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fixrman
From a broken heart to a hole in the sky
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join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA
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fixrman

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[Tech] American Drivers and Idiot Lights

OK, so let me get into all too familiar territory here (I can hear the groans already) - up on the soapbox.

You ( mattmag ) made a post earlier that mentioned repair facilities and "due diligence" (Thread, [Help] engine light solid). Well, what about a customer's due diligence?

I have a tough statement to make about vehicle owners - American vehicle owners - and it is going to be a general statement, a statement that unfortunately is, by and large, true: The American driving public is stupid. Why do I make this statement? Because time and again, all over the country, people post in forums all over the place - this one included - questions that show gross ignorance about automobiles. Not that owners need to be experts, but they owe it to themselves to know things about their car, whether they be male or female. Automobile ownership brings with it responsibility.

Now there are going to be many people who are going to take great offence to what I have said. But the evolution of automobiles suggests that I am correct. There is a reason that lights have been the standard in automobiles for quite a long time, starting with Hudson in the 1930s. These were implemented for the simple reason that people could not or did not use the gauges on the vehicle to determine when there was a fault. Common gauges included a voltmeter and an oil pressure gauge, but could also have included a temperature gauge and ammeter. FMVSS 101 has a list of specifications for controls and displays.

Lights were preferable to gauges for other reasons as well: People freak out when a light is illuminated in their dash panel. That's why they are there and hard lessons taught people to freak out. When the red Oil Pressure light came on, it was often too late. Hard Lesson 1, time for an engine overhaul or replacement. My wife (prior to our marriage) neglected her car, a '79 Bonneville 4.9l Auto, and the engine seized. Now, we have lights that can tell us if the oil is low (if equipped) or it is time to change the oil (if equipped) but all vehicles have a low Oil Pressure Indicator. There is also a Battery or Alternator indicator. MIL, Service Engine Soon, Service Engine NOW, TRAC, TCS, TEMP, ABS, are all there to tell people something important, but rarely do they get heeded in any case. Usually when a light comes on, people will ignore them, thinking it will "go away by itself". Just like that strange noise will "fix itself".

The reason I say the American driving public are stupid would be because in most circumstances, they barely know what those symbols mean. To a lot of people, that light is just another way to make people spend money at the OE dealership, because "they make cars today so you have to go back to the dealer". Wrong! There is a reason that manufacturers have made it difficult for people to do some things on their cars: They don't want to be blamed for improper service procedures. Every mechanic or technician knows at least one person who did one or more of the following: put engine oil or another fluid into their master cylinder reservoir; drained the automatic transmission fluid (back in the days when there was a drain plug commonly in the AT pan) for an engine oil change, left the transmission nigh to dry and overfilled the engine oil by 5 quarts; added coolant to the washer bottle; drained the engine oil and left that pan dry and added oil to the transmission; mangled some repair (pick the system, brakes would be common) - all in the name of Saving Money To Avoid Being Ripped Off (a hackneyed and trite term) by the Repair Shop. This is by no means an exhaustive list of service blunders.

But guess what? When it all goes wrong, who do the people go back to for correction? The Dealer! They tell them that the car is messed up, they were just driving along and _______ happened. They don't know why the backing plates are mangled (a true story I can relate regarding a guy who "helped" his neighbor replace rear brake shoes by bending the backing plate), or how the transmission has no fluid in it but there were no signs of any leak. Or the vehicle that comes in with no rotor faces left, just cooling fins, and the "noise just happened on my way to work today". Guess who they want to pay for that?

An automobile is the second biggest purchase most people make in their lives and many people don't take the time to perform due diligence beforehand. They don't know service costs or responsibilities. They blow off the salesman or woman when they try to get them to understand features, controls and options. They fail to read the Owner's manual and when invited to a New Owners class (with refreshments), they blow it off, even when it is put on at no cost to them. They don't look for competitive prices for either the vehicle itself or service, then lament after the fact that they were oversharged. Profit, in the automotive world, is a dirty word and extremely subjective. But people will pay $4000.00 or more for a television.

