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PL0
Premium Member
join:2013-12-18
Almonte, ON

PL0

Premium Member

Does Cat-3 carry DSL as well as Cat-5 carries Ethernet?

Or putting it another way, will the DSL signal degrade significantly over a few dozen ' of Cat-3? The reason I'm asking is that I have to bridge the gap between the demarc and my home network. So I have two options:

  1. I can run Cat-3 all the way from the demarc to my home network, where I'll have my modem

  2. I can put the modem right near the demarc, then run a Cat-5 to my home network.


So either way, I have to run a lot of Cat. #1 is a bit simpler and probably cheaper, but #2 is safe, as far as I know, because I know the Ethernet single won't degrade.

billaustin
they call me Mr. Bill
MVM
join:2001-10-13
North Las Vegas, NV

billaustin

MVM

Cat3 is all that is necessary for DSL, but Cat5e works fine and is normally used if new cable needs to be run. The cost difference between the two is minimal. The twisting of the pairs in both cable types is designed to reject interference. Since you have to run new cable anyway, just run Cat5e (I would pull two for backup/future use). Use the cable to run the DSL signal over and put the modem next to the router. If you have issues with the DSL (doubtful), you can just change the jacks on the end of the cable (or use the spare cable) and move the modem.
PL0
Premium Member
join:2013-12-18
Almonte, ON

1 edit

PL0

Premium Member

So you're saying I should run Cat-5 all the way from the demarc to my home network? I should also mention that I'll need to plug an RJ-11 into the demarc.

tschmidt
MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Consolidated Com..
·Republic Wireless
·Hollis Hosting

1 edit

tschmidt

MVM

said by PL0:

So you're saying I should run Cat-5 all the way from the demarc to my home network?

Cat 5e has much higher performance then Cat 3, but Cat 3 is perfectly acceptable. After all the DSL signal has traveled over thousands of feet of phone company cable that is no better then Cat 3.

The reason for the Cat 5e recommendation is that it is no more expensive then Cat 3 so if you have to purchase cable it might as well be Cat 5e suitable for: voice/DSL and Ethernet.

Perhaps Canada is different but here in the US the customer terminals on the Demarc accept wire, the RJ-11 connector is intended for test purposes.

/tom

billaustin
they call me Mr. Bill
MVM
join:2001-10-13
North Las Vegas, NV

billaustin to PL0

MVM

to PL0
Yes, run Cat5e all the way from the NID to the modem location. There should be a terminal in the NID that you connect the bare ends of (one pair of) the wire to. The terminal should have a short cable with a RJ11 end that connects to the test jack. You attach the other end to a RJ11 jack near the modem and use a short line cord to make the connection.

Can you post a picture of this inside of your NID?

tschmidt
MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Consolidated Com..
·Republic Wireless
·Hollis Hosting

tschmidt to PL0

MVM

to PL0
Something else to think about since you are installing inside wiring is to install a whole house POTS/DSL splitter near the Demarc if you have telephone service on the DSL line.

Splitters do a better job isolating POTS from DSL and eliminate the need for in-line filter at each non-DSL device.

/tom

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA

NormanS to PL0

MVM

to PL0
Can you still get two-pair Cat 3? The main reason I used it on a premises I wired was that two-pair Cat three was available for less than the same amount of Cat 5e (which, AFAIK is always four-pair).

Second the whole house splitter.
HELLFIRE
MVM
join:2009-11-25

1 recommendation

HELLFIRE to PL0

MVM

to PL0
Try this guide for Cat3 v Cat5 v Cat5e v Cat6/x variants.

Otherwise I'm with billaustin See Profile in that if this a new run you're doing, and for the cost differential, no reason not to use
Cat5e, or even Cat6.

My 00000010bits

Regards
pb2k
join:2005-05-30
Calgary, AB

pb2k to PL0

Member

to PL0
Always, always, always put the modem as close as physically possible to the demarc (and POTS splitter) and then run Ethernet (cat5e/6) to your network from there. Cat3 works fine from the demarc to the modem, but you can never go wrong with cat5e/6.
mikeluscher159
join:2011-09-04

mikeluscher159 to PL0

Member

to PL0
For future-proofing, posterity, and perceived better resistance to RF noise and cross-talk, Cat5e is what you use. Price shop online, you won't be saving much if any by using Cat3.

