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norwegian
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join:2005-02-15
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norwegian to wutsinterweb3

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Re: If I want an i5 build...


The parts site does not keep prices updated but is a good source of listing parts for review but can be $200 out in total pricing once you source a retail site for buying parts.

Knowing what you want now is a game of just keeping an eye out for those specials that come along. Online sites change prices frequently.

Looks like a good build list though.

wutsinterweb3
End Citizen's United
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join:2014-08-26
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wutsinterweb3

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This is another board I am considering, but I'm confused by what looks like 2 USB external ports on the board proper beside that SATA ports, and it looks like it only has 2 SATA? And why does it have so many power connectors, my SMPS is only a 620 watt Seasonic and it isn't officially approved for Haswell, so I wonder about that too.

OOPS, forgot to put the link for the other board:

»www.newegg.com/Product/P ··· 13128704

The board is ultra complicated, I'm torn about that, sure it's full of features, but it's more stuff to go wrong too, and I'm confused by some of it, such as why it has both an ATX and an EPS, and also a PEG connector, WTH?
JoelC707
Premium Member
join:2002-07-09
Lanett, AL

JoelC707

Premium Member

Looking at the pics, here's what the backplate has starting from the left.

4x USB 2.0 ports in a single stack
VGA/DVI ports
Optical/HDMI/DP Ports
Combo kb/mouse PS/2 port and 2x USB 3.0 ports
1x network and 2x USB 3.0 ports
6x 1/4" TRS jacks for audio

That's about a standard compliment of ports on the back though admittedly the location of the PS/2 port is odd.

On the inside edge I see 2x USB 2.0 ports. Those are a nice addition for devices that don't offer a header hookup. Most USB internal devices will connect with a header like the front panel ports will but the inclusion of those "external" ports on the inside is quite useful. They could also be used in some server related examples to boot the OS from a USB stick and leave the stick inside the computer (leaving any attached drives for bulk storage) instead of having it hang off the back where it can get broken off or lost/stolen.

There are 6x SATA ports. There's the normal two stack but the other larger stack is actually an M.2 connector. Only the bottom one really looks like an M.2 port because of that additional rectangle connector, the top one is likely not a true M.2 port. There are actually 4x SATA ports there that could be used individually just like regular ports and ignore the M.2 part if you want.

You're right it does have an additional PEG 6-pin connector right there at the first PCIe x16 slot. Some high end boards will do that to source the slot power from the dedicated PEG lines instead of trying to pull 75W or more from the 24-pin motherboard connector and the traces can be shorter then too (less voltage loss).

Other than that it looks like a good build. The only thing I would recommend is this board we're discussing here does not have an Intel NIC, it has a KILLER NIC. Supposedly those are better for gaming and offer improved whatevers, don't drink the koolaid. I personally think they are just a fad but then again they've been around for several years now so shrug? One other thing to keep in mind is most Atheros NICs will NOT have built-in drivers on Windows. My Gigabyte Z77 board doesn't and it annoys me every time I reinstall Windows and have to hunt down my USB stick with the drivers on it before I can do anything. Realtek and Intel are more likely to have built-in drivers.

wutsinterweb3
End Citizen's United
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join:2014-08-26
USA

2 edits

wutsinterweb3

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I watched a review/ walk thru on that board, I am concluding it isn't for me because I know too little about fancy BIOS settings, unless someone here can help me learn that stuff. Basically, I understand to some extent RAM latency, and RAM speed related to the old socket 939 system of AMD, but I haven't overclocked since then. I am a little intimidated and need help finding sites and having people hold hand a little bit where I'm dazed and confused about the actual procedure to overclock on Haswell/Devil's Canyon. Since it might be a while before I can afford the aftermarket cooler, I will have some time to spend on learning about it.

In a nutshell, how does one overclock in this platform, what are the CPU and RAM and timing settings, and can some of you advise a guy whose a noob to this? What forums do you suggest and what walk through/lesson sites do you suggest, I'll google, but you guys with seasoned knowledge might be able to de-caveat me to better sites?

Looks like I'll have to wait until the start of the next month to get the mainboard/CPU/RAM, unless there's a sale on one or two of them anyways. In all honesty, I am agonizing over whether I could come up to speed to justify getting that GIGABYTE Z97X-SOC Force board, it seems like a lot more board for a little bit more money than the ASUS z97 Pro, but is it really?

EDIT: I just read someone's review on newegg that the PWM on that Gigabyte board is only 4 phase? On such an elaborate board? Sounds like a non starter if that is true.

