dslreports logo
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc
Search similar:


uniqs
812
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

Router choices to handle four (or six) x 50/10 MLPPP connection

A friend of mine needs a fast internet connection to move raw video files between two offices for editing. One office is in the US and has access to fiber. The other office is in suburban Toronto (Vaughn) and apparently there's no nearby fiber to tap into.

I suggested that he look into TSI MLPPP as an alternative.

What router(s) should he look at to handle a 4-6 circuit MLPPP connection @ 50/10 per circuit?


MacGyver

join:2001-10-14
Vancouver, BC
·TELUS
Actiontec T3200M
Arcadyan WE410443-TS
Sipura SPA-2102

MacGyver

Does his address even qualify for VDSL?

TSI offers business VDSL 25/10 unlimited as their fastest offering at $109 a month, plus $4 for MLPPP and $5 for dry loop. MLPPP requires an unlimited line. And all lines have to be at an identical speed profile for it to work properly.
btech805
join:2013-08-01
Canada

btech805 to MaynardKrebs

Member

to MaynardKrebs
TSI MLPPP handles a maximum 2x6meg connection I believe.

As MacGyver has also said, it is also very important that he actually qualifies for VDSL services, which isn't guaranteed and to qualify for 50/10 as well he pretty well has to be within spitting distance of the cabinet (a few hundred meters).

That being said, you friend can always order multiple VDSL lines (if they qualify) and find a router or switch firmware to flash and that would support vdsl bonding at the firmware level. This would be 100% unsupported though by any ISP other than ensuring the individual connections themselves are up and running.

fluffybunny
@teksavvy.com

fluffybunny to MaynardKrebs

Anon

to MaynardKrebs
why not get a ZyXEL USG310 ? No need for MLPPP, you can load balance 6 lines without any issue.
I have a USG 300 and it handles two lines + backup USB data card fine from TSI and lightspeed and Wind.
canuckpilot
join:2008-04-27
Guelph, ON

canuckpilot

Member

^ I don't think this satisfies the requirements of the OP. The only way it would work without bonding is if they are able to use some sort of multi-threaded transfer protocol. On a single stream it isn't able to split over multiple connections IIRC.
canuckpilot

canuckpilot to MaynardKrebs

Member

to MaynardKrebs
Another thought... at $700/month for 6 50/10 lines, plus other expenses, it is probably cheaper to actually move office locations than try and make it work where they are now. OF course, that all depends on the size of the office, equipment, etc. but if it just a small office and small staff, I don't consider it unrealistic to move to an area where fibre is cheaper and available, and throw the rest of that $ at rent.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

said by canuckpilot:

Another thought... at $700/month for 6 50/10 lines, plus other expenses, it is probably cheaper to actually move office locations than try and make it work where they are now. OF course, that all depends on the size of the office, equipment, etc. but if it just a small office and small staff, I don't consider it unrealistic to move to an area where fibre is cheaper and available, and throw the rest of that $ at rent.

He did that with his US office in order to get fiber - the new place was actually a bit cheaper per sq. ft.
Here his rent would more than double to get to someplace that has fiber - he's looked.

Nitra
join:2011-09-15
Montreal

Nitra

Member

Does Rogers offer business services there?
Also in Vaughan, there are wireless options that may net better upstream.
BrianON
join:2011-09-30
Ottawa, ON

BrianON to MaynardKrebs

Member

to MaynardKrebs
Site to site VPN bonding or load balancing over multiple VPN links is another way to combine multiple WAN links in a scenario like this.
btech805
join:2013-08-01
Canada

btech805 to MaynardKrebs

Member

to MaynardKrebs
Theres no backhaul fiber in the area with Atria or even the local electrical company? These connections are usually extremely expensive though.

Anonymous1
@teksavvy.com

Anonymous1 to MaynardKrebs

Anon

to MaynardKrebs
Given the price of those 6 connections and a router to bond them you might want to compare costs for a wireless solution as it may be cheaper. In the Vaughan area there is at least one wireless provider I know of that can provide those speeds (Terago).

SimplePanda
BSD
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Montreal, QC

SimplePanda to btech805

Premium Member

to btech805
said by btech805:

TSI MLPPP handles a maximum 2x6meg connection I believe.

Not the case. There are many people using 4x and higher ADSL lines and there are at least a few people I've talked to doing MLPPP on 25Mbps and up VDSL2. TSI doesn't appear to have any upper limit on bonded connection counts or per-connection throughput.

Indeed, I'm considering doing a bonded 2 x 50/10 and TSI has indicated it would be no issue assuming I had the requisite hardware on my end.

OP: How much are you looking to spend on the router?

Given you're talking about $100 per connection per month already, I assume you have the budget for pro hardware so I'd suggest the Cisco ISR 4000 series or a mid-tier Juniper SRX. Either will easily handle this much throughput across that many lines.

Of course, being DSLR, you'll probably be told to build a white box and put pfSense or just straight up Linux on it.