Of course do a POTS splitter, and a fresh, non split home run to the Modem
All of this stands you the best chance of the best reliability and performance you can get.

tschmidt
MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Consolidated Com..
·Republic Wireless
·Hollis Hosting

1 recommendation

tschmidt to pb2k

MVM

to pb2k
said by pb2k:

Always, always, always put the modem as close as physically possible to the demarc

I respectfully disagree.

The signal has traveled thousands of feet to get to your residence, another few feet of wire is not going to make a difference.

Ease of access and if modem/router has Wi-Fi, radio placement, trumps Demarc distance.

/tom
PL0
Premium Member
join:2013-12-18
Almonte, ON

PL0 to mikeluscher159

Premium Member

to mikeluscher159
Yeah, before this goes much further and I get a chance to photograph my demarc box, 2 things:

  1. I have voip, so I've completely isolated the POTS network from the DSL

  2. I just looked up the spec sheet for my modem and the minimum operating temp is freezing. In rural Ontario it doesn't go far below that in the garage, but it does go below and stays there a long time. Sure, I could wrap it in fibre glass for the winter, but then I'm asking for real problems, like permanent ones, so having it in the garage is out of the question. I'll have to run the cable into the utility room.

LittleBill
join:2013-05-24

1 recommendation

LittleBill

Member

just use cat5 or cat 6, i just used cat 6 to move my pots line as i had it sitting around
pb2k
join:2005-05-30
Calgary, AB

pb2k to tschmidt

Member

to tschmidt
said by tschmidt:

said by pb2k:

Always, always, always put the modem as close as physically possible to the demarc

I respectfully disagree.

The signal has traveled thousands of feet to get to your residence, another few feet of wire is not going to make a difference.

Ease of access and if modem/router has Wi-Fi, radio placement, trumps Demarc distance.

/tom

I respectfully disagree with your disagreement.

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
TP-Link TD-8616
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Netgear FR114P

NormanS

MVM

said by pb2k:

I respectfully disagree with your disagreement.

I had my modem ~35 feet from the demarc, with a run of Cat 3 to the location. I had need, once, to test the modem at the NID. Eliminating ~35 feet of Cat 3 did not make a difference in the stats.
pb2k
join:2005-05-30
Calgary, AB

pb2k

Member

said by NormanS:

said by pb2k:

I respectfully disagree with your disagreement.

I had my modem ~35 feet from the demarc, with a run of Cat 3 to the location. I had need, once, to test the modem at the NID. Eliminating ~35 feet of Cat 3 did not make a difference in the stats.

On an individual basis it may not *appear* to make a difference, but when it's best practice ISP wide, you would actually be surprised.

In really simple terms, the longer your loop length, the higher the launch power required at the DSLAM and the more crosstalk you induce into other pairs in your binder group (and vice versa). Inside wiring is also normally not shielded, so longer inside runs undoubtedly increase the noise floor.

I will concede that knowledgeable people who run a dedicated home run with under 50ft of cat5e probably won't negatively impact anything. It's the people with no pots splitter,100ft of doorbell grade wire, and multiple splices and splits that cause the problem.
PL0
Premium Member
join:2013-12-18
Almonte, ON

PL0 to billaustin

Premium Member

to billaustin
Click for full size
My opened up, Bell Canada, demarc
Here ya go. If I pull out that RJ-11 at a then the DSL goes down. Also, if I plug my DSL directly into it, my speed jumps 50%. I'm pretty sure that's the way it was before that waste-of-space electrician got to it. And I take it that I'm supposed to connect my new cable to b
But now 2 things come to mind:

  1. I've looked into TP and it seems that the only benefit it gives is defence against RFI (like crosstalk). Therefore, if there's no RFI near it, the twists won't make a difference. I don't think there is a lot. The cables that run near it aren't very active.

  2. It looks as if there are two cables connected to b. So I'm thinking that the waste-of-space electrician didn't disconnect the old cable, which maybe causing all that interference. I hired that electrician, because when I moved into this house, I was having synch problems and it was driving me crazy. The new cable was an improvement, but I'm wondering if the reason it is slow is that the old cable is still connected to b.


Maybe all this rewiring crap is unnecessary and I just need to remove the old cable running from the demarc.

billaustin
they call me Mr. Bill
MVM
join:2001-10-13
North Las Vegas, NV

billaustin

MVM

said by PL0:

... Maybe all this rewiring crap is unnecessary and I just need to remove the old cable running from the demarc.

