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jackal
join:2004-01-06
Ozark, MO

1 recommendation

jackal

Member

[West] Congestion in evenings--where's the congestion? On the RT?

Click for full size
TCP thoroughput graph of 16mb FTP download
Around 5-6p until around midnight local time every day, it seems like my legacy DSL Elite connection (syncing at 6016/768 and with noise stats of Line Attenuation 25.0db down/12.0db up and Noise Margin 23.4db down/12.0db up) grinds to a near halt. During these times, I'm lucky if I can get 1.0-1.5mbps down (during weekday daytime, I have no problem getting a full ~5.2mbps down). Sometimes it's even worse and I can barely get 200kbps.

I've been in contact with AT&T's social media team and they've confirmed that there is congestion and there "is no way" to resolve it (translation: it's not worth the cost to upgrade it), but they "will be bringing" U-Verse out and that upgrade should resolve it.

My question for the experts here is (mostly for my own curiosity, I guess), where is the congestion likely occurring? Is it likely an issue with the backhaul from the RT to the CO? Do they have like an octal-bonded T1 and I'm sharing that 12mbps with my 50 neighbors who have AT&T DSL or something? Given the lack of population density out here, perhaps they never bothered to lay fiber out to the RT.

I'm in a semi-rural subdivision near a town of 20,000 and about 36,500 feet as the crow flies (and 10 road miles) to the closest CO, so of course I'm on an RT. There are probably 100-150 houses within 15,000 feet of the center of the subdivision (50 in the closest 5,000 feet to the center of the densest part of the area). There is no cable service out here, so AT&T is the only option for Internet short of satellite/cell (or maybe a WISP). Not sure what that means for the number of subscribers served by the RT.

FWIW, I've had a DSLR line monitor running (see »/testh ··· ?view=30 and search for my username). I also just followed the instructions at »SBC DSL FAQ »How to measure throughput speeds on individual packets? and came up with the attached graph, which appears to have a similar pattern for the one in that FAQ for #3 (the exhausted router slowdown)

And also, FWIW, it looks like the U-Verse they do offer in-town (closer to the CO) is the ADSL2 variety (Internet+voice only, no video offered, even half a block away from the CO). Not sure what that means for any potential U-Verse upgrades out here at the RT...any ideas?

Oh, yeah, one other question--if I have it on record that AT&T sees that their circuit is congested but they have no plans to resolve the issue, what is the likelihood of getting an account credit or something? Guessing nil, but I suppose it won't hurt to ask.

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
TP-Link TD-8616
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P

2 recommendations

NormanS

MVM

In the past, upgrading to deal with congestion was the way SBC handled it. But now, as AT&T, the desire is to move the customers to U-verse. I have no clue if they will issue credit for bad service.

Congestion is likely at the aggregation router; the first TCP/IP hop past your CPE. When I suffered congestion, about a decade ago, they switched me to a different aggregation router. I have no clue if they can, or will, do that now.
jackal
join:2004-01-06
Ozark, MO

jackal

Member

Thanks. If I do a traceroute when it's congested, I definitely see a high ping (100+ms) to the first hop after my home router, though I suppose it could be anywhere between me and that aggregation router, too.

Judging by the geographical suffix of that router, it's about 30 miles away in the county seat. Shouldn't that mean that everyone not only in my town but in the whole county is experiencing the same slow-down? And if that's the case and it's affecting tens of thousands of subscribers, I'd expect AT&T to try a little harder to upgrade the culprit...

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
TP-Link TD-8616
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P

1 recommendation

NormanS

MVM

It depends upon how many POP centers, and how many aggregation routers they contain. In the S.F. Bay Area, I know of three. In San Francisco, "sfnc21". In Santa Clara, "sntc01" (which I was on and became congested). In Pleasonton, "pltn13" (to which I was switched to fix the congestion). The numeric part implies multiple routers in each POP center.
bbear2
Premium Member
join:2003-10-06
dot.earth

bbear2 to jackal

Premium Member

to jackal
It seems strange that with the push to move people off of the legacy ADSL, that there is then congestion at the POP centers. Or does U-verse share those same centers?