After buying that new car, instead of enjoying the ability to be able to get one, people have a tendency after the sale is complete to go over the vehicle with a fine-toothed comb and then want to build more value into their purchase by hounding the Service Department with unreasonable requests about the vehicle operation, that, had they listened during the sales process, would have been explained to them and is operating as designed. But in their haste to get out and show off the new purchase, they didn't listen or didn't have time. Now they don't like something, that leads to other somethings and pretty soon the vehicle is a piece of shit they never should have bought in the first place. The same car or truck they talked about for weeks yet didn't really research other than the colour and options, the one they will be paying for over multiple years. Incredible. The complaints lessen with time of course and it is remarkable how much inconvenience an owner will put up with when the Warranty Purse snaps shut.

Americans can be heavily influenced to buy or lease (unwise if one can't write off mileage or payments) because of the illusion of "free maintenance". Yeah, right. Manufacturers don't provide free maintenance, it is built into the price of the vehicle. Just as are any warranties, incentives, whatever - they are included in the sale price. The manufacturers have been doing this for quite a while and they are not in the business to lose money. If they do, they go away.

ropeguru
Premium Member
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA

ropeguru

Premium Member

I couldn't agree with you more.
telco_mtl
join:2012-01-06

telco_mtl to fixrman

Member

to fixrman
AMEN so true, and those of us who like to know whats going on get themselves a scanguage II to keep an eye on things lol
Dodge
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join:2002-11-27

2 recommendations

Dodge to fixrman

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to fixrman
I don't understand your post at all. We are in a catch 22 situation, the dumber people become, the more electronics manufacturers put in to control "the stupidity", the more the public relies on those electronics to tell them what to do, and so on.

On the other hand TV, movies and other media, condition the public to ignore these lights. The "check engine light" is has been in so many jokes over the years, that no one takes it seriously anymore.
said by fixrman:

After buying that new car, instead of enjoying the ability to be able to get one, people have a tendency after the sale is complete to go over the vehicle with a fine-toothed comb and then want to build more value into their purchase by hounding the Service Department with unreasonable requests about the vehicle operation, ...... The complaints lessen with time of course and it is remarkable how much inconvenience an owner will put up with when the Warranty Purse snaps shut.

The problem also lies with the dealer service departments. A lot of time they assume that the person is being annoying and are refusing to actually investigate the issues. I've gotten my car back with "can't recreate" line so many times, that I'm now providing them videos of the issues whenever I can (I mean I can't videotape suspension rattle).

There is also a huge difference between what the customer considers to be normal, and what the dealer / manufacturer consider to be normal. sometimes it's reasonable, sometimes it's not. For example, panoramic sunroof cover flapping in the wind if all windows are open. Dealer: "well it's cloth, what do you want us to do about it, that's how it's built". Well if that's how it's built, why wasn't it doing it for the first 1.5 years? Dealer: you probably didn't notice it. This goes on for a while, until they finally disassemble everything and turns out it is broken and half the assembly is off the rails. So in this situation, who's right? Because clearly the customer started out as an annoying prick.

beck
MVM
join:2002-01-29
On The Road

beck to fixrman

MVM

to fixrman
Other than the car aspect, this can and is true for any market area.

Example is the forum here on "No I won't fix your ***** computer".

Or the hospitality industry. People are pigs not just idiots.

I feel for you. I do.

Had a guy to fix my satellite. He gets on the rood and I turn it on. It starts moving to acquire the the sat. signal. The guy comes down and says it's working fine. And I look at him in disbelief. It has not acquired a signal and is just moving around up there. Bringing that to his attention because that is WHY I paid for him to come out. His response is "it's old." Well, old is relative. About 8 years old, ok. This is the guy that the company recommended. So... am I the idiot here? I don't think so. And no, I can't afford a couple grand for a new system as he suggested. I required him to go back up and manually adjust for a signal. I paid big $$ for him to come out in the first place and 5 minutes didn't seem right for that amount and he did nothing. And yes, it did get a signal when manually adjusted.

