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fixrman
From a broken heart to a hole in the sky
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join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA
·Verizon FiOS

fixrman to tcope

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to tcope

Re: [Tech] Cars with keyless ignition that can be locked with engine running.

Manufacturers do not have the responsibility to manufacture a vehicle to the whims of a customer; rather they put the features into a vehicle they figure most people will want at a reasonable price, then options can be added on from there.

It is important to remember that there are safety reasons for doing things and security reasons for doing things and convenience may be a trade off. That is the case with many things such as buying a house, a computer, a car, an airplane or a vacation. What is available may not be affordable, what is affordable may not be convenient.

In this case the OP has a new requirement and wants the manufacturer to accommodate it. While it may not be possible to do it in the desired way, there may be another way - but sometimes it may require money and even a reprogram is going to cost money because somebody is going to have to connect the car and reprogram the BECM or AECU. But no manufacturer can ever account for every want, desire and whim.

A Remote Start is an add-on feature for those manufacturers who have not designed it in so those manufacturers who don't offer it as standard offer it as an option at an additional price. People have started their cars, locked their doors whilst running and have no way to get into their car because they don't have or cannot find their extra keys or fobs.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt

Member

said by fixrman:

It is important to remember that there are safety reasons for doing things and security reasons for doing things and convenience may be a trade off. That is the case with many things such as buying a house, a computer, a car, an airplane or a vacation. What is available may not be affordable, what is affordable may not be convenient.

If all vehicles were designed with the limitations that the RX-350 has then I might agree with you. In view if the fact that so many other vehicle manufactures offer the features that SHOULD HAVE BEEN INCLUDED IN THE ORIGINAL DESIGN of the RX-350 I cannot understand your argument that I quoted. If those features are a safety hazard or security risk other vehicle manufactures would not have included them. If I leave my RX-350 with the key FOB, the key in ignition chimes and the vehicle is left in a state where it can be easily stolen. That is simply a demonstration of the lack of foresight by the manufacture. Adding the desired features cost nothing since those features could be added by enhancing the program that controls vehicle security. Don't forget the vehicle has a setup screen that allows the driver to set locking parameters. The programmer could add additional options to allow the desired features to be turned on or off at the whim of the driver.
DoctorStinky
join:2011-11-10
Brunswick, ME

DoctorStinky

Member

said by Mr Matt:

Adding the desired features cost nothing since those features could be added by enhancing the program that controls vehicle security. Don't forget the vehicle has a setup screen that allows the driver to set locking parameters. The programmer could add additional options to allow the desired features to be turned on or off at the whim of the driver.

While I am very sympathetic to your desire to enable locked-while-running functionality in your vehicle, I do have to take issue with the portion of your post quoted above. The cost of doing this is not "nothing." A developer has to be paid to write the code, it has to be regression tested to verify that it both works and doesn't cause any unintended side-effects, it needs to be packaged for installation in the car, the new feature(s) need to be documented and distributed to the dealers, and finally someone (likely at your dealership) needs to actually install it and show you how to activate it.

Given the above, I sincerely doubt you'll see this happen unless there's a groundswell of demand from other RX-350 owners. Unfortunately, I think the most expedient option is to bite the bullet and get the remote start feature installed.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt

Member

said by DoctorStinky:

The cost of doing this is not "nothing."

The cost to add features is nothing if it does not require additional memory or hardware unless a programmer or developer is assigned to a special project to create the update before the next software release. That would involve labor cost. Normally each year vehicle specifications are updated on a regular basis to conform to regulatory changes, those new features are added in the next software release. One of the reason for adding features is to remain competitive.

In some cases my employer would offer to upgrade PABX System software that was to be included in a new release, for a customer, after the software was tested in the in house system. Rather than a cost, this method of deployment saved money and provided for customer satisfaction and exposed unknown problems before the next software release was issued.

bobjohnson
Premium Member
join:2007-02-03
Spartanburg, SC

bobjohnson to Mr Matt

Premium Member

to Mr Matt
In the wife's Highlander I start it lock it and unlock it with the key.

Edit: It is push to start. I meant that I start it and then use the key to lock and unlock it lol
DoctorStinky
join:2011-11-10
Brunswick, ME

DoctorStinky to Mr Matt

Member

to Mr Matt
Sorry, but I'm sure you know that programmers don't work for free, and they're generally not paid to just sit around waiting for things to do. Assigning one to support development of a feature that doesn't exist in the current firmware most certainly has a cost: That programmer cannot be spending as much time on other projects that would enhance the desirability of the vehicle and therefore its sales. And every change to the firmware has the potential for ripple effects that could affect the safety and usability of the car, so regression testing is extremely important and likely very time consuming, thereby increasing the length (and cost) of the development cycle.