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA

NormanS

MVM

I am not certain about sharing. I wonder if they just retire the legacy ADSL equipment as they move customers to U-verse?
jackal
join:2004-01-06
Ozark, MO

jackal to NormanS

Member

to NormanS
My aggregation router is ...dsl.snlo01.sbcglobal.net...so either I happen to be on the first router in the pool or there is only one aggregation router there, which would mean one aggregation router for the entire county.

County population is 270,000, FWIW.
jackal

jackal to NormanS

Member

to NormanS
If I can find a local wifi access point or something on U-Verse, it'll be interesting to do a traceroute and see if I pass through the same router.
jackal

jackal to NormanS

Member

to NormanS
Just got a call from the AT&T soc media team with one last update--he said that their internal goal last year was to move 2/3 of the 5 million people still on legacy ATM DSL over to U-Verse, and they supposedly succeeded in getting 3.5 million off of DSL and have about 1.5 million remaining.

Although he hadn't heard the goal yet, he said the talk has been to get that last 1.5 million off of DSL by the end of this quarter.

He said that in some of the more difficult cases, engineers are looking at alternative solutions such as setting up microcells in the some areas and putting everyone in that area on 4G LTE (no word on data caps, but it's possible they'd be treated more like wireline customers as far as pricing and data usage are concerned).

I'm sure taking this guy's statement with a big grain of salt, but if their goal is to get rid of legacy DSL in the early part of this year, then I'm a little more optimistic that something will happen sooner rather than later and that a resolution is in sight.
bbear2
Premium Member
join:2003-10-06
dot.earth

bbear2

Premium Member

I don't get the push for u-verse. Why is it so important for them to migrate everyone?
jackal
join:2004-01-06
Ozark, MO

3 recommendations

jackal

Member

AFAIK, ATM infrastructure is very expensive. A lot of the results I could find comparing ATM and TCP/IP are pretty dated, since ATM is an old protocol, but ATM-based equipment can cost an order of magnitude more than IP-based equipment. (One source published in 2000 said that an Ethernet NIC was $10 and a comparable ATM NIC was $700.)

Now that IP has much better QOS capabilities (DiffServ, etc.), the original advantages ATM had over IP and Ethernet are mitigated, so it makes sense to move expensive ATM circuits to cheaper Ethernet connections. It's already happening on a carrier level and enterprise WAN level, and DSL is one of the last remaining widespread ATM installations.

U-Verse (both the VDSL and ADSL2+ flavors) are all-IP. It's cheaper for AT&T to implement and maintain. From a user perspective, this also removes the fairly significant overhead tax (10%?) that ATM imposes on data transfer speeds, so even on a comparable plan, speeds are improved a bit and ping times should, too.

Of course, the installation of U-Verse allows AT&T to then offer triple-play packages, which have a very high margin for AT&T. IP-based telephony allows AT&T to remove POTS line cards (removing yet another cost area), and of course video is a very profitable service as well, especially if the equipment that can support it is already installed.

ArgMeMatey
join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI

4 recommendations

ArgMeMatey

Member

said by jackal:

AFAIK, ATM infrastructure is very expensive.

Seems to be true in general, but it's a sunk cost, and most of the supporting circuits are probably local. Therefore the operating costs may be journaled for accounting purposes but it's not cash out.

Trying to think like an MBA rather than an engineer, it seems likely they would want to take advantage of obsolescence as a convenient excuse to up-sell to a more profitable product with more bells and whistles. Plenty of rants around from ADSL customers who were forced to switch to VDSL or ADSL2. My point is that in an unregulated market, they can do what they want, for whatever reason they want, as long as they are not being fraudulent.

What have they done with all the ATM-based ADSL stuff that they have decommissioned over the past few years? Has the CO ATM equipment been abandoned in place? Are they using it all for spares to support the remaining ATM plant? Is there any difference in the personnel costs to maintain ATM vs. IP plant?

xsbell
join:2008-12-22
Canada

1 recommendation

xsbell to jackal

Member

to jackal
said by jackal:

My question for the experts here is (mostly for my own curiosity, I guess), where is the congestion likely occurring?