And on cars, took the Ranger in for an oil change. They told me the license plate light was out. I paid to get a new one put in, However, it doesn't work. So I suppose a short. But shouldn't they have checked if I paid them?

Not everyone has the knowledge or ability for any specific thing. The idiots are here forever and I am one of them. Sigh.
fixrman
From a broken heart to a hole in the sky
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join:2003-02-10
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fixrman to Dodge

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to Dodge
said by Dodge:

The problem also lies with the dealer service departments. A lot of time they assume that the person is being annoying and are refusing to actually investigate the issues. I've gotten my car back with "can't recreate" line so many times, that I'm now providing them videos of the issues whenever I can (I mean I can't videotape suspension rattle).

I suppose I was lucky then. We were not allowed to blow off customer complaints like that, nor would I. I never felt that, knowing that most people abhor going to a service department, that they were there for shits and giggles so I would look at their complaint(s).

If one is presenting to a service department and consistently receiving UTDC (unable to duplicate concern) responses, a ride with the Service Manager is in order. Treat the vehicle complaint like a medical complaint; would one accept those answers from a doctor? People with any kind of problem need to be their own advocate.
said by Dodge:

There is also a huge difference between what the customer considers to be normal, and what the dealer / manufacturer consider to be normal.

A first step is to take a look at the Owner Manual. A call to the person selling the car could also clear up a lot and of course I already mentioned how people blow off the introductory process during Final Delivery.
said by Dodge:

For example, panoramic sunroof cover flapping in the wind if all windows are open. Dealer: "well it's cloth, what do you want us to do about it, that's how it's built". Well if that's how it's built, why wasn't it doing it for the first 1.5 years? Dealer: you probably didn't notice it. This goes on for a while, until they finally disassemble everything and turns out it is broken and half the assembly is off the rails. So in this situation, who's right? Because clearly the customer started out as an annoying prick.

This can be a common concern, generally referred to as a wind buffeting-type noise. A simple road test can confirm it. If the concern is claimed to be not able to be duplicated, the best thing to do is take a ride with a Shop Foreman, Lead Technician or Service Manager.

Sometimes the customer is an annoying prick. Not you specifically, I don't know you. I have known /many/ people who, on the first service visit, come into the dealership with demands and a snotty attitude before anyone has even had a chance to try to help them. Flies are more attracted to honey than vinegar so folks should remember that.

It is important to remember there is a difference between a customer and an owner with a broken car. The former is involved in the repair, provides good information on the complaint and is part of the process. The latter throws a hissy fit in the Service Department, is difficult, demands solutions for non-existent problems, does not answer or return phone calls, wants everything for nothing and expects pick up and delivery. Often times the latter is a person of relatively high self-importance who believes it is their world, we just happen to be living in it; everything is extremely inconvenient to them, they can't be bothered with minutia.
fixrman

fixrman to beck

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to beck
said by beck:

They told me the license plate light was out. I paid to get a new one put in, However, it doesn't work. So I suppose a short. But shouldn't they have checked if I paid them?

Yes. Is it possible the lamp was OK at install and failed a very short time later? Did you call them and let them know that the lamp they installed, failed?

Perhaps you are a bit unlucky, probably not an idiot.
TheMG
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Canada
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TheMG to Dodge

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said by Dodge:

The "check engine light" is has been in so many jokes over the years, that no one takes it seriously anymore.

The problem I have with check engine lights is that in modern vehicles almost anything can cause it to turn on. Suppose you don't have a code reader, how are you supposed to know what the problem is and whether or not you can defer it or should have it looked at ASAP? Heck, something as simple and benign as a bad gas cap can turn on the CEL.

I always have a code reader in my vehicle for this reason. I like to know WHY the CEL comes on if it comes on.

