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kirbyte
join:2014-11-06

kirbyte

Member

Left with WISP as only option, but they didn't seem too helpful

Hey guys!

My family recently moved a little ways out to a rural area from a much more populated one. There's no cable. There is Frontier DSL but we found out there are unfortunately no more ports available. We thought we might have had hope getting cable out here with MegaPath suggesting it was possible but that was a no-go. Satellite is far too expensive and capped and we would like to game. We're currently stuck on Verizon's 4G service which is satisfactory to an extent but still has ridiculous caps and is also ridiculously expensive ($150 for 40GB... and this is being touted as a home solution...). It's also not perfect for games, though it works well enough.

Luckily there is a WISP right across the street from us. Their tower however isn't near their business and is about 3.33 miles out (if I've read the antenna map correctly). This means trees are a big problem.

When we first moved here we had them come over to test the connection as we were hoping they could provide service to us. Unfortunately, they found that only an intermittent one-bar signal came up during their tests. This is when we decided we may as well try any other potential option. A few months of calls and tests and well... I think we're stuck with Verizon or the WISP.

We would vastly prefer the WISP as unlimited internet is an invaluable thing to have (and should be something everyone has access to, but that's a different subject). The greatly lowered costs and potentially lower pings in games would also be very nice. Not to mention being able to update system software security and the like without cutting into the cap...

Rambling aside, the WISP made it seem like they wouldn't be able to provide service to us. I've talked to people on another forum and they said it would probably be possible to get service. As a matter of fact, a nearby neighbor has their own tower specifically for this service. I am unsure why they didn't want to suggest anything of the sort to us when it seems like this should be possible.

However, our family is on a smaller budget and can't afford to make our own tower (the neighbors said it was over $600 or so... possibly more). From what I've read an antenna mast is the way to go in this situation. I'm just not sure what height, materials, and general precautions would need to be taken to complete this project. The cheapest solution that doesn't compromise safety or cause any damages is ideally what we're looking for.

If this isn't something the WISP is comfortable with or something then I suppose that's fine. Otherwise, I'm not sure why they wouldn't bring up the possibility (unless this really isn't a viable setup).

Finally, my dad has basic skills when it comes to installing and setting up home improvement projects and I would be more than happy to help get this up and running (I wouldn't be undertaking this myself... that's an accident waiting to happen ).

Sorry for the wall o' text. Been getting kinda frustrated at the internet situation over in this rural area. Thanks for listening!

If this is in the wrong place, I apologize. I tried to find the correct forum but wasn't sure if this was it.
wirelessdog
join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD

wirelessdog

Member

To put it bluntly, you are at their mercy. They don't have to provide you with service and if they don't want to, think it is too much work, or think you whine too much, they probably won't install service.

This is the wild west of broadband.

If they really had barely existent, intermittent signal, they made the right call by telling you service is unavailable.

If you don't have the money for the construction of what you call a tower (if it is really a tower there is no way it happened for $600 - add a zero to that) then you really are stuck.

Rohn makes a 50 or 50' telescoping mast that requires guy wires. You could nicely ask them if that height would help. The problem is, I doubt they would want to service something that is going to be darn near impossible to get to once it is in the air.

Good luck, you're going to need it.
LLigetfa
join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON

LLigetfa to kirbyte

Member

to kirbyte
wirelessdog is talking about commercial grade towers when tossing about a $6000 figure. Then again many WISPs won't want to climb a $600 death trap. It seems moot however since you find $600 to be too expensive. Depending on the house construction, it might be possible to do a bracketed tower against the gable end of a multi-storey home for around $1200. If however, you need to get away from the house to find a better line of sight, then you are getting into the thousands.

Years ago, I trenched in 300 feet of CAT5 cable to get beyond some trees rather than have to get above them. Years later I took my chainsaw and cut the needed swath to reach another (faster) tower. Seems though that most everyone wants cheap and easy... and if you come across that way to the WISP, they will never suggest alternatives that are neither cheap nor easy.
kirbyte
join:2014-11-06

kirbyte

Member

In all honesty, I think I phrased the title poorly. It's not so much that they didn't seem helpful but rather they didn't suggest any alternatives. We've only spoken to them twice 3-4 months ago (and by we I mean my parents) so I don't think we've come off as pushy (or at least I hope not). My parents aren't as understanding of wireless internet limitations so that may have played a role in their discussions.

Our neighbor's structure is just built specifically for their antenna. I'm still learning about the terminology of this stuff so it may not classify as a tower heh.

