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Thane_Bitter
Inquire within
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Re: "Secure" Canada Post community mailboxes breached

Well there you go, even CP can't be bothered to put the least amount of effort into security other than talk about how important it is.

Ian1
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join:2002-06-18
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said by bbbc:

People give a shit IamGimli because the changes will occur in urban areas, areas that have higher income and will be better targets for druggies.

Plenty of urban areas already have community mailboxes, and have for decades.

Although if "Brandon, MB", (population 46,000) is your idea of a roaring urban area infested with drug gangs........

No, this is "Take anecdotal evidence from a small town's experience with one or two thefts and attempt to shoe-horn it into yet another mailbox discussion."

Incidentally, I am all for keeping home delivery for those few that still have it. Take what it costs extra, divide by number of addresses, and charge it annually. Problem solved.

bbbc
join:2001-10-02
NorthAmerica

3 edits

bbbc to IamGimli

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to IamGimli
said by IamGimli :

rofl do you actually believe that BS? You think that the 70% of households in this country already on community boxes represent lower income housing? Get the F outta here! lol

Please snicker all you want, you aren't living in a city core where housing costs a shitload. See, us open-minded types (refer to one of your old posts) generally live in the city.

With a very few select exceptions older neighbourhoods aren't generally where the well-to-do go to buy property.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. The old neighborhoods in major cities are much sought-after.
said by Ian :

Plenty of urban areas already have community mailboxes, and have for decades.

New construction is far and few between in true urban areas, like city cores, with the exception being condos.

I think my fav in the mailbox discussions is this, the right-wing crowd always responds in the same manner, "Tough shit, we've been dealing with it." Well, here's a new concept get Canada Post to fix the damn issues with these supposed anecdotal thefts.

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1

Premium Member

said by bbbc:

See, us open-minded types (refer to one of your old posts) generally live in the city.

Cities like Brandon, MB?

Ever actually been there? The gentrified city-folk of Brandon not as open-minded as the multicultural folk who live in my particular suburb of Toronto.

bbbc
join:2001-10-02
NorthAmerica

bbbc

Member

said by Ian :

Ever actually been there? The gentrified city-folk of Brandon not as open-minded as the multicultural folk who live in my particular suburb of Toronto.

Have not been there. The open-minded label was created by someone else and I believe references people in the gay community.

Nonetheless, why pooh-pooh the community mailbox theft issue? You think it's easy for someone to recover from identity theft?
bbbc

bbbc to nitzguy

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to nitzguy
said by nitzguy :

bank accounts can be opened without a credit check just as an FYI.

They still pull credit whether you provide a SIN or not. They might tell you they aren't, but it's BS.

I think you're a little but paranoid for no logical reason.

Personally, I subscribe to credit reporting so that's my peace of mind...and I sleep quite well.

Okay, so I'm paranoid, but you subscribe to credit reporting. If Canada had security freezes, consumers wouldn't have to pay the credit bureaus for such protection. It's BS you have to pay to protect your credit. The bureaus should be doing a better job.

People will break into stuff...it's a matter of motive, opportunity and means...

Agree with this. If people want something they'll get it. Where I disagree is I believe the community mailboxes make for a more attractive target than someone's front door.

Ian1
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join:2002-06-18
ON

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said by bbbc:

The open-minded label was created by someone else and I believe references people in the gay community.

Open-minded means gay now? Wow. I always thought it meant open to new, and or different modes of thinking.
said by bbbc:

Nonetheless, why pooh-pooh the community mailbox theft issue? You think it's easy for someone to recover from identity theft?

I pooh-pooh it for the same reason I don't get excited any other time I read the small town crime blotters seeking higher meanings. Which is, incidentally, never.

If you want to make the argument that CMBs increase your exposure to identify theft, then you have a long road ahead, and there will be math and statistics involved, not just a slow (or is it exciting?) news day from Brandon, MB.

And if they do increase it, we can improve the security of CMBs.... Or...at a cost of Billions annually, scrap them all, and return us all to home delivery.

Considering that mail is going the way of the telegraph, guess which one I am for?
Ian1

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said by bbbc:

I think my fav in the mailbox discussions is this, the right-wing crowd always responds in the same manner, "Tough shit, we've been dealing with it." Well, here's a new concept get Canada Post to fix the damn issues with these supposed anecdotal thefts.

Actually, this is one of the few issues in Canada that probably doesn't break along Party lines. It probably breaks roughly around the 70/30 line of those without home delivery and those with it currently.

