internet are no longer respected. For the first time, consumers have more power than ever. As a producer, you must adjust or you will lose. I'm not saying piracy is right, however the internet shifted because of pirating. If you offer access to decent content, at a decent price you remove the incentive to pirate. You won't stop it completely - but you can recoup some cost.

The world has changed; so too must the movie studios.

Don't kid yourself, DKS. They're in it for themselves - and no one else - including actors.

 
OK, you summarized it better than I did.
Davesnothere

1 edit

Davesnothere to BigSensFan

Premium Member

to BigSensFan
said by BigSensFan:

said by maartena:

....but if I fool Netflix to think that I am Canadian, it comes right up....

 
You may be able to fool Netflix.. but we know you are not Canadian.

You never say EH!, you dont say Chesterfield and you probably say Poutine wrong

 
Oh, and also, it's "case IN point" - but that's not a Canadian thing.

More importantly, your lengthy post was well reasoned and made good sense, to ME, anyway.

TOPDAWG
Premium Member
join:2005-04-27
Calgary, AB

TOPDAWG to TwiztedZero

Premium Member

to TwiztedZero
»www.bbc.co.uk/news/techn ··· 30726631
quote:
The company denied reports it had stepped up its attempts to block access via virtual private networks (VPNs).

Netflix said its existing policy against the use of VPNs to circumvent geographical content barriers remained unchanged.

But it said its service would still work via some VPNs.

"The claims that we have changed our policy on VPN are false," said Netflix's chief product officer Neil Hunt.
I think Netflix should just keep their mouth closed on this issue. It will not be long before the media owners get pissed as it seems netflix does not care to do anything about VPN and DNS serves being used to watch whatever version of netflix you want.
zod5000
join:2003-10-21
Victoria, BC

zod5000

Member

said by TOPDAWG:

I think Netflix should just keep their mouth closed on this issue. It will not be long before the media owners get pissed as it seems netflix does not care to do anything about VPN and DNS serves being used to watch whatever version of netflix you want.

I would agree. Most people are blaming Netflix when I'm guessing that Netflix doesn't give a crap. Allowing people to circumvent geoblocking probably results in more subscriptions and more revenue for them.

The problem is that other people are selling and buying the rights to air that content in other countries. If Netflix flaunts or hints that they aren't enforcing licensing, that creates pressure from the people who own the streaming rights. There's lots of money made from selling rights to other countries (rather than globally). The people buying those rights will be pissed if people are getting it through netflix (without paying them for it). They would most likely stop buying those rights if people weren't buying it through them. Then the content owners would get pissed because they make less revenue because they can't sell the rights to other countries because everyone accesses it via Netflix.

BACONATOR26
Premium Member
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON

BACONATOR26 to TwiztedZero

Premium Member

to TwiztedZero
Why Netflix won't block VPN users – it has too many of them
»www.theguardian.com/tech ··· pn-users
Nonetheless, he says that the figures show that Netflix would be “be shooting themselves in the foot if you blocked considerable levels of traffic coming from outside your official countries … the fact that it’s already talking to them and getting money from them is a good thing.”

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

Guspaz to TwiztedZero

MVM

to TwiztedZero
For a TL;DR: Netflix has ~30 million customers in countries that Netflix doesn't operate in, blocking VPNs effectively would cut off a huge amount of Netflix' revenue.

Blocking VPNs (or at least out-of-territory use) is easy. There are a few things that Netflix could do. Blocking users from accessing Netflix from outside the country their credit card billing address is in would block the vast majority of it, for example. But it would also be highly restrictive (travelling would suck, with no Netflix access), and they'd lose a huge amount of revenue.
Laidback
join:2001-09-30
Cochrane, ON

Laidback

Member

said by Guspaz:

For a TL;DR: Netflix has ~30 million customers in countries that Netflix doesn't operate in, blocking VPNs effectively would cut off a huge amount of Netflix' revenue.

Blocking VPNs (or at least out-of-territory use) is easy. There are a few things that Netflix could do. Blocking users from accessing Netflix from outside the country their credit card billing address is in would block the vast majority of it, for example. But it would also be highly restrictive (travelling would suck, with no Netflix access), and they'd lose a huge amount of revenue.

when i travel to the US, if I decide to watch Netflix, I get this nice little flag along the lines of "we see you are travelling" please enjoy some of the additional program. Something along that line anyway. Next time I am stateside, I will copy it down so I have it straight. Netflix does not cut you off as long as you are in a country that they offer service in.

TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium Member
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON

TwiztedZero

Premium Member

said by Laidback:

Next time I am stateside, I will copy it down so I have it straight.

Screen shots speak louder and its easy to learn how to do them.

maartena
Elmo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA

maartena to Gone

Premium Member

to Gone
said by Gone:

said by DKS:

Not if you are accessing a non-Canadian version of Netflix. Canadian users connecting with US Netflix are not covered under the rights agreement. This is simply an effort to enforce the rights of the property owners.

