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nightdesigns
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join:2002-05-31
AZ

nightdesigns

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[Plumbing] My quest for a cold(ish) shower

One of the things they don't tell you when you move to AZ is that in the summer the cold water supply temp is 95+ degrees for about 3 months and during this time all I want is a cold(ish) shower. With summer right around the corner, I'm preparing.

Last year I started the quest and did pretty well using a camp shower and a bucket that I filled with water a couple of hours prior. While it worked, the flow was low and I equated it to taking a shower with a squirt gun.

This year I would like to get the flow closer to a standard shower head (2.5GPM). I'm figuring if I fill the tub that should give me enough volume to run it for a while. I just need help figuring out what type of pump I need and to hook it up to a shower head. If I can hook it up to the existing shower head with a "T", all the better!

For logistics, I have 2 options. Option 1: is my master bath with a separate tub/shower that are next to each other. I can fill the tub and use the shower. Or option 2 is a combo tub/shower where the water would recirculate. I know for either situation that I would need to fill the tub at least a few hours prior to get enough drop in temperature. I prefer 80-85 degrees, but really, anything less than the supply temperature is good.

You guys have been very helpful in the past, so I turn to you once again. Thanks!

garys_2k
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join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

garys_2k

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Recirculate shower water? Does that mean trying to rinse with the soapy water you just cleaned yourself with? Ewwwwww!

Anyway, any decent utility pump ought to be enough to supply the shower head, here's a 1/3 hp that ought to do: »www.homedepot.com/p/Ever ··· 04478351

I'd add a valve at the existing shower's inlet to select between pumped tub water and regular house water and let whatever water I used run down the drain.
OldCableGuy (banned)
join:2014-12-19

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How big of a tub is your source? I sure hope you don't mean the tub you're standing in. I hope you mean like a barrel or something? If it's a 2.5 GPM head you're gonna need a big barrel, as a 10 minute shower would be 25 gallons.

pende_tim
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Selbyville, DE

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Why not just take a bath? Fill the tub a few hours before you need it, let the A/C cool it down and then jump in.

However with the water problems in most of the SouthWest, do you really want to waste a tub full of water?

KA0OUV
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join:2010-02-17
Jefferson City, MO

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You may want to look at a water chiller and an insulated cold water tank:

»www.hydrogalaxy.com/hydr ··· -1-2-hp/

From poking at the web, it looks like the plumbers in that part of the country.

When I hit the google with 'water chiller' a lot of systems and price points popped up, including one that would supply a setup like you are discussing.

Good Luck!

Tim [KA0OUV]
TheMG
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How about burying a storage tank a few feet into the ground? I'm assuming the temperature is probably quite a bit cooler underground than at the surface. About 4 feet down or more.

If the tank is able to handle household water pressure you could even plumb it to feed the shower directly and need no pump or anything else. Water sitting in the underground tank while the shower is not being used would cool down to ground temperature.
joewho
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join:2004-08-20
Dundee, IL

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I used to live near white hills, underground tank. Temp wasn't a problem, but the water was. Are you in an area where Caliche is present? For the amount of trouble it is, I would also consider underground storage, if it isn't already. Another option is to move the above ground tank into northern shade and insulating it. Not many options when you live in a desert. Dry heat, my ass. lol. Depending on the structure you live in, you may be able to move the tank next to the house, build a small structure around it, insulate and punch a hole in the wall of the house to cool it. If it's in the direct sun, which we don't know, just getting into shade will help. Do you get the local guy to go to the well and fill it for you, like I did?
Do you have a cheap source of Ice? Drop it in.

Camelot One
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Couldn't you solve the entire problem by just adding an unplugged water heater to the cold water line? The warm supply would cool in the tank, giving you water nearer to your room temperature.

garys_2k
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join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

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True, maybe strip off the tank's insulation so it cools off faster. Plus, it would be more sanitary as dust, etc. won't fall into the water and contaminate it.
LittleBill
join:2013-05-24

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said by Camelot One:

Couldn't you solve the entire problem by just adding an unplugged water heater to the cold water line? The warm supply would cool in the tank, giving you water nearer to your room temperature.

i would bury it in the ground too, poor man geo thermal

nunya
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O Fallon, MO

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I know the water lines are pretty shallow there. I wonder if burying the service lateral deeper would make any difference at all? Probably not enough to justify the expense.

ArgMeMatey
join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI

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Drill a couple of holes in the side of your fridge, kegerator, etc. Get a coil of copper tubing and bend it into a helix or whatever shape works best.

Add appropriate fittings. Add insulated stainless or glass-lined storage tank (such as an unused water heater). Add circulation pump and thermostat. And so on.

»www.homedepot.com/p/Cerr ··· c1vZbuyt

ThisHere
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Hi. Just wondering if you have a tanked water heater system. If so can you cut the heat supply off and just let the water flow? I know if it is gas you just have to cut off the gas supply. When it gets cooler again you can light the pilot. If the directions for that aren't on the unit itself you may be able to find it online through manufacturer information. But once the water stops heating it cools. You should at least be able to have room temperature water. It sounds like the main supply gives enough heat.
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said by ArgMeMatey:

Drill a couple of holes in the side of your fridge, kegerator, etc. Get a coil of copper tubing and bend it into a helix or whatever shape works best.

If you're going to go through all that trouble why not just pick up a dedicated water chiller?

I don't think a normal refrigerator would have the cooling capacity to keep up with that copper coil idea. Might cause the temperature inside the fridge to rise and spoil food.

tschmidt
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Don't know how much spare room you have in the conditioned space space or what temperate you keep the house. A simple solution is to plumb an uninsulated storage tank into the cold water supply. The creates a passive system where the water will equalize to air temperate.