Although I think there's a "realist" component in either group. Mail is dying. There's no use denying that. I think it should be privatized. Whatever mail you would then get is whatever you contracted to get, at whatever cost.

We need to get out of, as a Country, the bulk wood-pulp delivery business. It's a bad business to be in with the current model.
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1

Premium Member

I don't know how gay rights came into this thread.

I was writing about mail boxes, not male boxes.

Regardless, my theme is that government agencies (even a "Crown Corporation" in this case) are often full of shit....

And that the assertion that these boxes are "secure" is laughable.

That's a separate issue from whether or not there should be home delivery, who should get home delivery, which is better CMB or front porch, etc.

My simple point was that it's another government assertion that does not hold up. No more, no less.

digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
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join:2000-07-15
GTA

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Plus those opposed to something almost always make one of the 2 most common online logical errors: 1) Assuming the exception is the rule, and 2) Lack of perspective.

So for 1) Superbox mail box break-ins are not widespread, and are completely unrelated to the public policy issue of deploying them

and for 2) Since break-ins are not widespread, it's not a problem across the 70% of mail-to addresses where they're used. Online ranting won't change that.

Ian1
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join:2002-06-18
ON

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said by PX Eliezer1:

And that the assertion that these boxes are "secure" is laughable.
...
My simple point was that it's another government assertion that does not hold up. No more, no less.

Just out of curiousity, I took a harder look than usual at my own CMB while getting the mail today. This is something I do about once a week. Any less frequently than that, the junk piles up. Anything important and I'll probably have an email of it already.

I'm not an experienced thief, but it doesn't look that easy to get into without the right key. Certainly a lot harder then the unlocked mailboxes that many with home delivery have. If you were to take a crowbar to the one on my street, or spend any time at all, and I think a curious neighbour would be alert enough to call the police.

nitzguy
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join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON

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said by bbbc:

Agree with this. If people want something they'll get it. Where I disagree is I believe the community mailboxes make for a more attractive target than someone's front door.

Speaking as someone who had their vehicle broken into while their vehicle was about 2 feet from the front door of their house, thieves are thieves and It is what it is.

Whether I have door to door or walk down the street...
IamGimli (banned)
join:2004-02-28
Canada

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said by Ian1:

Certainly a lot harder then the unlocked mailboxes that many with home delivery have. If you were to take a crowbar to the one on my street, or spend any time at all, and I think a curious neighbour would be alert enough to call the police.

Bingo. Made-up problem by the "don't change MY service" crowd.

bbbc
join:2001-10-02
NorthAmerica

bbbc to Ian1

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said by Ian :

Mail is dying. There's no use denying that. I think it should be privatized. Whatever mail you would then get is whatever you contracted to get, at whatever cost.

We need to get out of, as a Country, the bulk wood-pulp delivery business. It's a bad business to be in with the current model.

Yeah that's it, privatizing is the miracle of the century, privatizing profits and socialize losses. Hate to break it to you, but aspects of a civilized society like public transportation, roads / highways, and mail aren't going to make a profit. Postage mail is going to be around for a while, maybe not the same volume, but it ain't going anywhere anytime soon.

How many community mainboxes are broken into that we don't know about, perhaps a shitload. Need a study for that?

Ian1
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join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1

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said by bbbc:

Postage mail is going to be around for a while, maybe not the same volume, but it ain't going anywhere anytime soon.

Great. Let's hope it's a privatized system like the British Royal Mail. You can still send a telegram too, through a private operator if you're feeling the nostalgia.
said by bbbc:

How many community mainboxes are broken into that we don't know about, perhaps a shitload. Need a study for that?

I suppose we could ask Canada Post. But no, I am NOT just going to blindly assume it to be a huge problem because of a single story from Manitoba. That would be stupid.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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CMB's break in's are not wide spread because they aren't in large and dense urban areas yet.

I'd love to see the numbers once CP has finished screwing over every Canadian with their poorly thought out mentality
peterboro (banned)
Avatars are for posers
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned)

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In my never humble opinion CMBs will not be as much a target in urban areas unless they can be accessed quickly or innocuously. I takes me from 30 seconds to 5 minutes to pick a lock. Not something I would want to do in a busy urban area.
IamGimli (banned)
join:2004-02-28
Canada

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said by elwoodblues:

CMB's break in's are not wide spread because they aren't in large and dense urban areas yet.

They're not? You may want to tell that to every high rise, condo, apartment, multi-family, etc owners out there, which ALL have community mailboxes.

Besides, the larger, denser an area the more traffic in that area, which means the more people to see thieves at work and report them.

lugnut
@communications.com

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Anon

to PX Eliezer1
Here's my personal spin on it.