I think this is part of the reason why the general public have started ignoring the CEL and think it's a money grab. Bring vehicle in, pay $99 diagnostic fee and find out all you needed was a $20 gas cap? Doesn't give the average consumer a lot of confidence.

fordfiesta
@commspeed.net

fordfiesta

Anon

I don't have a gas cap! What am I to do

As far as severity of problem, amber for whenever and red for now on each fault.
PX Eliezer1
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join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1 to fixrman

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to fixrman
I'll disagree a little with your premise.

Often times the check engine light (CEL) is garbage.

My sister had a car in which it was on for a bunch of years---now I have that car and it continues.

The OBD code is P0420 or P0430 or sometimes both. You know what those are. Emissions crap. It's impossible to make some computers happy.

And the car has been to many private mechanics over the years, as well as the dealerships. They've replaced various sensors, the catalytic convertor itself, etc.

Nothing helps. Nor does using something like Seafoam.

There's no fix to the CEL being on, but the car itself runs fine---quite well for a 1996 in fact.

So yes, I will continue to ignore a CEL that's been a false alarm for over a decade.

-----

Same for my wife, she has a somewhat newer Nissan.

The CEL comes on every winter when the gas stations start to sell that special Federally-mandated winter gas, and it goes off every spring when the gas is back to normal.

BurntAgain
@rr.com

BurntAgain to fixrman

Anon

to fixrman
I think all those "idiot" lights are dumb, maybe a light for low fuel, low window washer, and the CEL, but oil, temp, voltage, amperage should all be REAL working gauges not those that go to the middle and pretty much stay there regardless of what is happening, with idiots lights by the time it comes on it is usually too late to do anything, temp gauge is getting as little high lets stop at the next place and give it a rest and I can check things .... idiot temp light comes on ... oh crap we are stuck now.

Explanations of what the meters are and what the numbers mean should be in the owners manual.

sweller
join:2009-04-25
Tucson, AZ

sweller to fixrman

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I knew we were in deep doodoo when I first noticed that

Help Wanted - Automotive

moved from Trade to Technical.

hurfy
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join:2002-08-06
Spokane, WA

hurfy to fixrman

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to fixrman

unfortunately there seems to be some truth there

ROFL

My car actually has an idiot light to tell you to check the gauges !
I almost did fall to the floor laughing when I read that in the manual.

Headed out to drain my oil and make sure the idiot light works
fixrman
From a broken heart to a hole in the sky
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join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA
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fixrman to PX Eliezer1

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Re: [Tech] American Drivers and Idiot Lights

P0420/30 are catalyst efficiency codes. There are several causes, including deteriorated or coated catalyst monolith, exhaust leak(s) or a replacement converter is not good quality. Sometimes the ECU calibration is the problem. It is repairable, but it may not be cheap.

Usually a calibration problem causes the oxygenated fuel-related MIL event. I recall back in 1994 Pontiac (likely all 3800 engine calibrations and others) had difficulty with the oxygenated fuel. MTBE made the exhaust stink as well. :-(

My premise is sound but I do feel your frustration that no one is apparently taking the time to repair the problem. It may seem like garbage to you (and I also feel the Feds should have gone after smokestack emissions, first) but there are well thought out reasons for the types of codes there are and the parameters that cause MIL events.
fixrman

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fixrman to BurntAgain

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said by BurntAgain :

I think all those "idiot" lights are dumb, maybe a light for low fuel, low window washer, and the CEL, but oil, temp, voltage, amperage should all be REAL working gauges not those that go to the middle and pretty much stay there regardless of what is happening, with idiots lights by the time it comes on it is usually too late to do anything, temp gauge is getting as little high lets stop at the next place and give it a rest and I can check things .... idiot temp light comes on ... oh crap we are stuck now.

Explanations of what the meters are and what the numbers mean should be in the owners manual.

That's the point. Those gauges were in the cars and they were removed because people didn't use them. Light annoy and they serve the purpose, well. People in general spend no time reading Owner Manuals, but they spend lots of time complaining about things they do not understand, across the board.
fixrman

fixrman to hurfy

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to hurfy

Re: unfortunately there seems to be some truth there

Remember when Chrysler cars talked to the driver?