DSLAM feeder.. if it's a relatively small density shelf then it might have a DS3, but more than likely it's an OC-3.
jackal
join:2004-01-06
Ozark, MO

jackal

Member

Click for full size
An OC3? You sure? Given that I'm on an RT and the DSLAM is thus remote from the CO and (as I mentioned in my first post) likely only serving a max of ~150 houses (likely far fewer, and there's not a ton of population further out of town than I am, so I'm not "on the way" to anywhere else fiber would be run), I have a hard time believing they'd run an OC3 out here.

A DS3, maybe. But if that's the source of congestion, then I'd have to have 50 of my neighbors all maxing out their connections all evening every evening for me to see the ~1mbps I'm getting at these times. Seems rather unlikely, although maybe I have a lot of cord-cutting Netflix subscribers in my neighborhood...

I've seen enough references here on DSLR as well as on other sites to many RTs being fed with bonded T1s that I would be surprised to see this area served with anything more than a bonded T1.

In any case, it's frustratingly bad. I ran another Wireshark test on a download from a fairly close Akamai server (9 hops all on the AT&T network and--normally--70ms away). Over the course of a 30-minute, 200-MB download, you can see that my average is barely 1 Mbps. The pattern seems to still match the example #3 from the FAQ I linked to in my original post, so it does seem to be a router issue.

Oh well, I guess all I can do is wait and/or maybe get a quote from my local WISP...

Milwaukee PT to ArgMeMatey

Anon

to ArgMeMatey
Is there any difference in the personnel costs to maintain ATM vs. IP plant?

Past posts some equipment is used to maintain other locations, suspect new parts for older equipment is scarce, reuse what you can.....

Personal costs Uverse (first markets 2006) vs Legacy should be substantial.....
Uverse newer appendix union employees with lower max pay, no pension, lower benefit costs compared to legacy employees. This is same with auto industry in late 90s/earlier 2000s, aircraft manufactures, etc. Creating a two tier wage system for similar work.

To compete on a larger scale need to reduce costs, how many small business in a community go out of business when a super Walmart comes to town. Are the new employees paid same with similar benefits compared to those jobs displaced?

Posts on other sites, and past union negotiations reports from business section headlines seem to indicate Uverse maxed out senior techs earn about 60% compared to POTS/DSL lineman with fiber techs even higher... Craft jobs.
tylerw1285
join:2014-03-01
Independence, MO

tylerw1285

Member

I worked at Time Warner when I first turned 18. I worked there for 3 years and started at $12 and left at $16.80. 6 month installer, and 2 as a service tech. As soon as a i left for att I started I believe back then at $16 and went up $5 first 3 years along with around 5% performance h/r increase so yea can make $40 h/r. The maintenance guys are being fazed out. Like trying to teach you Grandfather to use a computer. Fiber techs make pretty good money as well and alot easier that's for sure. Only issue with the job is only about 2 of 10 employees make it to 1 year because they cannot grasp the total concept.
tylerw1285

tylerw1285

Member

And it would probably cost more in labor than to replace the fiber ring in the city and then branch off to neighborhoods/house. The shelves for the long distance are somewhat expensive but not terrible considering the issues with main lines from the 1970's made out of paper carrying uverse across them. The copper they get back would probably make a good chunk back as scrap. Right now mostly only new neighborhoods are getting fiber... and that is just from down the street that is not from the central office so another corner cut. Owell keeps me employed............. BTW benefits are pretty good.
jackal
join:2004-01-06
Ozark, MO

1 recommendation

jackal

Member

Click for full size
I found the local RT. It was right on one of the two main roads out of the neighborhood--I was shocked when I realized I'd been driving past it almost every day. Can't believe I never saw it before.

It's also about as close as I assumed it would be--2,390 feet away as the crow flies and 7/10 of a mile by road (no chance it loops away from me first). That explains why I qualify for DSL Elite and why my noise stats look fairly good.

Anyway, it looks a little larger than some photos of RTs I've seen. Also, the larger of the two cabinets has some definite cooling fan action going on, and the smaller of the two cabinets has a hidden power meter inside an unlocked flap (interestingly, the power meter is flashing 8s...). Would this be a VRAD or just a plain-vanilla RT?