I've had a community mailbox for the past twenty years.

I live in west end Mississauga and if that doesn't qualify as "urban" I dunno what does? Mississauga is like the third or fourth largest city in Canada. It's also hardly what I'd call a "low rent district."

I haven't had a problem with mail theft since they busted that big mail theft ring in the sorting station well over ten years ago.

Now here's the crux of the biscuit.

If you honestly believe that it's easier to smash apart a community mailbox in broad daylight than it is to pretend you're delivering flyers door to door and walk away with whatever is stuffed in your door front mailbox then it's time for you to stop smoking the ganja and check into your local psych ward for a reality check.

The mere fact that a SINGLE break in in flipping BRANDON MB MAKES NATIONAL HEADLINE NEWS is a pretty good indicator of just how secure these boxes are.

I too have to deal with the inconvenience of trekking 500 meters in slush and snow to pick up my mail these days but security of the box is the absolute LEAST of my worries.

Generally I'm more worried about things like misdelivered mail and tracking numbers which sometimes don't get properly scanned. The same problems anyone would have with Canada Post regardless of whether they get it delivered to their door or to a CMB.

As far as I'm concerned I could care less about whether or not the rest of the country gets "inconvenienced" like I've been for the past twenty years and I consider it to be long overdue.

If it helps keep postal rates down then I'm all for it. If you want and expect courier service in your grandfathered neighbourhood THEN BLOODY WELL PAY FOR IT!~

My only concern is for the disabled and seniors who can't travel a half kilometer round trip to their CMB and hopefully in those cases special considerations can be made.

As for the rest of ya nancies, suck it up and kwitcherbichen. Things change. Get used to it!

Mashiki
Balking The Enemy's Plans
join:2002-02-04
Woodstock, ON

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said by Thane_Bitter:

Availability of blanks, by rights the local big box store should not have access to blanks of that key type. Also an honest locksmith will not copy keys which have been marked with "dnd" or "do not duplicate".

That's only a problem with keys that are very hard to find with blanks. I was able to get keys cut that were stamped DND by simply going into a store, and looking for the "young kid" doing the cutting who wouldn't know any better. In one case, the kid couldn't figure out what blank it was and called over a senior employee who asked if it was a DND cut. "Yep" with a "not a problem, let's see if we have a blank for it."

BonezX
Basement Dweller
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join:2004-04-13
Canada

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said by Ian1:

I'm not an experienced thief, but it doesn't look that easy to get into without the right key. Certainly a lot harder then the unlocked mailboxes that many with home delivery have. If you were to take a crowbar to the one on my street, or spend any time at all, and I think a curious neighbour would be alert enough to call the police.

It's all about understanding how it works, and if i put some thought into it, i could likely get them open pretty quickly.

Would i make a whole lot of noise ?, ya damn right i would.

lugnut
@communications.com

lugnut to Mashiki

Anon

to Mashiki
said by Mashiki:

said by Thane_Bitter:

Availability of blanks, by rights the local big box store should not have access to blanks of that key type. Also an honest locksmith will not copy keys which have been marked with "dnd" or "do not duplicate".

That's only a problem with keys that are very hard to find with blanks. I was able to get keys cut that were stamped DND by simply going into a store, and looking for the "young kid" doing the cutting who wouldn't know any better. In one case, the kid couldn't figure out what blank it was and called over a senior employee who asked if it was a DND cut. "Yep" with a "not a problem, let's see if we have a blank for it."

If I wanted to break into a CMB, it would take me two minutes with a cordless drill to ream out the master lock that opens the whole thing.

Then again, it would take me about the same amount of time to ream out the deadbolt on your home's front door.

The truth is we all take the same risks pretty much in day to day life. Get used to it.

Life's tough...

Wear a helmet

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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Somewhere in

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And up comes the strawman to defend a defenseless position.

Most Apartment buildings have mail rooms inside the lobby.
Every Condo I've been to the mailroom is near the "concierge".
elwoodblues

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Another classic case of "I don't have it, so you should't either"
Expand your moderator at work

lugnut
@communications.com

lugnut to elwoodblues

Anon

to elwoodblues

Re: "Secure" Canada Post community mailboxes breached

said by elwoodblues:

Another classic case of "I don't have it, so you should't either"

Another classic case of "If *I'm* paying for it why should YOU get it when I can't?"