And it's probably worth noting that an upgrade to a PABX system isn't likely to impact the functionality and safety of a 3 ton vehicle that can easily reach 90mph with 5 passengers.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

1 edit

Mr Matt

Member

said by DoctorStinky:

And it's probably worth noting that an upgrade to a PABX system isn't likely to impact the functionality and safety of a 3 ton vehicle that can easily reach 90mph with 5 passengers.

Programmers don't work for free on the other hand there is no ADDITIONAL COST when a series of feature enhancements are incorporated in the development of a new release of software, in order for the manufacture to remain competitive. That is a cost of doing business. Remember my comment about how the doors on the 2010 RX-350 could not be locked with the rear hatch open but the doors on the 2013 RX-350 can be locked with the rear hatch open can. Do you think Lexus management wasted time creating a budget item to add that feature? I am sure when enough customers complained Lexus fixed the problem.

An upgrade to a PABX system can impact the functionality of a PABX system serving a hospital with hundreds of patients. If the PABX system fails because of an unknown bug hundreds of patients could be placed at risk. Therefore my employer would convene a mufti-department meeting to determine who to release the new software to for evaluation.
DoctorStinky
join:2011-11-10
Brunswick, ME

DoctorStinky

Member

What's your experience in management, particularly in software development? I can tell you that mine is significantly higher than zero . . . I've been working in roles from middle to senior management in multiple software companies since 2001. And I can tell you with authority that THERE IS A COST ASSOCIATED WITH EVERY FEATURE ADDED. It's planned for and budgeted (hopefully) but THERE IS A COST. You can deny it all you want, but any business that fails to plan for those costs won't be a successful business for long.

Yes, enhancements can be added, but they need to be evaluated, prioritized, work effort estimated, and approved before development even starts. Even that process has a cost, and the business has to acknowledge and budget for that cost.

Look, I truly do want you to get what you and your wife need from Lexus. I'm just telling you that there's a vanishingly small chance that you'll convince them to add the feature you're looking for in anything like the time-frame you're likely to need it.

That doesn't stop me from hoping that the ammunition I've provided in the form of my own vehicle's capabilities will help. Unfortunately, unless there are hundreds, if not thousands of people with RX-350s making a lot of noise about this, you're tilting at windmills.

PS. And yes, I DO think Lexus created a budget item to fix the rear hatch issue. They'd have been stupid to not evaluate the need for that fix against other development priorities; it's not wasted time, it's proper software management.
fixrman
From a broken heart to a hole in the sky
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join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA
·Verizon FiOS

fixrman to Mr Matt

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to Mr Matt
Wait a minute. If you are planning to sue them for "lack of foresight" or something along those lines, good luck with that.

You sound like somebody who would sue a company that manufactures ladders who didn't tell you it is unsafe to not have the ladder on level ground. After all, the company should have known that people would use the ladder for many unintended purposes.

Come on, man. No manufacturer can possibly predict every possible scenario, nor are they necessarily copy or even know what other manufacturers plan to do for what a driver could want. This is really getting ridiculous now. I feel bad for the situation, but blaming the manufacturer for not predicting your need is beyond realistic.
fixrman

fixrman to Mr Matt

Premium Member

to Mr Matt
I know of a local hospital that cannot do certain things in their emergency room because of software limitations. So what do I do about that?
dave
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join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

dave to fixrman

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to fixrman
One man's "desirable feature" is another man's worthless frill. I've sort of lost track of the whole argument, but I can't see me ever wanting the ability to run the engine with the key fob outside the vehicle. To me, that's not even worthless, that's a negative feature: it means one day I might accidentally end up leaving the engine running after I have exited the vehicle.

From the software development angle, every time you add an optional feature, you increase the number of combinations that QA has to test.
fixrman
From a broken heart to a hole in the sky
Premium Member
join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA

fixrman

Premium Member

I get the OP's reason for wanting this, but I think he has an expectation that may not be able to be met - at least not the way he wants it - and is going about trying to get it in the wrong way.
DoctorStinky
join:2011-11-10
Brunswick, ME

DoctorStinky to dave

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to dave
said by dave:

One man's "desirable feature" is another man's worthless frill. I've sort of lost track of the whole argument, but I can't see me ever wanting the ability to run the engine with the key fob outside the vehicle. To me, that's not even worthless, that's a negative feature: it means one day I might accidentally end up leaving the engine running after I have exited the vehicle.