Either way, for an implementation like this VLAN's will be your friend on the WAN interface.

I'd also shy away from wireless solutions...

Nitra
join:2011-09-15
Montreal

Nitra

Member

Terago isn't a conventional wisp.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to SimplePanda

Premium Member

to SimplePanda

A reasonable budget number for him is about $1k/month all-in between the cost of the lines and a suitable router lease.

Nitra
join:2011-09-15
Montreal

Nitra

Member

Have him call Terago and the local hydro utility.

fluffybunny
@teksavvy.com

fluffybunny to canuckpilot

Anon

to canuckpilot
thats what private torrents are for.
torrent the file and the zyxel will load balance it across all the lines.

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

Guspaz to MaynardKrebs

MVM

to MaynardKrebs
Normally you could get symmetrical 100 megabit fibre for less than that budget, so I'd tell him to try REAL hard to find a fibre provider that either has fibre not too far away, or has a reasonable install cost... There's lots of providers out there to call.

Don't bother with Terago, some googling indicates that they haven't lowered their prices from years ago (at least some 2013 reviews say as much), so if your friend really needs a 300/60 connection, he's looking at a $24,000 monthly bill from Terago. Or if 60/60 is fine, then only $4,800 per month.
Cloneman
join:2002-08-29
Montreal

Cloneman to MaynardKrebs

Member

to MaynardKrebs
Does Rogers still have a 500$/month monthly maximum overage for Cell Data?
With the right hardware, you could probably get 50mbit upload over LTE...

Of course after the first month with 1TB they'd probably kick you off...
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

said by Cloneman:

Does Rogers still have a 500$/month monthly maximum overage for Cell Data?
With the right hardware, you could probably get 50mbit upload over LTE...

Of course after the first month with 1TB they'd probably kick you off...

More like the 1st day.
He transfers raw video footage for editing - that's his business.
MaynardKrebs

MaynardKrebs to fluffybunny

Premium Member

to fluffybunny
said by fluffybunny :

thats what private torrents are for.
torrent the file and the zyxel will load balance it across all the lines.

I've never torrented before so I don't know how the sending server/link figures out that the receiver has multiple links to receive on.

For this example, assume that the US office has a 100Mbps fiber connection and is the sender of the torrent and that the Toronto office has a Zyxel box and four 25Mbps links plugged into it. So the outbound/inbound Mbps are (in aggregate) matched.

How does the Zyxel box and/or the receiving torrent software figure out how to keep the Toronto inbound links (4 x 25Mbps) fully saturated as a 100GB file is transferred?

Can you please explain that to me?

kevinds
Premium Member
join:2003-05-01
Calgary, AB

kevinds

Premium Member

Mikrotik router could do this,

I've been doing a lot of research into them with my planning to move to 2x50/10 or more in the future...

mackey
Premium Member
join:2007-08-20

mackey to canuckpilot

Premium Member

to canuckpilot
said by canuckpilot:

On a single stream it isn't able to split over multiple connections IIRC.

Actually you can on the upload side assuming your provider doesn't IP filter the connection. It's only the incoming (download) side which cannot be load balanced.

SimplePanda
BSD
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Montreal, QC

1 edit

SimplePanda to MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

said by fluffybunny :

thats what private torrents are for.
torrent the file and the zyxel will load balance it across all the lines.

I've never torrented before so I don't know how the sending server/link figures out that the receiver has multiple links to receive on.

For this example, assume that the US office has a 100Mbps fiber connection and is the sender of the torrent and that the Toronto office has a Zyxel box and four 25Mbps links plugged into it. So the outbound/inbound Mbps are (in aggregate) matched.

How does the Zyxel box and/or the receiving torrent software figure out how to keep the Toronto inbound links (4 x 25Mbps) fully saturated as a 100GB file is transferred?

Can you please explain that to me?

He's basically suggesting using the segmenting nature of BitTorrent to aggregate transfer across multiple links.

BitTorrent works by dividing files to be transferred into many segments (can be hundreds+ for very large files). The receiving client enumerates a list of the segments it requires and connects to many "seeders" that are capable of providing copies of the segments to the receiver. The receiver retrieves all of the segments, thus re-assembling the original file.

Making this work isn't specific to the Zyxel; any router capable of maintaining multiple connections would be able to make this solution work.

You could also just put 4 machines on a NAS/SAN (or use VM's) and have 4 x VDSL2 connections (one to each directly) and then seed your source file on each box, this providing 4 different machines all offering the complete set of segments. The downloading machine would theoretically connect to each of them equally and pull segments from all of them.

It's not going to be a wonderfully robust solution but it's certainly a low rent option.

LazMan
Premium Member
join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA

LazMan to MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

to MaynardKrebs
Vaughn should be pretty well covered...

If you can PM me the closest intersection; I'll check with some of my contacts.