Ian1
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said by elwoodblues:

Another classic case of "I don't have it, so you should't either"

So, what WOULD it take for you to decide that maybe home delivery is too expensive? If Canada Post being in the red a projected $1 Billion a year isn't enough, what is? Should we just spend infinity dollars forever, delivering less and less actual mail?

Thane_Bitter
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That's the problem when you replace professionals with replaceable low cost cog like employees. Some manufactures do try to secure their blanks but they aren't the type that sells their products at a big box store anyways.
PX Eliezer1
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join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

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said by Ian1:

But no, I am NOT just going to blindly assume it to be a huge problem because of a single story from Manitoba. That would be stupid.

Don't know what's wrong with simply discussing an issue. And it's multinational because CanadaPost is buying US manufactured CMB.

Anyhoo, a quick perusal shows....

Metro Vancouver has been named the mail theft capital of Canada, with over 250 break-ins in just the suburb of Langley....

»www.vancitybuzz.com/2014 ··· -canada/

Community mailboxes in rural areas a target for thieves....As urban neighbourhoods prepare for the transition from doorstep mail delivery to community mailboxes, rural residents are already wrestling with a growing problem — smash-and-grab mail theft.

Theft from community mailboxes is increasing and there may not be a solution for it any time soon....

Mailbox thieves are so determined, though, that sometimes the best locks in the world won’t stop them — last month they dragged away two entire community mailboxes in Surrey. Those boxes were newer, more secure models.

»armchairmayor.ca/2015/01 ··· thieves/

Man pleads guilty in case involving dozens of Okanagan mailbox thefts

In handing down the sentence, the judge noted Minchau has a previous criminal record. “It is clear that he has engaged in a pattern of crime,” said Meg Shaw.

The 31-year-old man used screwdrivers to pry open community mailboxes in Osoyoos, Keremeos and Oliver.

»globalnews.ca/news/16679 ··· -thefts/

Community mailbox bandit targets tri-area

A string of community mailbox thefts over the past two weeks in Spruce Grove and Stony Plain has prompted RCMP to issue a warning and a suggestion to residents to keep a wary eye out for unusual behaviour.

Cpl. Colette Zazulak said mailbox break-ins usually involve suspects looking for cheques and other lucrative items that come in the mail, but indicated that security is difficult when it comes to the mail system.

“It’s tough because for those mailboxes, you’re just given the key,” she said. “The only thing (you could do) would be to note any suspicious activity around the mailboxes, or if anyone seems to be there for too long.”

»www.sprucegroveexaminer. ··· tri-area

Vernon RCMP Arrest Mail Theft Suspect

Vernon RCMP has arrested a suspect in connection to recent community mailbox thefts in the North Okanagan.

Police say on Sunday May 4th they responded to reports that five community boxes had been broken into in the Lavington and Lumby area. A short while later a man and woman attempted to cash a cheque related to the thefts at a Vernon Money Mart. The police were called and ended up chasing after the couple.

»www.kelownanow.com/news/ ··· _Suspect
said by Ian1:

But no, I am NOT just going to blindly assume it to be a huge problem because of a single story from Manitoba. That would be stupid.

More than a single story, it would seem.

lugnut
@communications.com

lugnut

Anon

All of those stories were in BC it seems. Don't forget that BC is the crime capitol of Canada.

Anyway, if thieves are breaking into rural CMBs how is it any more secure to have a dinky mailbox on a post with a little red flag sitting at the curbside at the end of your driveway?

If you want to build CMBs in urban areas you have a lot of eyeballs on the scene all checking to make sure that nobody is messing with the boxes during the day.

If you want to make a CMB secure in a rural area then just stick it outside a post office or 7 eleven or some other convenience store to make certain there's a certain amount of traffic during the day to discourage would be thieves.

Then again everyone would start bitching about having to travel a few km to the local bait shoppe to pick up their mail.

But how would that be any different from the good old days when there was no rural delivery and everyone had to pick up their mail at the local post office?

And like I said earlier, how is it any more difficult for a mail thief to simply walk door to door handing out fake flyers and cleaning out every household mailbox on the block?

No locks, no hassle, no witnesses and unless you have an actual mail slot in your door that feeds directly into the house 1000 times easier than a smash and grab on a community mailbox. And a built in mail slot won't save your bacon if Canada Post leaves a parcel outside your door.

Here in Mississauga CMB theft is a non story. I read the Mississauga News pretty much every week and have yet to see any stories about any sort of "mail theft crime ring" since the big story where they busted a dozen people at the sorting plant over a decade ago.

Perhaps if Canada Post really wanted to secure the rural boxes they should start mounting CCTV cameras on nearby hydro poles.