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fixrman
From a broken heart to a hole in the sky
Premium Member
join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA
·Verizon FiOS

fixrman to rody_44

Premium Member

to rody_44

Re: [Help] Advice on Repair

rody, how do you make this statement:
said by rody_44:

5000 isnt super high for a dealer installed used scion engine. But im sure it included plenty of extras. Very well could have included a clutch. If so than im guessing they would be on the hook. If they did replace it when installing the engine they wont be volunteering that information.

And then come back with this:
said by rody_44:

5000 was on the high side.

You can't have it both ways, rody. Either the price was high or it was reasonable, but without knowing what the invoice was and all of the charges incurred, it cannot be determined. This discussion has gone downhill fast. Denigrating the shop without all of the details is not a particularly professional thing to do. Think about how you would feel if you were in business and were placed under a non-specific microscope.

I looked at pricing for a used Scion engine. LKQ shows 11 of them in the mileage range specified. The price is $2100.00 not including shipping price. They could come from nearly anywhere, from WA to VA and anywhere in between such as OH. They don't ship for free.

Harry's U-Pull It in Allentown has two Scions, no specific parts list or price list. They are 2005 and 2006 Scions. There is a note that all parts are sold "As Is". So a $1000.00 engine (if that's the price) from a place such as that may not have much value left in it. At least LKQ warrants their engines and has the engine information for reference - and the engine has already been removed.

It is important to note that the Owner of the vehicle created the problem by driving into high water. The Owner didn't have the funds to pay for the necessary repair and had to borrow the money. The vehicle was driven for 2-3 months, utilising a used engine that was surrounded by a vehicle whose total mileage was approximately 120K prior to the repair. After driving possibly (based on historical mileage) 2500+ miles, another problem surfaces. Now folks here are going to pick apart the shop and repair charges (with no direct information, might I add?!) because the vehicle has another unfortunate failure and it is the repair facility's fault?? Ludicrous!

The entire situation was preventable if the Owner had practised prudent driving in water.

If there is a better example of buyer's remorse, I'd love to hear it.

As an aside, that's a pretty hot car to be driving for one who "barely makes it on her income", but of course that is a rather unfair assessment to make, isn't it? After all, it may have been a gift from someone or perhaps it was acquired in better times.

Watch the movie Twelve Angry Men, starring Henry Fonda, Jack Klugman, Ed Begley, Lee J. Cobb and Jack Warden; see if you don't view this situation more objectively.

Asiabound
Ex-Pat
Premium Member
join:2002-12-21
Mabinay

Asiabound

Premium Member

said by fixrman:

rody, how do you make this statement:

said by rody_44:

5000 isn't super high ...

And then come back with this:
said by rody_44:

5000 was on the high side.

You can't have it both ways, rody.

Both statements clearly indicate high. One isn't "super" high... but, it still means high.
rody_44
Premium Member
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA

4 edits

rody_44 to fixrman

Premium Member

to fixrman
I make that statement based on the fact it might not be high as im sure the dealer replaced more than the motor. What we dont know. I think the average person understood what i meant. Especially considering i gave a real life scenario of where i paid 4700. If other things were done. 5 grand isnt high at all. If they just threw a used motor in it was very high. I highly doubt they just threw the used motor in and im sure they didnt reuse the antifreeze. The possible scenario you used. Not for 5000. Im guessing here but im guessing 8 hours to r&r a engine for that car. Of course the biggest question is what did the dealer mark up the used engine at. Most wont do the usual high markups on used engines but its a YMMV scenario.

Take my 4700 and add a clutch and we are right at 5 grand. But i had a hell of a lot of shit added. Some of which i doubt they had done so yea im leaning toward it was high and very possibly super high. but could have been a decent price without all the info. Im not going to tell someone they were ripped off when i dont know if they were or not. I clearly left it open for him to make a judgement on his own giving him a very possible scenario.