On the other hand, some reviews of the ASUS Z97 Pro sound bad, people complaining about having lack of access to warranty service? I remember back in the day that ASUS was the gold standard for warranty backup. Have they gone downhill? I guess it could be attributed to clueless builders, but is it?
wutsinterweb3

wutsinterweb3

Premium Member

I *am* nervous about getting this ASUS Z97 Pro board because there are a LOT of very bad reviews, seems the board either arrives and runs great, or it's DOA, or fails after 30 days. And it seems that Contacting ASUS and getting support is a bear now, why don't they hire enough people to answer the phones, being on hold for over an hour and then getting hung up on, and that happening repeatedly is totally unacceptable. ASUS used to be fantastic, what the heck is going on with them?

Anyone here have trouble with an ASUS board? Anyone here have trouble getting support from them?

For many of you, a build is a regular thing, some of you build multiple systems a year, but this is my first build in 4 years and I don't even have the budget to do it all within one year, so this is a big deal. Would any of you suggest avoiding ASUS, or are they still #1?
tdumaine
Premium Member
join:2004-03-14
Seattle, WA

tdumaine

Premium Member

Unless you are insistent on intel for the cpu, you might want to look at the specs and prices on AMD's FX 8320 or 8350. 8 cores, cheaper, and walks all over i5's

wutsinterweb3
End Citizen's United
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wutsinterweb3

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Interesting, I thought popular wisdom was that Intel Core processors were generally more powerful than AMD. Don't the AMD processors also use more electricity, or no? Why would I need 8 cores over 4 cores, what activities of mine would utilize them?

Activities:

Very heavy browsing (having 2 or 3 different brands of browser with at least 10 to 30 tabs open each.

Streaming downloads including Kodi (XBMC), Podcasts, and the other usual suspects.

Maybe some time in the future photo editing if I get a decent DSLR (a goal of mine).

Light to medium occasional gaming by my large assortment of early teenage nephews whose parents won't indulge them with a gamer build, but who like their cool uncle who understands them better (they vary in age from elementary to early high school, all good kids). I hope to get a gaming video card some time in the future so I can indulge them.

If my income increases, at some time in the future I *may* return to cancer/disease research crunching. Right now I can't afford the electric bill, and keeping my electric bill down is an important consideration.

Various office apps, and perhaps in the future some science/math apps, nothing too advanced.

Some light programming work with the usual languages.

Possible multi boot with SuSE and KDE.

Guitar music work of various forms, just now exploring that.

Current monitor is a cheap 23.5" screen, hope for a 27" screen some day in the future, maybe IPS, don't see the need for a huge screen or multiple screens at the moment, no room in my apartment.

Data storage and sharing.

Maybe one day (though I doubt it) coin mining?

Can't think of what else, but I don't see having more than 4 cores will offer me any advantages and it would use more juice. I recently moved to another apartment in the same building (as a favor to owner) and my utilities have doubled as a result, which has been a bitter pill to swallow, my income is a fraction of most of the rest of folks here, not complaining, but it's an important consideration nonetheless.

I appreciate the input, but I need to hear from others asserting the same thing (that I'd get more benefit from an AMD FX processor). Frankly, I'm weary of what I feel is the lack of stability in AMD platforms, I've been using AMD products for, what, over a decade and a half and while I still fondly remember the socket 939 fun days, I am ready for Intel again. My laptop is an Intel i5, it's the first Intel box I've had since the mid 90's. I need a lot more exortation to give up on moving to Intel now.

I'll do some looking however, I've got at least a couple weeks left to cogitate and wait for sales.

Incidentally, I also dislike the AMD pin gride array socket system, I'm aching to go with the Intel Core socket system that locks the processor down with a claimp. I've had AMD processors get "glued" to coolers and pull out and refuse to separate from the cooler and pins got bent, and I expect that that won't happen with the Intel Core mounting system.

Please give me more information here if you care to.
wutsinterweb3

wutsinterweb3 to tdumaine

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to tdumaine

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· Kz42uQ1Y


This fellow seems pretty clear, the Intel i5 leads, especially as far as I'd want it to.
tdumaine
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join:2004-03-14
Seattle, WA

tdumaine to wutsinterweb3

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you'll probly want the i5 for single core performance, but for what you are doing is that couple milliseconds opening office worth the extra $80ish or more?.