1000/mth may be a little on the low side for fibre; but not horribly out of line, either.
btech805
join:2013-08-01
Canada

btech805 to SimplePanda

Member

to SimplePanda
said by SimplePanda:

said by btech805:

TSI MLPPP handles a maximum 2x6meg connection I believe.

Not the case. There are many people using 4x and higher ADSL lines and there are at least a few people I've talked to doing MLPPP on 25Mbps and up VDSL2. TSI doesn't appear to have any upper limit on bonded connection counts or per-connection throughput.

Indeed, I'm considering doing a bonded 2 x 50/10 and TSI has indicated it would be no issue assuming I had the requisite hardware on my end.

OP: How much are you looking to spend on the router?

Given you're talking about $100 per connection per month already, I assume you have the budget for pro hardware so I'd suggest the Cisco ISR 4000 series or a mid-tier Juniper SRX. Either will easily handle this much throughput across that many lines.

Of course, being DSLR, you'll probably be told to build a white box and put pfSense or just straight up Linux on it.

Either way, for an implementation like this VLAN's will be your friend on the WAN interface.

I'd also shy away from wireless solutions...

What i meant was the router teksavvy sells pre-configured maxes out at 6 meg adsl
voxframe
join:2010-08-02

voxframe to btech805

Member

to btech805
said by btech805:

TSI MLPPP handles a maximum 2x6meg connection I believe.

Certainly not the case.
I've run I believe 8 links at one point.
Granted, that was quite a few years ago, but it was done.

EDIT - Mine was done using a Mikrotik router based on an old computer with multiple NICs (Not tried with their Routerboards, although some of the new ones should be able to chew through that, the ones at the time couldn't)

PlatooN
join:2007-02-13
Kitchener, ON

PlatooN to MaynardKrebs

Member

to MaynardKrebs
if he's close enough to get 50/10 then there IS fibre in the area.
btech805
join:2013-08-01
Canada

btech805

Member

But, those fibers arent useable for a dedicated build out for a 100/100 connection like he wpuld want as his 1st choice. At a cost of anywhere from a few thousand to a couple hundred thousand up front, the OP can always ask Bell to build a dedicated fibre connection. Cost would depend on several factors like aerial vs buried infrastructure and distance from the CO.

But as far as simply extending existing FTTN fiber to the OP, it doesn't work that way.
Bugblndr
join:2010-03-02
Burlington, ON

Bugblndr to PlatooN

Member

to PlatooN
said by PlatooN:

if he's close enough to get 50/10 then there IS fibre in the area.

That's what I'd think. We were in a similar dilemma with our office a few years ago. We were using 6/1 DSL for a backup line and a WISP for our main internet connectivity.

There was no fibre on our street so I looked at doing MLPPP, for 4-5 lines. In the end I ordered fibre, It took Bell many months to run the line down the street but I'm very happy we went that route. It's been extremely stable and TSI has provided great support when we've had the odd issue.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to SimplePanda

Premium Member

to SimplePanda
said by SimplePanda:

He's basically suggesting using the segmenting nature of BitTorrent to aggregate transfer across multiple links.

BitTorrent works by dividing files to be transferred into many segments (can be hundreds+ for very large files). The receiving client enumerates a list of the segments it requires and connects to many "seeders" that are capable of providing copies of the segments to the receiver. The receiver retrieves all of the segments, thus re-assembling the original file.

Making this work isn't specific to the Zyxel; any router capable of maintaining multiple connections would be able to make this solution work.

You could also just put 4 machines on a NAS/SAN (or use VM's) and have 4 x VDSL2 connections (one to each directly) and then seed your source file on each box, this providing 4 different machines all offering the complete set of segments. The downloading machine would theoretically connect to each of them equally and pull segments from all of them.

So the single US 'seed box' could pump out 4 segments on the same outbound fiber at the same time to the same Canadian destination, and the Canadian receiver PC would be 'listening' on all 4 vDSL links?

I guess I'm not getting something..... which device(s)/software need to know/communicate that there's one 100Mbps pipe at one end and 4 x 25Mbps pipes at the other end, and that the sender has to break up the torrent into what is effectively 4 VLANs and send 1/4 the data to each of 4 different static/dynamic IP's at the receiving end?

US fiber has static ip. (eg. 123.123.123.123)
Canadian vDSL is either static/dynamic IP's

Does the Canadian 'receiver PC' send 4 different requests to the sender IP for a specific 100GB raw (eg. documentary1.vid) file and hope that each different 'request' travels out from a different vDSL ip address (ie. the Zyxel figures this out and does it automagically)?

Does the 'sender' PC torrent software then say, "Hey, I've got 4 requests from different IP's and I now have to send the WHOLE file to all 4 ip's (ie. send 400GB in total)? Or does the sending torrent software know that the whole file needs to only be transmitted once (only 100GB in total) and that 1/4 non-duplicated chunks need to be sent to each of the 4 Canadian IP's?

The whole purpose of this exercise is to send the file once - fast.

Sorry about the 'newbie' torrent questions - it's just something I don't know anything about.