In my case i questioned the markup and they were honest and said they paid 1000 for the engine and marked it up 500 to make it 1500. Something i found acceptable given its them warranting the labor if it goes bad. Remember when i wanted the head gone over that voided the warranty for the yard.

In this case its really a tough call because your dealing with a 60 something thousand mile used engine thats coming up at 60000 that calls for going over the valves, timing belt and when they do that with this engine most times also involves checking the head. These engines have lets say not the best reputation when it comes to heads. As a mechanic im not sure a dealer would even agree to take the chance. He could have very well had everything i had done and walked away with 5000 being maybe high probably not.

Let me ask you would you put a used engine in and not do the routine maintenance most likely 5 thousand past the normal maint.? I wouldnt touch it without doing waterpump, timing and i would want to do the valves which is a maintenance item on these engines at 60000 miles. Would i do it without. No i would not. I think its a pretty safe assumption that this dealer wouldnt either. At least not at 5000.00.

In my eclipse case the engine had 85000 miles on it. Water pump froze which took out the timing components in the drive thru of the bank when i was out of town. I love japanese engines but they do have issues that have to be dealt with before the failures. with the japanese eclipse they call foe the heads torqued at 80,000. At which point they almost always come up with head issues that require a head gasket. Show me a eclipse with 50000 miles on it and i will show you a eclipse that seeps oil out the back of the head. And before you jump all over me it wasnt the head that failed it was the water pump.

»toyota-alabama.com/toyot ··· tervals/

fixrman
From a broken heart to a hole in the sky
Premium Member
join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA
·Verizon FiOS

fixrman

Premium Member

said by rody_44:

Let me ask you would you put a used engine in and not do the routine maintenance most likely 5 thousand past the normal maint.?

rody, I can't now, nor could I ever, spend my customer's money without authorisation. I can want to do all the legitimate PM services in the world, but the customer has to authorise them.

Let me ask you: If a person came to your shop asking for an engine replacement only, requesting that the estimate not be exceeded, would you take the job? If it was a $5,000.00 job, for argument's sake, would you take it? Would you add a disclaimer to the RO if there were additional repairs necessary or would you call to advise them?

I don't know what happened in this case, I am suggesting nobody but the original Owner knows the circumstances regarding the failure and resulting repair. Until the specifics are known crititcism of the repair charges and process should be held off.

I don't care what you did in the past or how you handled your repair. That was specific to your issue which you have knowledge of. We don't have the same benefit here because we only have a one-sided, vague story and a handful of conjecture.

I don't get the feeling you have ever run your own garage, so it is difficult for me to be able to take some of what you say with less than a few grains of salt.

mattmag

join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois

mattmag to rody_44

to rody_44
said by rody_44:

Let me ask you would you put a used engine in and not do the routine maintenance most likely 5 thousand past the normal maint.? I wouldnt touch it without doing waterpump, timing and i would want to do the valves which is a maintenance item on these engines at 60000 miles. Would i do it without. No i would not. I think its a pretty safe assumption that this dealer wouldnt either. At least not at 5000.00.

I'll add to this because I have been there and done that more times than I can actually count...

Would I? Yes, IF THE CUSTOMER wants it done, just as fixrman See Profile noted above. Did it happen every time we did an engine swap? No, not even close. You are spot-on with the concept, but the reality is, people have financial limitations that preclude the concept, and any kind of swap such as this is done with a fair degree of *educated* risk.

Would I refuse the job if they didn't do such maintenance items? No, not at all. I respect the customer and their limitations. I did, however, have a very personal, one-on-one with the customer, and make SURE they are comfortable with their decision, and that if something happens 500-1000-5000 miles down the road, they know full well that they had the *option* to deal with the component earlier.

It made for satisfied customers, and a satisfied shop-owner, because we were both "on the same page" and we could keep a good relationship with the customer that way.
rody_44
Premium Member
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA

1 edit

rody_44 to fixrman

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to fixrman
No i wouldnt do it and to be honest i doubt many dealers would. Hard to lay a warranty on something like that.

mattmag

join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois

1 recommendation

mattmag

said by rody_44:

No i wouldnt do it and to be honest i doubt many dealers would. Hard to lay a warranty on something like that.