How is this any different than pulling in American television channels with an antenna or - in my case - wrapping a piece of tinfoil around the F connector on the back of my TV?

The American television stations you can pull in using an antenna, are provided free of charge to anyone that can receive them. No one in the United States has to pay for those stations.... UNLESS they pay for them using a subscription television provider on cable or satellite.

There is no money involved and no purchasing/buying of broadcast and/or redistribution rights to media.

When you have a Netflix account however, the company that provides you these services has to pay rights to access the content it provides per country. So Netflix has to pay Universal Canada so to speak to gain access to the Universal catalog of movies that have actually been released in Canada, and so forth, and so forth.

I am an American. I use a SmartDNS to access both Canadian, UK, and Dutch Netflix because in quite a few cases the US version doesn't have certain movies available for streaming, but only available for DVD-by-mail. (2 examples, those with VPN/SmartDNS can check: Good Morning Vietnam and The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy are both available for streaming in Canada, but NOT in the USA.)

So when I encounter those issues, I switch from USA to Canada. If that doesn't work, I switch to UK. If that doesn't have it either, I am probably out of luck. I use the Dutch Netflix as well because Dutch happens to be my native language, and second they don't over-dub movies with their own voices like in Germany and France, so there is a slight chance a movie is still available for streaming that way.

Is this cheating the system? Some say it is.... but the reality is that there are no laws around geo-restrictions on the internet. If you are a distributor LIKE Netflix, you have to put in these restrictions because the content-suppliers want them to, NOT because it is required by law of any kind.

One can not be arrested for using a SmartDNS to access content in other countries, to put it that way. Especially not when you have paid for said content.

(Another example: BBC and ITV do have to keep their excellent streaming portals locked up for people outside of the UK, but Portugal and Spain are pretty much the "Florida of the UK" so to speak in the sense that many English people retire there, and have flourishing communities. Over 1 Million Brittons live in those 2 countries alone. Many of those pay for their TV license using their UK based retirement accounts, and as such are legally allowed to use any/all services BBC and ITV offers, but they would have to use a SmartDNS to access them from Spain and Portugal.)

In short:

Is it legal to do? - Yes.
Does Netflix care? - No.
Do the content owners care? - Hell Yes.

The media companies drive these kinds of actions, not any laws, and not Netflix. Netflix can't be bothered to keep on checking on what IP addresses access stuff where, so they hire a 3d party company for as little money as possible, and they make the media companies pay for it if they want it done. They aren't going to kill your account until the media companies demand that too.

jmck
formerly 'shaded'
join:2010-10-02
Ottawa, ON

jmck

Member

does Netflix care if they have to pay higher rates for content or even denied content? yes. that being said, I think they're doing just as much as anyone else are and enough for studios not to really care yet.

makes you wonder how this entire story came out and who fed it to the media. it's really a non-story.

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS to camelot

to camelot
said by camelot:

said by DKS:

So it is wrong to request payment for something you have created

Nothing wrong with requesting payment. The problem is the copyright holders have not figured out that the internet is global, and they must adjust their licensing practices as such.

Why? Broadcasting regulations, distribution regulations and corporate structures follow governance, which is based on geographical boundaries. Just because YOU say it's global doesn't mean it is. You are right. It's about money. And control of rights. Thems who has the money controls the rights. And thems that write the laws set the rights. And that's not the internet. The internet, for all it claims to be, can't bypass creative rights.
DKS

DKS to Gone

to Gone
said by Gone:

said by DKS:

Not if you are accessing a non-Canadian version of Netflix. Canadian users connecting with US Netflix are not covered under the rights agreement. This is simply an effort to enforce the rights of the property owners.

How is this any different than pulling in American television channels with an antenna or - in my case - wrapping a piece of tinfoil around the F connector on the back of my TV?

The spillover is minor. You can get all kinds of US signals. I can get exactly three TV channels. Border privilege.
DKS

DKS to Davesnothere

to Davesnothere
said by Davesnothere:

said by DKS:

said by Davesnothere:

 
In short, again, as with so many other insane situations, the underlying reason is Corporate Greed and Politics ! (aka Follow the Money)

Is it a wonder that so many folks take matters into their own hands, inventing, or finding and subscribing to workarounds ?!

So it is wrong to request payment for something you have created and hold the intellectual property rights for. OK.

 
You are twisting my words, and you of ALL people should know what THAT feels like.

I was simply trying to summarize the words/feelings of others who have posted, who are frustrated at the current way that NetFlix does things.

A NetFlix subscriber should not have to pay twice (as in for 2 subscriptions) just because they happen to travel, and that is the feeling which I get from what I have been reading.