Never pull straight off on the cpu cooler. Even on intel. Give it a slight twist action, its much more stable that way even with the tough glued on years old paste

wutsinterweb3
End Citizen's United
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wutsinterweb3

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You said the AMD chip would "walk all over" the Intel, but that seems to be untrue. And the AMD uses more juice. Single core? The i5 has 4 cores I thought. Where would I need 8 cores versus 4? On the video the guy shows how even stuff that COULD utilize the additional cores the Intel was still faster somewhat. Where is this walking all over evidence? I appreciate your wanting to help, but giving wrong information...
JoelC707
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join:2002-07-09
Lanett, AL

JoelC707

Premium Member

said by wutsinterweb3:

Single core? The i5 has 4 cores I thought.

That's referring to work loads that only utilize a single core. In that limited case, the AMD options with faster base close speed can pull ahead but generally AMD lags behind Intel in terms of raw throughput. For general use though, you will never notice the difference between AMD and Intel and could save money going with AMD (I would go with an APU on the FM2 platform not an FX on the AM3+ platform though and then you would have a decent and better than Intel GPU included as well).

As far as AMD using more juice, yeah some of them do but TDP doesn't always translate to higher wattage. In fact the TDP is thermal displacement, meaning how hot it gets. The A10 parts tend to be 95W or 100W whereas most i5 parts are ~65W. So it will be hotter than an Intel part but it will be a moot point with a decent air cooler or water cooler.

wutsinterweb3
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wutsinterweb3

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Ah, ok. But that video review seemed to indicate, especially in the final minutes, that general purpose use was preferable on the i5. And I can't get a good cooler for a while. 65 watts is plenty less than the 95 watts. Heat is important to me, as well as electrical efficiency. Yes, I want to be able to overclock, but also to be able to run at factory speeds most of the time. Thank you for clearing that up a bit though. Admittedly, I'm kinda partial to getting an Intel build this time around. Every Intel build I've run in the past was stable while that hasn't always been the case with AMD. My first socket 939 processor (was it a 3200, I forget?) was horribly unstable especially at mild overclocks, I couldn't take it 100 MHz faster without continual BSODs. The 4800 I replaced it with was an overclocking demon, but it did decay over the years where it become progressively harder to overclock. And as I say, I like the Intel socket system better from what I see of it.
JoelC707
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join:2002-07-09
Lanett, AL

JoelC707

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I've always been a fan of AMD since the K6 days and generally always preferred them over Intel. Of course that was when AMD was actually competitive with Intel (and for a while better/faster than). I used mostly AMD systems with an occasional Intel system (socket 478 or 775), last one was a Pentium D 940 (you think the AMD systems are hot, that damn thing was a 1500W space heater LOL).

I can understand your desire for an Intel system since I had the same desire when I built my current i5-3450 system in 2011 or thereabouts. I really wanted an Intel system again (it replaced an Athlon II x2 250) and didn't care if I had to pay more to get it. Honestly though unless I'm doing something really processor intensive (handbrake video encoding for example) I don't notice any day-to-day differences over my old system (SSD excluded of course).

wutsinterweb3
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wutsinterweb3

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Ok, question here: I am typing on my Deneb 955 with 4 GB of DDR2 RAM. It also was replaced by a Heka that was quite unstable when even slightly overclocked. The only 2 dissapointing processors were that Heka and the 3200. I know processors are the luck of the draw and is affected partly by the binning they do at the fab. My perception is that the i5 is better for most uses enough so that I'd want it. I am even wondering just how much of an upgrade over my Deneb WOULD any Current AMD processor even be.

Processor heat isn't as big a deal right now, we are in one of the coldest and snowiest winters in modern CT history right now, but I live in an attic apartment that gets pretty damned hot in the summer time, I only have one small AC unit and only for the one room, and the room's door is already a problem (the door doesn't shut properly, it's warped, and they don't want to fix it, after all, I negotiated a rent payment 75 bucks lower than they ever offered anyone else becuase the landlord and neighbors like me a lot and are weary of trouble renters, so I'm not about to demand a new door, but running the AC is gonna be a real problem this coming summer, my electric bill is already twice what it was downstairs (we discovered that the house wiring was wrong and that part of my electric was going on landlord's bill). My electric bill is probably already gonna go up to 100 bucks this summer and that is gonna be hard as hell to keep up with.

I want a faster processor and much more RAM, but I don't want a higher electric bill. I also like that the Haswell processor/motherboard design has a lower powered sleep state (though my current power supply won't support it, gonna have to wait until I can get a new SMPS for that).

Perhaps I am not being totally rational, but my impression right now is that I will regret going AMD right now, and that above video seems to support my impressions.

Honestly I really wish I lived close to a MicroCenter store, but the nearest one is somewhere around NYC and I don't have a car.