If so, then maybe my neighborhood is indeed slated to get U-Verse soon...they're not selling it, yet, though, even if I put the address of the house visible in the background of the picture into the AT&T site....

ArgMeMatey
join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI

1 recommendation

ArgMeMatey

Member

said by jackal:

Would this be a VRAD or just a plain-vanilla RT?

The first-generation VRADs around here are beige 52B cabinets. The second-generation are ALP-248 in beige and then green. Here's a nice reference: »www.lawrenceks.org/asset ··· info.pdf

xsbell
join:2008-12-22
Canada

1 recommendation

xsbell to jackal

Member

to jackal
said by jackal:

Would this be a VRAD or just a plain-vanilla RT?

That's just a plain remote/hut/walk-in-cabinet/RFJ/etc.. which serves your POTS also. It's impossible to tell what type of shelves are inside (a tech could tell you probably), but most likely it's legacy gear. (Don't know what AT&T uses but up here it's a mix of Alcatel A1000 SDs, 7300 HDs, Lucent AMASs and Stinger FS+ shelves.)
jackal
join:2004-01-06
Ozark, MO

jackal

Member

Darn, that's what I was hoping not to hear. The cabinet looks almost brand new (no signs of wear or rust or anything, not that it rains much around here), so I was hoping it was a new install.

Oh well; I'll keep an eye out for AT&T trucks in the area as a sign of an upgrade. Hopefully the guy I talked to wasn't just blowing smoke that my area was slated for the U-Verse upgrade.

ArgMeMatey
join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI

ArgMeMatey to jackal

Member

to jackal
Given the presence of a survey stake and the lack of vegetation, it does seem like recent work. You might want to check with the adjacent homeowner or check public records.
jackal
join:2004-01-06
Ozark, MO

1 recommendation

jackal

Member

Well...almost five months and no sign of an upgrade at all.

It's even worse, now. Here are three speedtests in a row just now on an uncongested line:










Here are the traceroutes for the latter two--oddly, it seems the path to the AT&T server in Los Angeles goes via St. Louis, MO?!

Tracing route to lax.speedtest.sbcglobal.net [99.24.18.33]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
 
  1     1 ms     1 ms     1 ms  192.168.0.1
  2   665 ms   819 ms   897 ms  adsl-75-6-3-254.dsl.snlo01.sbcglobal.net [75.6.3
.254]
  3     *      788 ms   637 ms  12.83.104.145
  4   677 ms   702 ms   750 ms  12.122.158.50
  5   266 ms   237 ms   206 ms  cr1.sl9mo.ip.att.net [12.122.18.9]
  6   627 ms   478 ms   332 ms  ggr4.la2ca.ip.att.net [12.122.128.69]
  7   396 ms   370 ms   351 ms  12.120.29.186
  8   760 ms     *      941 ms  lax.speedtest.sbcglobal.net [99.24.18.33]
 
Trace complete.
 
Tracing route to speedtest.sjc01.softlayer.com [50.23.64.58]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
 
  1     1 ms     1 ms     1 ms  192.168.0.1
  2   583 ms   589 ms   741 ms  adsl-75-6-3-254.dsl.snlo01.sbcglobal.net [75.6.3
.254]
  3   651 ms   634 ms   239 ms  12.83.104.145
  4     *      641 ms   604 ms  12.122.158.50
  5   624 ms   627 ms   551 ms  12.122.149.57
  6   348 ms   421 ms   403 ms  12.252.87.30
  7   518 ms   525 ms   494 ms  ae5.dar02.sr01.sjc01.networklayer.com [173.192.1
8.251]
  8   704 ms   658 ms   750 ms  po2.fcr01.sr01.sjc01.networklayer.com [50.23.118
.133]
  9   369 ms     *      579 ms  speedtest.sjc01.softlayer.com [50.23.64.58]
 
Trace complete.
 

I can do the exact same test in 12 hours and it will show 5.2mbps and 50ms pings...