From the software development angle, every time you add an optional feature, you increase the number of combinations that QA has to test.

I can see a need (or at least a want) for it, living in a state where the temperature has risen above freezing exactly 2 out of the last 30 days. Fortunately, I don't have to worry about locking it with the engine running and key fob inside or otherwise unavailable; as long as I have access to a phone, I can unlock it regardless of where the key fob is via the manufacturer's Assist feature.

The OP's situation is different, given his wife's medical condition. This feature would be of great value to her comfort and potentially her health. I just don't see it happening for him in a reasonable time frame, if at all.
dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

dave

Premium Member

Me too, almost (MA, not ME). But ass-warmer seats immediately compensate for a cold car.

I'd forgotten about BMW Assist for remote unlocking, though.

Anonymous_
Anonymous
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join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1

1 edit

Anonymous_ to tcope

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to tcope
Well buy a standalone car heater?
said by tcope:

Most car thevies don't have $70,000 flat beds.

you can always steal the trailer that contains the car?

As seen on tv a $250,000 race car stolen by taking the trailer it was in

I have you owned right now

also to top it off he had to forfeit the race he was in
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt

Member

I want to thank those of you that contributed useful information to this thread. When I called the Lexus dealer and spoke to the "Technology Expert" he denied that any vehicle could be locked with the engine running. The information contributors added to this thread gave me ammunition for my B.S blaster to blow away the experts inaccurate arguments. After I annihilated his argument he suggested I call Lexus corporate. I did not have time Friday to call, but will do so tomorrow and follow up with Lexus's response in this thread.

On the other hand I would like to recommend that those of you who engaged in personal attacks and provided irrelevant information, do as Archie Bunker told Edith to do: Stifle yourself. You know who I am referring to. The abuse so you spewed forth might discourage a visitor, after posting in this forum for the first time from returning. I am sure Karl wants to encourage visitors to become members not discourage them from returning.
OldCableGuy (banned)
join:2014-12-19

OldCableGuy (banned)

Member

said by Mr Matt:

The information contributors added to this thread gave me ammunition for my B.S blaster to blow away the experts inaccurate arguments. After I annihilated his argument he suggested I call Lexus corporate.

Sounds like you sure showed him...

Surprised he continued to hold out and didn't give you the top super-duper secret code to turn the feature on. He's holding out, you better lay into some minimum wage phone jockey at Lexus corporate as well and that should be enough to get the secret code.

OH SHOOT I'VE SAID TOO MUCH
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt

Member

said by OldCableGuy:

Sounds like you sure showed him...

Obviously you did not review this thread completely. I did not show the dishonest "technology expert" anything. Those that contributed to this thread were responsible for that. If it was not for the facts contributors provided to this thread the Lexus employee might have been able to deceive me into believing there are no vehicles manufactured that can be locked with the engine running. Please explain why you felt it necessary to engage in a personal attack against me and my question?
OldCableGuy (banned)
join:2014-12-19

OldCableGuy (banned)

Member

What difference does it make if vehicles exist that can. YOUR LEXUS CAN'T.

What did you really accomplish??
Dodge
Premium Member
join:2002-11-27

1 recommendation

Dodge to Mr Matt

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to Mr Matt
said by Mr Matt:

If I leave my RX-350 with the key FOB, the key in ignition chimes and the vehicle is left in a state where it can be easily stolen.

This is done so if while you are on a highway and something malfunctions and the vehicle no longer detects a key it wouldn't just shutoff. I'm guess people would be ultra pissed if that happened.
DoctorStinky
join:2011-11-10
Brunswick, ME

DoctorStinky

Member

said by Dodge:

said by Mr Matt:

If I leave my RX-350 with the key FOB, the key in ignition chimes and the vehicle is left in a state where it can be easily stolen.

This is done so if while you are on a highway and something malfunctions and the vehicle no longer detects a key it wouldn't just shutoff. I'm guess people would be ultra pissed if that happened.