What other reasons would I want to know that might shift me back to an AMD build?
JoelC707
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join:2002-07-09
Lanett, AL

JoelC707

Premium Member

said by wutsinterweb3:

Honestly I really wish I lived close to a MicroCenter store, but the nearest one is somewhere around NYC and I don't have a car.

I grew up in Atlanta and we were lucky enough to have TWO lol. Now unless I want to make the 1.5-2 hour drive back up to Atlanta, the best I have is Best Buy.

Honestly, as far as power usage goes, my new Intel build is much more efficient than anything I've had in the past. At idle it only pulls about 25W as measured by my UPS. I have been using the same power supply for a while and it almost certainly doesn't support any low power states in Ivy Bridge.

Here's the thing about the power usage though. When I personally compare power usage, one of the last systems I used was a Dell Precision 690 (dual quad core Xeon, basically a low end server) and it pulled ~300w at idle. I use that since nothing I have will pull more power than that.

At my power rate (about 12c per kWh), that's $25.92 a month if left on 24/7. The 25W of my current system would only cost $2.16 a month. Considering it cost me around $800 to build it, it would take me 34 months to recoup the cost of it.

If I were comparing to a different system such as one of my AMD systems that pull about ~100W at idle, things get worse (and are a good indication of most older systems). The AMD system would cost $8.64 a month. That would take me 123.5 months (over 10 years) to recoup the cost.

Only if you were comparing to a very hot system does it make sense to buy specifically on power usage alone. The latter case would not be wise. Basically what I'm saying is while yes, you need to factor in heat generation and the ability to cool it off, don't get caught up on power usage alone. On the plus side, those hot systems can help provide heat right now LOL.

wutsinterweb3
End Citizen's United
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wutsinterweb3

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I don't pay my own heatng bill, hot waster yes, but not heat.
wutsinterweb3

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wutsinterweb3

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I've ordered the ASUS Z97 Pro board and GSKill Ripjaws X Series DDR3 2400 2 x 8 GB RAM this morning. I will have to wait up to a couple weeks in order to get the processor. I'm a little concerned that some people in newegg's reviews reported boards not working or parts of boards not working, but my gut tells me that it is people who've bent the pins on the processor socket. How do you avoid doing that, and how delicate are they?

How do I flash the BIOS without the CPU installed, a new BIOS just came out.

I'm gonna get the Intel i5 Devil's Canyon 4690K processor. A good cooler will have to wait.

EDIT:

OH MAN! I paid for overnight but it hasn't even been picked up yet, there's a weather delay in Indiana. I've never paid for overnight before, and now that I do, it ain't happenin.

EDIT 2, Doh!

Well, next day shipping is new to me. I ordered with next day because I knew I'd be home today and UPS, for some reason, won't leave things at my door, but at the old door (this is an old apartment house) close to the street, and while I've never had anything stolen, I worry, I do live in a city with lots of untastey gremlins crawling around.

It left Indiana late last night after I turned in, and was in CT when I awoke! I put a note on that old front door and sure enough, FedEx was good enough to bring it right to my actual door (though they didn't knock, why not?) I'm as happy as an unharvested clam right now. Gotta wait a few weeks before I can afford the processor though.

I like the board, it isn't a flashy cartoon colored board, but has enough features that are important to have, like a power button. Also, a very cool thing: The BIOS chip is mounted in a socket so it can be replaced, awsome! I also see that there's a Front connections block where you connect the power and other cables into the block, then plug the block in, that is the greatest things since sliced bread.

Does anyone else here have this board (ASUS Z97 Pro) and care to comment about it?
wutsinterweb3

wutsinterweb3 to JoelC707

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Guys does that Fractel design case feature BOTH a power AND a Drive activity LED? I have to have both.

randavis
74 Challenger 440 4bbl
join:2000-01-19
Blue Springs, MO

randavis

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The case I have only has one led. The manual states that it can be used for power or drive activity. I can get by with that, using it for the drive activity as my computer runs 24 7.

wutsinterweb3
End Citizen's United
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wutsinterweb3

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Thank you for the reply. For me, I feel I have to have both LEDs. I wish newegg would show in specs and in advanced searches based on LEDs. That Fractal case would be almost perfect if it weren't for that, though I don't know about the weight, considering my current case is too heavy, I don't know if I want another extremely heavy case.
wutsinterweb3

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wutsinterweb3

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Got the partial upgrade/build running guys. CPU/RAM/Board/OD for now. It's awesome, thank you all so much for the advice!