It is apparent you have never been in the business. The warranty isn't provided by the dealer, or the shop, or whoever; It is part of the engine purchase. If the supplying company of the used engine does not require such additional cost, then there is no issue. If they stipulate certain part replacements before installation, then those are performed and calculated into the original estimate. They are NOT an add-on, or optional to the customer at that time.

I spent many years in the business, and saw many versions of this scenario over and over. It is all up to the parts supplier, just like any other repair.
rody_44
Premium Member
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA

4 edits

rody_44

Premium Member

Around here dealing with junk yards on used engines the yard will only replace the engine. You buy new parts and yes they also supply the warranty for labor. Junk yards will only replace the engine when used and stipulate in the warranty it does not include the labor for replacing a engine that goes bad. Might not be the same in your area but thats how it is in PA. Thats why a lot of dealers wont even install used engines here. The garage is on the hook for labor if the engine goes bad. LOL, never been in the business. I have that fancy gold patch you have.

The labor is covered in the markup of the engine warranty wise when dealing with yard engines. She received a 1 year warranty on the used engine. If that engine goes bad that dealer is eating 100 percent of the labor if that engine goes bad. The yard will only replace the engine. Its in the warranty for used engines. Some yards wont even warranty the engine let alone the labor. But its safe to assume a dealer wont be using that yard.

Im guessing you dont have not dealt with many used engines?

mattmag

join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois

1 recommendation

mattmag

said by rody_44:

Im guessing you dont have not dealt with many used engines?...

I'm guessing you're joking, right?

As an independent shop owner of more than 18 years, and as a dealership service manager for 7 more, yes, I dealt with probably hundreds of used engines. Used transmissions too, and damn near anything else you can think of. Axle assemblies, steering gears, wheels, spindles, control arms, driveshafts, and the list goes on. Give me a break...

Basically, it suck to be in PA apparently, or we just have better sources for our used components. Virtually all used engines I have installed were fully warranted, replacement AND labor for at least 90 days for the cheaper sales, and as long as 2 years on the newer, lower mileage versions. Never had an issue with any of the 3 yards I routinely dealt with. A very few we would get with no warranty, but those were for cases of having the lowest possible cost for that particular situation.
fixrman
From a broken heart to a hole in the sky
Premium Member
join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA
·Verizon FiOS

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fixrman to rody_44

Premium Member

to rody_44
said by rody_44:

Might not be the same in your area but thats how it is in PA.

I don't know what planet you are living on, but that is not a PA standard. I think mattmag is correct that you have not been in the automoble repair business, at least not in the professional sense.

I have replaced many engines in my time doing professional automotive repair and I have replaced or removed engines in my own garage. I have purchased them from a variety of sources but I can tell you that in the event of a failure, it depends how a failure occurs who ends up paying for labour. If it is a shop service error, then yes, the shop has to eat it. If the used engine sale requires certain parts or fluid replacements that the customer elects not to incur additional expense for, then the /customer/ pays again for labour.

I have been to court over supposed "incorrect service practices" several times and have not lost a case for myself or the shop I represented because the proper documentation and notification had been given to the customer and they signed the Repair Order acknowledging that they have read the Terms and Conditions of the Service Agreement.

Sometimes a failure is a 50/50 deal, maybe shop/customer, customer/supplier, or shop/supplier. I have had [new or used] parts fail on a vehicle and I have successfully charged back the supplier or parts house for labour. Maybe not all of the labour, but some of it. Sometimes it was in the customer's best interest or as a goodwill gesture to absorb the labour cost of a repair. Some small repairs might have been done at the outset at no charge as a goodwill gesture.