Not sure if there's anything to do except complain and wait...
jackal

1 recommendation

jackal

Member

And just proof that it's definitely a congestion issue and not a line quality issue, here is a test 12 hours later:


jackal

2 recommendations

jackal

Member

Ugh. Two years later and no progress.

Well, actually, there has been progress: it is no longer possible to sign up for DSL service at this address. So, if we ever disconnect, there goes the Internet.

Interestingly, though, DSL Extreme now shows service as available at the address (and for less than AT&T is charging, of course!).

So, here's the question: would switching to DSL Extreme relieve the congestion? Assuming the congestion is on AT&T's Redback, would DSL Extreme bypass that? I'm not familiar enough with the network architecture to picture where DSLX taps into the circuit.

Well Bonded
join:2015-10-17
Naples, FL

2 recommendations

Well Bonded

Member

said by jackal:

So, here's the question: would switching to DSL Extreme relieve the congestion? Assuming the congestion is on AT&T's Redback, would DSL Extreme bypass that?

Nope, DSL Extreme just resells AT&T ADSL.

Also if you are thinking of jumping ship be sure to not cancel your existing ADSL until the CLEC service is up and working properly or you very well may end up with no internet service at all.

mixdup
join:2003-06-28
Alpharetta, GA

mixdup

Member

said by Well Bonded:

said by jackal:

So, here's the question: would switching to DSL Extreme relieve the congestion? Assuming the congestion is on AT&T's Redback, would DSL Extreme bypass that?

Nope, DSL Extreme just resells AT&T ADSL.

Also if you are thinking of jumping ship be sure to not cancel your existing ADSL until the CLEC service is up and working properly or you very well may end up with no internet service at all.

Not entirely true. When it comes to resold U-Verse yes, but CLEC connections are not necessarily just the same old same old. Of course, if the congestion is at the RT, they'd be sharing the same backhaul to the CO anyway

Well Bonded
join:2015-10-17
Naples, FL

Well Bonded

Member

said by mixdup:

Not entirely true. When it comes to resold U-Verse yes, but CLEC connections are not necessarily just the same old same old.

Out of an RT there are only two options, resell AT&T ADSL or go with ISDN based IDSL which is around 128K.

Of course, if the congestion is at the RT, they'd be sharing the same backhaul to the CO anyway

If is resold ADSL, it will be out of the same AT&T DSLAM as AT&T ADSL and regardless that is not where congestion develops.

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
TP-Link TD-8616
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P

NormanS to jackal

MVM

to jackal
said by jackal:

Interestingly, though, DSL Extreme now shows service as available at the address (and for less than AT&T is charging, of course!).

So, here's the question: would switching to DSL Extreme relieve the congestion? Assuming the congestion is on AT&T's Redback, would DSL Extreme bypass that? I'm not familiar enough with the network architecture to picture where DSLX taps into the circuit.

It would depend on where the equipment is. From an RT, probably not; CLECs can't install DSLAMs in RTs. My ISP is Sonic, which can put their own DSLAMs in COs. My circuit is CO served, and only runs on AT&T copper from the premises to the CO. Tied in to a Sonic DSLAM at the CO, and on Sonic transit from there.

Are you in San Luis Obispo? I can't find out if Sonic serves there.
jackal
join:2004-01-06
Ozark, MO

1 recommendation

jackal to mixdup

Member

to mixdup
I think we've established above that the congestion is at the Redback (aggregation router) down in SLO, not the RT or CO up in Paso Robles. At least that's my latest guess based on what I've seen over the past few years.

Yes, DSL Extreme resells ADSL, but they do switch over from the AT&T network to their own backhaul at some point. If that point is between me and AT&T's oversubscribed Redback in SLO (i.e. it switches over to DSL Extreme at the Paso Robles CO or in SLO before it gets to the AT&T Redback), then that would potentially completely bypass the AT&T congestion.

On a separate note, re: potential upgrades to U-verse: fiber _must_ exist in the area, since Verizon recently put an LTE cell tower (disguised as a water tower, ha) on the hill just above the house that pumps out 30mbps+. Last time I drove Linne Road (the almost certain route of the line that serves that the RT pictured above), I did look to see if the markers indicated copper or fiber, but I don't recall that I was able to tell. But I digress.