"A Door is a Jar!" {GRIN}

"Your engine oil pressure is low. Prompt service is required!"
PX Eliezer1
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join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1 to fixrman

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to fixrman

Re: [Tech] American Drivers and Idiot Lights

Appreciate the info, thanks.
PX Eliezer1

PX Eliezer1 to fixrman

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to fixrman
said by fixrman:

The American driving public is stupid. Why do I make this statement? Because time and again, all over the country, people post in forums all over the place - this one included - questions that show gross ignorance about automobiles.

Indeed, by sheer coincidence I just saw this:

Fake engine noise has become one of the auto industry’s dirty little secrets, with automakers from BMW to Volkswagen turning to a sound-boosting bag of tricks. Without them, today’s more fuel-efficient engines would sound far quieter and, automakers worry, seemingly less powerful, potentially pushing buyers away.

Softer-sounding engines are actually a positive symbol of just how far engines and gas economy have progressed. But automakers say they resort to artifice because they understand a key car-buyer paradox: Drivers want all the force and fuel savings of a newer, better engine — but the classic sound of an old gas-guzzler.

»www.washingtonpost.com/b ··· ory.html
Dodge
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said by fixrman:

That's the point. Those gauges were in the cars and they were removed because people didn't use them. Light annoy and they serve the purpose, well. People in general spend no time reading Owner Manuals, but they spend lots of time complaining about things they do not understand, across the board.

The manufacturers put too many useless lights and half of the owner manual is legal crap how they are not responsible for anything, without any useful information. Love the "avoid excessive speed or you'll flip over" Really what's excessive exactly? Put a number on it. Can you please show me where in a 2013 Nissan Pathfinder manual it says that if the transmission will wind up low on fluid, because for example they don't know how to build coolers properly and hoses fall off dumping all fluid instantaneously, no lights will come on, the transmission will enter "fail safe" mode, and F the driver if you are in the process of merging into highway traffic and just lost all ability to do anything but steer and brake. There is 0 lights to tell you this, nothing, nada. Car just stops accelerating, and you get to play a fun game of avoid a semi with only brakes at your disposal, but if your oxygen sensor is a bit out of alignment, well in that case, sure, we'll light up a super scary CEL for you.

With newer cars there is so much crap happening on the dashboard, I'm suprised how anyone notices anything at all. You have various "fun" indicators like MPG, radio stations (because that clearly belongs between a speedometer and a tachometer), warnings that "it's cold outside" (seriously, what am I supposed to draw from this warning, oh shit suddenly ice?), etc that no one even looks there.
fixrman
From a broken heart to a hole in the sky
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join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA
·Verizon FiOS

fixrman

Premium Member

said by Dodge:

half of the owner manual is legal crap

Blame our litigious society for that. If people took personal responsibility for their cockups instead of trying to blame [any] manufacturer, you wouldn't have all that.
said by Dodge:

if your oxygen sensor is a bit out of alignment,

They aren't aligned, that's a suspension term. The manufacturers have to do the Feds bidding on Emission Control Systems, no choice. All of the things you see today are mandated, partly because people neglect their cars. Now, they can't because they have to pass Emissions testing.

chip89
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join:2012-07-05
Columbia Station, OH

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Well I know everything about my car like it's a V6 & Can use E85. & Take Really good care of it get service on time & Even know the oil type.
chip89

chip89 to Dodge

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I Take any seriously when mine went on in warranty I took it right in to Ford. & If it ever goes on I'll take it right to Ford. Also Here it has to be off to own a car with E-Check.
chip89

chip89 to TheMG

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Well My Car does't have a Gas Cap.
chip89

chip89 to BurntAgain

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My SUV has a temp gauge.
chip89

chip89 to fixrman

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to fixrman

Re: unfortunately there seems to be some truth there

My Car has that it's called message center it's really useful it tells me things like how many miles I go before hitting E and my current real MPG not the EPA Garbage.
daveinpoway
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join:2006-07-03
Poway, CA

1 recommendation

daveinpoway to PX Eliezer1

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to PX Eliezer1

Re: [Tech] American Drivers and Idiot Lights

In your location, you may be able to ignore a "false alarm" CEL, but, in California (and probably other places as well), if the CEL is on, you will automatically fail an emissions inspection and thus will not be able to renew the vehicle registration.
daveinpoway

daveinpoway

Premium Member

My memory is not perfect, but I seem to recall that some cars (years ago) were built with both gauges and "idiot lights".