I'd be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that mattmag has done many more used engine replacements than you have. I'd bet I have as well, unless of course you work in a junk yard (not that there is anything wrong with that). You seem to use the junk yard solution often, mostly the U-Pull it variety. Not that it is a contest, but I don't gather, from the way you post, that you have as much experience in automotive repair as you do, say, in HD truck clutch replacements. You don't strike me as someone who has spent much time, if any at all, dealing with the public in the front end of a service department. Either that or you are not good at expressing yourself. You seem to have a pre-conceived notion of the way you think things should be rather than the way they really are. Well, maybe they are that way for you but I'd say, after reading many of your posts, you have not been a garage owner, you have not worked for a professional automobile repair shop and you have not been in a position that required direct contact with customers and a good grasp of good customer handling. Sorry if that offends you but I suspect other professionals who post here might feel the same way.

Fancy gold patch? I don't think somebody that has an accomplishment like the one I think you may be referring to does not speak of it in such a minimising manner - if they indeed have it.
rody_44
Premium Member
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA

rody_44 to Tex

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to Tex
I will admit im bad at expressing myself. But yes im ASE Certified Master. Technically Master Truck Technician. Where im sure you guys have the auto side. Years ago there use to be a saying bigger wrenches bigger pay. Not the case anymore tho and it really doesnt matter. I had to get out of it because i lost fingers. But no i wouldnt be so sure anyone did more than me as far as engines. I had 18 years where i did nothing but rebuild engines, transmissions and rears for Ryder.
Ryder closed the shop and it went independent. That also brought on pretty well all jasper engines
fixrman
From a broken heart to a hole in the sky
Premium Member
join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA
·Verizon FiOS

fixrman

Premium Member

OK, well... Even though I did some big truck service alongside my dad (RIP), in no way does that make me a truck guy. So if somebody had a problem with a Big Ol' Pete, I probably wouldn't have much to say on that because I'd be guessing and having to rely on anecdotes or second-hand stories in my response.

A Truck ASE Certification doesn't have much in the way of similarity with the Automobile side, they are much too different. Diesel and gasoline systems may have similarities, but they are in no way the same except they may share some common components. Working on one's own vehicles is also not the same as doing so in a professional shop for the simple reason that in a professional shop, the volume of vehicles worked on in a day and repetition of like-repairs solidifies skills and cements knowledge in a way sporadic repair does not.

I would say on the pay side of things, compensation may have evened out again. Pay doesn't matter in the realm of knowledge; it doesn't matter how much one makes, it is all about how much one can keep.

mattmag

join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois

mattmag to rody_44

to rody_44
said by rody_44:

But yes im ASE Certified Master. Technically Master Truck Technician. Where im sure you guys have the auto side.

Ahhh I see. That makes a difference in several ways. Also just being on the technician side, and not seeing the inner workings of the management side can skew the look of the way things happen. I'm no HD tech at all, I can guarantee that.

You mentioned the "fancy gold patch" (and took a licking from fixrman because of it ) I actually received the "Double Gears", back when they were orange, if that tells you anything...
rody_44
Premium Member
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA

4 edits

rody_44

Premium Member

The only thing the gold patch meant to me was a extra 3 dollars a hour. But FWIW you do know that ryder and budget rent a car is one and the same. It wasnt only hd trucks. It included everything from a small passenger car to any type of vehicle you can think about. »www.theautochannel.com/n ··· 454.html

Ford had a assembly line that did nothing but build vehicles for ryder. While technically ryder was acquired by budget rent a car. Which was basically Sears. Who knows who owns it now. But even when it was ryder it was a open shop to the public. They still badge ryder but thats just a name. Some kind of weird freaking deal when ryder closed shop. Basically we still got all the work. We just didnt no longer work for Ryder. But yea we really didnt deal with the major car repairs. It was easier to send them to the dealer. We were authorized for warranty work as far as the manufactures were concerned. When you buy 5,000 vehicles at a crack they tend to agree to that.