A small gas water heater is pretty cheap and offers a lot of surface area once you strip off the insulation and remove the flue.

If you want water temperature lower then inside air will need to use some form of active system.

/tom

ArgMeMatey
join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI

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said by TheMG:

I don't think a normal refrigerator would have the cooling capacity to keep up with that copper coil idea. Might cause the temperature inside the fridge to rise and spoil food.

Maybe so. I'm no pro. Just an idea for a cheap "Red Green" style experiment.

If one wants to spend big money, one does not need to ask online, one just hires an experienced pro ... for example, a plumber friend of mine in AZ is installing a patio with embedded PEX for chilled water for a customer.

nightdesigns
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nightdesigns

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Thanks for all the replies. I'm not looking to do a major re-plumbing job. I think any in-ground storage would have to be considerably deeper here than a few feet. The water main is about 6' under ground and that is still 90+ degrees.

Thank you for the link to the water pump at HD. That looks like a good start. I see it is rated for 1920 GPH which is way more than what is needed for a shower head. Any issues running a pump like that with a restriction (shower head) at the end of the line? It would also have about a 6' lift which will reduce the flow somewhat.

And for those of you who asked, the tub is a garden tub, 40-50 gallon. At 2.5 GPM, that should get a decent length of shower in.
TheMG
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said by ArgMeMatey:

If one wants to spend big money

Water chiller units can be picked up for under $500. These are the type of unit that are usually installed under the sink to provide a cold drinking water tap.

With the help of a small recirculating pump one of these units could easily be used to cool down a water storage tank.

Whole thing including a tank, pump, and misc plumbing supplies could probably be done DIY for under $1000.

nunya
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Look for a bilge pump. The kind that go in a boat. They are 12V though. We used to have an old farm house with no running water and used one of these for years.

PSWired
join:2006-03-26
Annapolis, MD

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A big aquarium powerhead would do the trick as well. They're pretty cheap. Or a pond pump.

If you go with a 120v pump, make sure you are using a tested GFCI receptacle to power it.

pende_tim
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Selbyville, DE

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Since you are in a dry climate and the RH is fairly low, how about a fine spray shower head and a small fan?

Think swamp cooler.

Msradell
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Louisville, KY

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said by PSWired:

A big aquarium powerhead would do the trick as well. They're pretty cheap. Or a pond pump.

If you go with a 120v pump, make sure you are using a tested GFCI receptacle to power it.

It's doubtful that either one of those options would work very well because they are designed to generate any pressure! They have large clearances around the impeller to allow for debris to pass without damage and thus will not build significant pressure nor operate with much head pressure.

PSWired
join:2006-03-26
Annapolis, MD

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There are powerheads designed for this application, and pond pumps too. I'm sure you could use the "get the biggest one possible" option, but you can also look for the kind designed to be paired with higher pressure devices such as a downdraft protein skimmer or a mechanical filter. Both of these have high(er) head pressures than normal circulating pumps. Look for equipment designed for use with saltwater aquariums. The filtration is usually more complex.

That said, you're not going to be able to use it with a regular low-flow shower head that's designed to flow a couple GPM at 60 PSI. You'll need a different diffuser.
LittleBill
join:2013-05-24

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»www.harborfreight.com/1- ··· 302.html

they are called shallow well pumps

pende_tim
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Selbyville, DE

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said by nightdesigns:

just need help figuring out what type of pump I need and to hook it up to a shower head. If I can hook it up to the existing shower head with a "T", all the

If you do use a T of some style on the shower head, watch out for the danger of backflow into your drinking water. Normally street pressure will exceeded a small pump's pressure and the cold water valve will be off, but "shift happens".

Sly
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Tennessee

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said by pende_tim:

Since you are in a dry climate and the RH is fairly low, how about a fine spray shower head and a small fan?

Think swamp cooler.

Exactly. If the humidity is low enough you can get quite cool in the desert doing this.

Open a window to keep the humidity low and then use a shower head with a very fine mist. Mount the shower head up high for the greatest effect and place an exhaust fan in the window to carry the humid air out.

garys_2k
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Farmington, MI

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said by tschmidt:

Don't know how much spare room you have in the conditioned space space or what temperate you keep the house. A simple solution is to plumb an uninsulated storage tank into the cold water supply. The creates a passive system where the water will equalize to air temperate.

A small gas water heater is pretty cheap and offers a lot of surface area once you strip off the insulation and remove the flue.

I still think this is the best idea. No pumps needed, water stays sanitary and much less of a hack job. Remember: pumps will need to be started and stopped when you go in and out of the shower, they don't do well dead headed (run with the outlet closed off) and could present wiring/grounding concerns (especially the switch, handling with wet hands).

Adding a repurposed hot water tank would be the simplest and most day to day friendly. Turn on the water as usual, the tank supplies the cooled water and just shower. No muss, no fuss and no messing around with gimmicks.

cowboyro
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CT

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said by tschmidt:

A simple solution is to plumb an uninsulated storage tank into the cold water supply. The creates a passive system where the water will equalize to air temperate.

Not a good idea at all if the incoming water is warm. Bacteria can grow in short time in lukewarm water.

garys_2k
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Farmington, MI

garys_2k

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said by cowboyro:

Not a good idea at all if the incoming water is warm. Bacteria can grow in short time in lukewarm water.

True for ANY tank of water and more so for an unpressurized tank that is open to the air (dust can carry in more bacteria). Unless the OP wants to invest in a demand type chiller that can cool the water as it runs up to the shower head he's going to need a tank, and a closed one would be safer.

tschmidt
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said by cowboyro:

Bacteria can grow in short time in lukewarm water.

True enough, but given I assume this is chlorinated city water that is already at 95F, do you really think cooling the water down to 75-80F presents a health hazard?

/tom