PoloDude
Premium Member
join:2006-03-29
Aiken, SC

PoloDude to fixrman

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to fixrman
The "problem" in part,is the cars themselves. We have 3 cars, An Acrura MDX , a older Prius, and a 2007 F250 SD
The Acura has an assortment of a few gauges but electronic warnings for everything down to individual tire pressure.
Prius has NO gauges. Just digital speedometer and warnings for everything else.
I currently have a intermittent issue with the headlight leveling system. I already replaced the sensor unit and am not worried about anymore. The thing that pisses me off is that when it triggers I get a big scary red triangle with an ! in it. then a small icon for the lights. Had to research what it was.
MY truck has the basic gauges in the dash. Then previous owner added a pillar column with Boost pressure,Exhaust temp,Oil temp and Tranny temp. I added a stand alone Voltmeter.
My opinion is more is better on gauges ,but if there is only idiot lights they should be clear as to what the problem is . With the modern dash displays there should be no reason to have to have a code reader was something triggers a warning code.
PX Eliezer1
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Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1 to daveinpoway

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to daveinpoway
said by daveinpoway:

In your location, you may be able to ignore a "false alarm" CEL, but, in California (and probably other places as well), if the CEL is on, you will automatically fail an emissions inspection and thus will not be able to renew the vehicle registration.

NJ has emissions inspection every 2 years.

My sister's mechanics were somehow able to Harrypotter this car through inspection several times.

I got the car from her and only had to take it through once so far. Although I had reset the alarms with a consumer-level OBD device, they were still shown on the car's computer as "pending". I don't know how I passed but I did.
fixrman
From a broken heart to a hole in the sky
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Hatboro, PA
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fixrman to PoloDude

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The cars are the way they are because of the way people are. Look up the history of "Idiot Lights" and you will learn that the reason they came into being was because gauges were ineffective at warning drivers and lamps are effective.

There are a few exceptions but people in general - it is human nature - do not take care of things in general that are impending problems, they wait until they are problems. It is foolish to think that manufacturers would add equipment to their cars if they weren't required (mandated) or necessary. It is necessary to provide warning lights, because otherwise people would claim, as they still try to do, that failure of ______ is not their fault because they didn't "know".

Systems are now on cars because it is now much cheaper to have them. If an owner doesn't change his oil for 25,000 miles or whatever the interval required is and the engine begins knocking, he won't have a factory claim because they system knows it. People are always trying to make the big, bad manufacturer pay for their failures inasmuch as folks say they can't get a dealer to fix the problem they present for service. I find that in many cases to be a bit of a stretch quite frankly because with J.D. Power and factory requirements for a favourable Customer Satisfaction (CSI) rating, there is too much incentive for a dealer to fix the problem rather than ignore it.

A point in fact: Many people think dealers are trying to "save money" by not fixing cars. That is false on the face of it. Dealers are not given a reward or an incentive to not fix vehicles. That is what they are charged to do by their Dealer Service Agreement. The must repair vehicles properly, however and there exists many incentives to do that. Repaired right the first time is of paramount importance. Part of their Franchise Agreement is that they must train and employ technicians qualified to repair their vehicles properly. It costs a lot of money to get a technician in the bay, but it must be this way.

Manufacturers have the J1962 connector and the systems for OBDII on vehicles on the vehicle because the Federal Government says they have to. They have no choice. The displays that OBDII has must conform to Emissions Standards, so if you have a beef with that, blame the California Air Resource Board (CARB) and the Federal Government. That is where much of the requirements come from.