After about 2000 i no longer really liked working there. When i lost my fingers i pretty well just quit my job. Which i lost thanks to a outside job and me rushing because the customer needed the vehicle at 7 am. 2nd shift was suppose to finish it and didnt. I rushed the job and did something i shouldnt have. They wanted me to rehab fingers after they sewed them back on. I refused to stay out of work and quit instead. Been moving around ever since. And no i didnt quit to sue and never received a dime from them. I just wanted to work. Severely limited on what i can do now. No feeling in my left hands fingers. ASE certs expired in 2006 didnt really see a need to retest.
lawsoncl
join:2008-10-28
Spirit Lake, ID

2 edits

lawsoncl to fixrman

Member

to fixrman
I treat ASE certs, the same way I treat IT certs - they don't mean anything without the experience to back it up.

I took a 93 Grand Cherokee to a shop because I had my arm in a sling at the time. I should have walked out when the ASE Certified Tech started insisting he had to pull the tranny to do it. Instead I pointed out that it was a two piece seal and you pulled the oil pan and rear cap to change it. I got it back and it was leaking even worse and he kept blaming it on the CCV. I finally re-did it myself a month later. The idiot didn't even put all the pan screws back in. It looked like he tried to get the upper half of the seal out with a chisel and then gave up and only replaced the lower half. It was oil tight once I did the job properly. I'm still astounded that people keep recommending this guy.
fixrman
From a broken heart to a hole in the sky
Premium Member
join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA
·Verizon FiOS

fixrman

Premium Member

said by lawsoncl:

I treat ASE certs, the same way I treat IT certs - they don't mean anything without the experience to back it up.

Agreed. That's one of the reasons I had difficulty training tech school graduates because they thought they already knew it all. Loaded up on theory but little tactile experience.

At first I was going to ask, "Do what?", but it was a rear crank seal. I never cared for two piece seals, but then again I didn't care for rear crank seal replacements, either. I did many, many on Range Rovers, Defenders and Discoveries, but I can tell you from experience that the crank seal isn't the real problem on those. Jeeps I don't know about, but I do know a one-piece replacement, if available would have been preferable to me.

One thing to remember, unfortunately - even good guys sometimes take dumb shortcuts, and sometimes well-trained guys don't translate what they learned to their hands. :-(
lawsoncl
join:2008-10-28
Spirit Lake, ID

1 edit

lawsoncl

Member

Yup. I see the guys that went to IT bootcamp, got a Microsoft, ISC, or Comptia cert and suddenly they're experts. I even interviewed a guy with a Cisco CCIE who had never touched an actual piece of Cisco gear.

I also see lots of what you posted about in the other thread - people who are clueless about computers and just want to use it (or drive it in your example) and not worry about little details like backups or basic internet security. I also see the other side with the engineers and designers who just want to build something that works and not worry about maintaining it or whether the product can be hacked by a 12-yr old in his moms basement.
fixrman
From a broken heart to a hole in the sky
Premium Member
join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA
·Verizon FiOS

fixrman

Premium Member

said by lawsoncl:

I also see lots of what you posted about in the other thread - people who are clueless about computers and just want to use it (or drive it in your example) and not worry about little details like backups or basic internet security. I also see the other side with the engineers and designers who just want to build something that works and not worry about maintaining it or whether the product can be hacked by a 12-yr old in his moms basement.

People for some reason like whistling in the dark. They procrastinate, hoping for "magic". The only FM there is comes from the radio transmitter/receiver.

I think the engineering bit is trying to strike a balance between quality and cost. Too high quality means a product may be exclusive and not affordable so an engineering compromise is made with a percentage of "acceptable failures" being the result; hopefully the failures occur within the warranty period.

mattmag

join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois

mattmag to lawsoncl

to lawsoncl
said by lawsoncl:

I treat ASE certs, the same way I treat IT certs - they don't mean anything without the experience to back it up.

Absolutely. There is a big divide between book-smart and job-smart.