Yeah, we're a bit low on funds. If we remove the Verizon data though we can probably have a bit more for setting something up. With that said, we are (or at least I am) willing to put in quite a bit of effort if it means having unlimited internet again. I recognize that this may not be easy.

I'll keep in mind the Rohn mast. Is servicing this kind of setup the main problem? I want to make sure I know the main issues before politely asking about options so they know I'm not trying to be inconsiderate of their services. I've dealt with enough customers to know how hard it can be when someone expects the impossible.
wirelessdog
join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD

wirelessdog to LLigetfa

Member

to LLigetfa
said by LLigetfa:

wirelessdog is talking about commercial grade towers when tossing about a $6000 figure.

Actually no. I was referring to a Trylon lightweight tower which is hardly commercial.

A bracketed Rohn 25 or 45 is going to be what 60' tops (and I would never climb a bracketed tower over 40') and even with that you are looking at a minimum of $1200 in materials to do it right.

A freestanding BX tower is again going to be far beyond $600.

So, do tell, what is a "$600 death trap"???
LLigetfa
join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON

LLigetfa

Member

said by wirelessdog:

So, do tell, what is a "$600 death trap"???

A TACO Wade Delhi Gold Nugget tower. I've seen some WISPs mount them on a ranch style hip roof with the top bracket 10 feet off the ground and then another 30 feet unsupported. OMG!

I would only use those bracketed to a gable end and then only extending less than 10 feet past the peak.

You can probably get a 40 foot DMX with wall brackets for around $1200. Of course if you want it to be freestanding, you'll need to set it into at least a yard of concrete.

Anyway... we have no idea how much tower the OP needs to get a decent signal.
wirelessdog
join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD

wirelessdog

Member

I assume 85' to be a minimum but thats just me.
bcltoys
join:2008-07-21

bcltoys to kirbyte

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to kirbyte
Do wisp's use repeater's and what's the typical usable range.

TheMarchHare
@spcsdns.net

TheMarchHare to kirbyte

Anon

to kirbyte
A 35 foot freestanding Rohn 25G tower can be assembled from four 10 foot sections with the bottom half of the bottom section buried in five foot of reinforced concrete. That configuration is minimum rated for 85 mph winds without guys or any house bracketing. Mine came through a 110 mph hurricane without any damage. It is the cheapest commercial grade tower of that type I can think of. Someone with good DIY skills and solid common sense can put one up without too much difficulty.
wirelessdog
join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD

wirelessdog

Member

These are the types of posts that get people killed. It is wrong on so many levels I don't know where to start.
Jim_in_VA (banned)
join:2004-07-11
Cobbs Creek, VA

Jim_in_VA (banned)

Member

start with level one
wirelessdog
join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD

wirelessdog

Member

Ok. You asked.

First, I have never seen Rohn provide any specs on a 25g that do not include the top section. The top section is required for the structural integrity of the tower. So the suggestion to put up four 10 foot sections is bad.

Lets assume that the poster just made a typo and we are going to build the tower properly at 35'.

The next issue is, the chances of 35' clearing the trees is slim to none and slim just left. If the WISP had tested at ground level with moderately bad signal, perhaps it would make the difference. In this case, my position is that the chances of 35' making the difference between non-existent and acceptable signal are slim especially this time of year when the proper signal needs to be that much more due to less tree foilage in most areas this time of year.

The next issue, the poster obviously pulled those wind ratings out of their ass.
Rohn only posts 70, 80, and 90mph wind loadings. Lets split the difference between 80 and 90mph. Oops, we can't. See at 70mph the no-ice wind load rating on a free-standing Rohn 25g tower is 3.6 ft2 at 80mph it drops to 1.4ft2 and at 90mph there is no allowable load on the tower at all - it will fold at least according to Rohn.

Lets talk about what those antenna sizes mean:

At 35' 70mph allowable antenna size is 3.6 ft2. A Ubiquiti Nanostation Loco - arguably the smallest antenna that could be used in a WISP scenario is 3.86ft2 - can't do it.

Jim likes the Parabolic Dish approach - this is a more antiquated approach but we'll adapt for the WISP scenario for the sake of this discussion. A small 17dbi grid by Laird is rated for 3.33ft' So... technically you could mount a small 17dbi grid antenna and survive 70mph wind. Oops, we forgot to add in the cable, mounting bracket, etc. Guess that approach is out as well.

Lastly, I would hardly consider a Rohn 25g to be a "commercial grade" tower. The is misleading at best. Certainly at 35' with no guy wires it would be anything but "commercial grade"

Building your own tower is like wiring your own house. If you have adequate experience and knowledge it can turn out ok. If you don't it can be deadly. Notice I said "can be". There are plenty of examples of things done wrong that still work today. It certainly doesn't make it any better or safer.