If you do not have telephone service on the line, that is where I would start. Having extra cable attached to the terminals will cause problems.
pb2k
join:2005-05-30
Calgary, AB

pb2k to PL0

Member

to PL0
A is your demarcation test jack and everything up to and including it should be left as is (don't screw with the lightning protection and grounding). B is the customer connection point and you should have only one cable running straight from there to the POTS splitter (and then on to the modem).

If both sets of wires on B seem to be required for phone, move your POTS splitter into the demarc and run a dedicated wire to your modem and connect the wires on B to the phone side of the splitter.
PL0
Premium Member
join:2013-12-18
Almonte, ON

PL0

Premium Member

If I attached the POTS splitter to the demarc, I'd likely burn my ATA

tschmidt
MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Consolidated Com..
·Republic Wireless
·Hollis Hosting

tschmidt

MVM

Since you do not have POTS service there is no need for a splitter.

Disconnect existing inside wiring and run a new twisted-pair drop to the modem location.

If you want wired phones to be able to use the VoIP ATA connect the now disconnected inside wire to the ATA.

/tom
pb2k
join:2005-05-30
Calgary, AB

pb2k

Member

said by tschmidt:

Since you do not have POTS service there is no need for a splitter.

Telco's normally leave the loop in service with 911 calling only, so it's good practice to put one in (if you have one).
Tikker_LoS
join:2004-04-29
Regina, SK

Tikker_LoS

Member

said by pb2k:

Telco's normally leave the loop in service with 911 calling only, so it's good practice to put one in (if you have one).

what? no

dry loop is in no way connected to the voice network
pb2k
join:2005-05-30
Calgary, AB

pb2k

Member

said by Tikker_LoS:

said by pb2k:

Telco's normally leave the loop in service with 911 calling only, so it's good practice to put one in (if you have one).

what? no

dry loop is in no way connected to the voice network

Yes, yes it is (at least for my ILEC). Historically, it was done because the billing database had the phone number as a key field in the database. Nowadays, it's the ability to instantly provision voice service if requested, and the best way to identify a circuit in the field is still ANI.

henrydong1
@google.com

henrydong1 to tschmidt

Anon

to tschmidt
said by tschmidt:

said by pb2k:

Always, always, always put the modem as close as physically possible to the demarc

I respectfully disagree.

The signal has traveled thousands of feet to get to your residence, another few feet of wire is not going to make a difference.

Ease of access and if modem/router has Wi-Fi, radio placement, trumps Demarc distance.

/tom

Actually incorrect, the dsl signal travels on bell wire thats usually thicker than the one in ur home, its typically burried underground from the stinger or slam to ur house so there is likely little to no interference, once it gets to ur home and the demarc the wiring is usually different shielding and gage, its suseptable to more noise from your hydro wires, floresent lights, radio and rf signals, splices, patch cables and even telefony devices onthesame line.. i too recommend to put the modem as close to ur demark as possible and running the ethernet from the modem to ur network devices ie switch or rouder, ethernet can travel longer with less loss than ur adsl/vdsl wiring

Wily_One
Premium Member
join:2002-11-24
San Jose, CA

1 recommendation

Wily_One

Premium Member

said by henrydong1 :

its typically burried underground...

Maybe where you live, but not around here (unless it's a brand new development).

shdesigns
Powered By Infinite Improbabilty Drive
Premium Member
join:2000-12-01
Stone Mountain, GA
(Software) pfSense
ARRIS SB6121

1 recommendation

shdesigns

Premium Member

said by Wily_One:

said by henrydong1 :

its typically burried underground...

Maybe where you live, but not around here (unless it's a brand new development).

Also, that 25-pair cable has considerable crosstalk.

Have seen neighbors lights dumping noise in the cable, killing other's DSL.
Tikker_LoS
join:2004-04-29
Regina, SK

1 recommendation

Tikker_LoS to henrydong1

Member

to henrydong1
said by henrydong1 :

Actually incorrect, the dsl signal travels on bell wire thats usually thicker than the one in ur home

no, not typically. outdoor ranges anywhere from 22 to 26 gage depending on the age of the plant
PL0
Premium Member
join:2013-12-18
Almonte, ON

1 edit

PL0

Premium Member

I finally got around to removing the old cable from my demarc. It made no difference to the modem's performance and, yes, I did reset the modem. I guess the next step is to try Cat5 of various lengths and see how well that does. I may have to consider preparing an environment near the demarc that the modem can operate in. Anyway, this is a project for the spring.
mikeluscher159
join:2011-09-04

mikeluscher159

Member

What's the length of the run? Could be outside interference or crosstalk. You could Prevent against both by using shielded Cat5e.