However, I will concede that a NetFlix subscription doesn't COST a whole lot.

Of the total subscriber base, how many actually travel? Less than you think.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone to DKS

Premium Member

to DKS
said by DKS:

The spillover is minor. You can get all kinds of US signals. I can get exactly three TV channels. Border privilege.

Millions of Canadians can get American TV off the air, including in our largest city. That's hardly "minor"

El Quintron
Cancel Culture Ambassador
Premium Member
join:2008-04-28
Tronna

El Quintron

Premium Member

said by Gone:

Millions of Canadians can get American TV off the air, including in our largest city. That's hardly "minor"

Agreed everyone within 100 miles of the border probably able to get most if not all US networks, and that includes a huge swath of the Canadian populace.

In that sense is more about appearances than it is about effectiveness. They should just get over it, and dump exclusive licensing.

EQ
AJ102
join:2005-03-22
Vancouver, BC

2 recommendations

AJ102 to jmck

Member

to jmck
said by jmck:

makes you wonder how this entire story came out and who fed it to the media. it's really a non-story.

Hint: take a look at the ownership of the newspapers that keep promoting the story with sensational headlines. Those stories should really have a disclosure statement at the bottom noting their conflict of interest.

BigSensFan
Premium Member
join:2003-07-16
Belle River, ON

BigSensFan

Premium Member

I get around around 10-12 US channels in HD with Rabbit ears (depends which way I point them)
camelot
join:2008-04-12
Whitby, ON

camelot to DKS

Member

to DKS

DKS See Profile The internet, for all it claims to be, can't bypass creative rights.

You sure? It already has- many times over. It's Politicians and old corporate mentality that seeks to keep the boundaries alive.

If you want an example of the absolute ineptitude of government, look at PM Cameron's wish to "ban encrypted communications". It's the hackers and pirates that drive innovation- then corporate tries to play "catch up" in which they fail miserably.

Copyright holders need to move into the current century of thinking, if they wish to remain relevant, and profitable. Don't kid yourself, even with the pirating, they're still making money hand over fist. The loss of revenue due to pirating excuse is a fallacy.

Here's another example- traditional brick and mortar stores are closing up everywhere around you. Why? Because of the Internet. People can get things cheaper and easier on the internet.

If the Studios actually thought progressively instead of wasting their time with frivolous "cease and desist, please" letters, and worked with a single platform (i.e. Netflix), they'd find their pirate-chasing activities would be greatly reduced.


maartena
Elmo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA

maartena to Gone

Premium Member

to Gone
said by Gone:

said by DKS:

The spillover is minor. You can get all kinds of US signals. I can get exactly three TV channels. Border privilege.

Millions of Canadians can get American TV off the air, including in our largest city. That's hardly "minor"

Millions of Americans can receive Canadian TV at the same time. The North-west of the USA thanks you for the 2010 Olympics broadcasts from Vancouver. (NBC only broadcasted it with a 3 hour delay).

The difference is that you do not pay for terrestrial television, whereas Netflix is a commercial entity to which you fork over hard earned dollars each month. Different rules apply. Of course they could just put terrestrial TV behind a decoder, and solve the geographical issue that way by simply not selling the decoders in Canada, but that is going to be cumbersome and this is simply not how it was designed by law.

I do agree that geo-restrictive content licensing should go away, especially with borders so close as Canada and the USA. But the media companies will probably clutch on to that with their cold dead hands as long as they can.

Big media companies make the most of their money in Europe though, where with 30+ countries they make more money syndicating a TV show to 30+ television channels then they do in the US on it's first run. The popular sitcom "Friends" was so popular in Europe that it sold to pretty much every country and the producing company made more 75% of its money from selling it outside of the USA.

The problem, in general, is that just as there are no laws banning the use of tools to circumvent geo-restrictions on the internet, there are also no real international laws promoting international content licensing. Every country has their own laws regarding copyright and re-distribution, and in every country it is different.

So I don't think geo-restrictions are going away. But I don't think the tools to bypass them are going away either.

Lothario
join:2009-09-30
Ottawa, ON

Lothario to TwiztedZero

Member

to TwiztedZero
Another issue is while providing a service to canadians, they do not charge taxes for the service, technically they dont have a footprint here so it would be hard for CRA to go after them.
AJ102
join:2005-03-22
Vancouver, BC

AJ102 to TwiztedZero

Member

to TwiztedZero
Well, this is interesting: »www.itbusiness.ca/news/n ··· ce/53321

A few days ago Netflix sent a cease-and-desist letter to at least one DNS company which apparently takes the position that they are illegally promoting circumvention of a copyright protection measure. That would be an interpretation of the law at odds with everyone else. Netflix confirmed the letter, but has no other comment.

They apparently sent the letter to the Canadian owners of the DNS company (Turboflix) even though the company is based in Barbados.