To the OP: If you are going to do this, do it right.
Jim_in_VA (banned)
join:2004-07-11
Cobbs Creek, VA

3 edits

Jim_in_VA (banned)

Member

said by wirelessdog:

Jim likes the Parabolic Dish approach - this is a more antiquated approach but we'll adapt for the WISP scenario for the sake of this discussion. A small 17dbi grid by Laird is rated for 3.33ft' So... technically you could mount a small 17dbi grid antenna and survive 70mph wind. Oops, we forgot to add in the cable, mounting bracket, etc. Guess that approach is out as well.

no where have I suggested a DISH ...I've only suggested a GRID
wirelessdog
join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD

wirelessdog

Member

Typo. I meant grid. A parabolic dish would have stupid amounts of wind load.
Jim_in_VA (banned)
join:2004-07-11
Cobbs Creek, VA

2 edits

Jim_in_VA (banned)

Member

one time we agree John
raytaylor
join:2009-07-28

raytaylor to kirbyte

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to kirbyte
Ooooh
Grid rules me out.

I never use them anymore - ubnt dishes only (nanobeam, not airgrid) for dual polarity.
Jeffo
join:2009-08-25
Downing, WI

Jeffo to kirbyte

Member

to kirbyte
How did they test their signal strength at your house? Did they test using a decent antenna?

Did they take a high gain antenna up on your roof? If not, this might be cheaper and easier than the advice being thrown out.
LLigetfa
join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON

LLigetfa

Member

said by Jeffo:

...this might be cheaper and easier than the advice being thrown out.

We give free advice. Can't get any cheaper than that.
kirbyte
join:2014-11-06

kirbyte

Member

Sorry for the long delay in response.

Once again, Frontier seems to be saying it's available at my house with its own dedicated 6Mbps line (supposedly not effected by neighbors bandwidth usage). This is in comparison to their previous speed claim of 1.5Mbps. I don't know what to make of it but I certainly don't have my hopes up after every potential internet provider letting us down. It would be nice though.

Then after looking into Blue Mountain Internet (who I seemed to have missed in my mass-calling to every provider I could find), their availability checker shows cable as something we can get. I'm wondering if this is the same cable that MegaPath supposedly could provide (but inevitably couldn't due to "Site is not serviceable - per vendor not in vendor footprint"). What vendor are they referring to and would it be possible to get service directly through them? I don't know, but I've asked BMI about their service and am currently waiting on a response.

I've also been looking into FreedomPop. They have a really cheap service through the Sprint network that's supposedly unlimited (after the first GB, throttled to 3G speeds). Sprint in our area is 3G only, but it would be enough to use that for buffering of vids and downloads while paying for less data on Verizon's LTE to use only for gaming. This is assuming the quality of Sprint in our area is good enough and that FreedomPop wouldn't kill the service for excessive usage. I've looked around but I'm still not sure if using FreedomPop beyond whatever they may call excessive has gotten people's service cancelled.

I'll get back to the WISP if the need be. Past experience says it will indeed need be.
wirelessdog
join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD

wirelessdog

Member

Megapath shows cable availability everywhere. I'm sure BMI is running on the same system.
kirbyte
join:2014-11-06

kirbyte

Member

Like everywhere everywhere? What's the reasoning in doing that if they just get a bunch of calls from people who realistically can't get it and wind up wasting resources dealing with these "vendors" just to have to tell customers that it really isn't available there? It seems like a waste of money.
wirelessdog
join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD

wirelessdog

Member

No idea but they do that with DSL as well. I've never understood the reasoning behind that.
kirbyte
join:2014-11-06

kirbyte

Member

Actually since I last checked a few months ago Sprint has moved to 4G in our area! Combined with their unlimited data plans (which I didn't even know they started until recently), we actually have an alternative if (when) Frontier doesn't come through for us.

Most of my thanks goes to T-Mobile for bringing the pressure on them though.

WHT
join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX

WHT to wirelessdog

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to wirelessdog
said by wirelessdog:

First, I have never seen Rohn provide any specs on a 25g that do not include the top section. The top section is required for the structural integrity of the tower. So the suggestion to put up four 10 foot sections is bad.

All the drawings I've seen for Rohn do have a top section but to say it is necessary for structural integrity is doubtful.

The specs for 25 say up to 20 feet above a eaves mount and that is for minimum loading. Stacking the third section just before adding guys at 35 feet - 4 sections with half of the first into concrete, is kinda hairy.