But also blame a lot of vehicle owners for driving rolling toilets. People in general do not perform basic preventative maintenance because they are cheap. I have heard people say that vehicles "shouldn't need" oil changes so often, they should design them better. Or "they design these things to fail". Not so. Why would a manufacturer want to be known as unreliable? Every manufacturer of automobiles today has improved their quality dramatically over the years and cars are more reliable now than they have ever been. Most people aren't having ball joints replaced regularly, it is a higher mileage replacement now. Valve grind operations (common term: valve job) are more rare than commonplace but at one time they were done about every 30,000 miles or so.

Light bulbs last longer, as do water pumps, engines, serpentine belts, radiators, hoses, brake pads, heater cores and other parts. That does not however mean that there will be no failures. It may interest you to know that while a manufacturer engineers vehicles, they do not necessarily build all of the components. They are contracted out to part-supplying companies such as Visteon and Johnson controls, off the top of my head.

When a part fails, the dealer is required to diagnose the fault and repair it. When the dealer replaces a
failed part within the warranty period for that part, they will make a claim to the manufacturer for that part. The manufacturer will possibly ask for the part back, or in the case of multiple failures, they will ask for all of the failed parts back. Perhaps they now have to redesign that part and, depending on the system, it may trigger a Recall.

Tire Pressure Monitoring Systems are on vehicles because people don't check tire pressures. If they did, Ford probably wouldn't have replaced as many tires as they did because one common thread in the Explorer rollover incident was improper inflation. So now you have a light for that in many cases. When someone sued a manufacturer due to injuries in an accident, claiming "the vehicle should have been safer", airbags and seatbelts (in reverse order) were the result. There's a light for that system, but, especially if the warranty has run out, that light will in most cases stay on if significant cost is involved. People will drive around for ages with the MIL on (CEL, Engine) if they think the car "drives fine". When the manufacturer is presented with a vehicle like that for warranty purposes, it is known how many drive cycles the fault was present for. It may surprise you to know - or not - that some people have driven a vehicle with a serious fault for hundreds of drive cycles causing other damage and demanded the Factory to pay the add-on claim.

One of the reasons manufacturers make information such as Engine Management System (EMS) on the difficult side to get is they want someone with the proper knowledge to fix it. They know they can't fix all of the cars all of the time (except they have to during the warranty period) but they /do/ want a properly trained technician to effect the repairs. A properly trained technician knows that in most cases, with few exceptions, that one part generally fixes a given fault. They know this because the guy who engineered the system know this and the factory repair manual will help trace the fault to something you may have seen me post about, the Root Cause.

History has shown in most cases that a vehicle with a Start/Charge system fault, say a No Crank condition, will not need a battery and and alternator. It will be one or the other. The battery was weak and cannot accept a charge so it needs to be replaced. The alternator is fine. The alternator failed and did not replenish the battery hence, overnight the battery was too low to crank in the morning. Replace the alternator and charge the battery.

The problem with most consumers is, when this situation presents, they want both things replaced because they do not want to have to replace the battery later. A battery is a "wearable" item though so it is not going to be easy to make the argument for factory subsidised replacement. History has also shown that when a vehicle is out of warranty, customers only want to pay for the failed part, nothing more. Why should it be any different just because their wallet is involved?

If you want to blame somebody, blame Volvo. Volvo was the producer of the safest cars in the world, really. They were at the forefront of such things as laminated glass, three-point safety belts, Side Impact Protection Systems, Personal Car Communicator with heartbeat sensor to determine if someone is hiding in the car, and Collision Warning and Brake Support, to name a few. There are Warning Lamps for some or all of those systems.

Volvo gets my respect for, since 1964 about, installing cunifer brake lines (Nickle/Copper) in their vehicles because they determined that steel and other materials were insufficient to last without corroding, causing failures. GM vehicles have had an inordinate number of failures of brake lines (as compared to other manufacturers, even combined) for which NHSTA is investigating. Perhaps soon you will see another light soon or message in a Driver Information Center (DIC), Change Brake Fluid. I know you'll celebrate that one as well as the others. ;-p