I'd think there would be other conditions that had to be met, such as the vehicle being in Park, before a car maker would enable such a feature. In Mr Matt's case, the car would be in Park while locked and without key fob.
DoctorStinky

DoctorStinky to Mr Matt

Member

to Mr Matt
Mr Matt, Do you have only one key fob?

Just curious . . . if you have both fobs, can you leave one in the car while it's running and lock it with the other?

EDIT: Just re-read your original post and saw this:

"If you leave another Keyless Go FOB in the vehicle you cannot leave and lock the vehicle because the vehicle believes it is occupied. This is why if you have Keyless Go and you want to leave a spare in the vehicle, you must remove the battery from the FOB so it isn't detected. If you lost your primary key, the vehicle could still be unlocked via the Uconnect smartphone app then you could manually press the stored FOB to the push start button to operate the vehicle."

Now THAT'S a stupid and dangerous feature, and is a carjacking lawsuit waiting to happen.
fixrman
From a broken heart to a hole in the sky
Premium Member
join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA
·Verizon FiOS

fixrman

Premium Member

No, it isn't. People are not supposed to leave their vehicle running, unoccupied.

Carjacking is Robbery. Carjacking is the violent form of motor vehicle theft. It is a serious threat to our personal safety because the thief uses force and fear to rob our car from us.

Source: »www.crimedoctor.com/carj ··· king.htm

The above is the definition of carjacking. The scenario you describe is called unlawful taking of a vehicle.
DoctorStinky
join:2011-11-10
Brunswick, ME

DoctorStinky

Member

said by fixrman:

No, it isn't. People are not supposed to leave their vehicle running, unoccupied.

Carjacking is Robbery. Carjacking is the violent form of motor vehicle theft. It is a serious threat to our personal safety because the thief uses force and fear to rob our car from us.

Source: »www.crimedoctor.com/carj ··· king.htm

The above is the definition of carjacking. The scenario you describe is called unlawful taking of a vehicle.

Um, no. Please re-read the italicized paragraph. It doesn't say anything about the car being unoccupied.

According to the OP, the vehicle can't be locked with an active key fob inside the vehicle. So if his wife is in the passenger seat with her own key fob, or he himself has just entered the car with his key fob to start it, the car's not locked, and it can't be locked. I think that most certainly is a carjacking waiting to happen, and would expose Lexus to a potential lawsuit by creating an unsafe condition.
Dodge
Premium Member
join:2002-11-27

Dodge

Premium Member

said by DoctorStinky:

So if his wife is in the passenger seat with her own key fob, or he himself has just entered the car with his key fob to start it, the car's not locked, and it can't be locked.

ummm, yeah it can be, with the door switches. Why would you try to lock the car while sitting in it with a keyfob?
DoctorStinky
join:2011-11-10
Brunswick, ME

DoctorStinky

Member

said by Dodge:

said by DoctorStinky:

So if his wife is in the passenger seat with her own key fob, or he himself has just entered the car with his key fob to start it, the car's not locked, and it can't be locked.

ummm, yeah it can be, with the door switches. Why would you try to lock the car while sitting in it with a keyfob?

I was just going by what the OP posted. Unfortunately (for me) it appears he was referring to a key fob for Chrysler's Keyless GO system rather than his Lexus. So now I'm not sure what the Lexus' behavior is when another key fob is left in the passenger compartment, no passengers are present, and someone attempts to lock the vehicle from the outside with a separate key fob.

Probably doesn't matter at this point, since the OP has the information he was looking for.
Slagish
Premium Member
join:2010-09-07
Joliet, IL

Slagish to Mr Matt

Premium Member

to Mr Matt
On BMW with push start 2014, this can be done, I simply get in, push start the ignition, get out and lock the door with my key fob.
Slagish

Slagish to Mr Matt

Premium Member

to Mr Matt
Double post
DoctorStinky
join:2011-11-10
Brunswick, ME

DoctorStinky

Member

said by Slagish:

Double post

Actually, triple or quadruple post (kind of). I reported it here, and fellow DSL'er dave followed up to confirm
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt

Member

Facts about 2013 Lexus RX-350 locks:

The doors can be locked with the door lock button on either door if there is no key FOB, one key FOB or two key FOB's in the car as long as all doors are closed when the button is pressed.

If a key FOB is in the car and a door lock button is pressed, with any door open, the doors immediately unlock.

If there is no key FOB in the car and the engine is off (locked), the doors can be locked with either door lock push button or a key FOB.

If an attempt is made to lock the doors with a key FOB from outside and a key FOB is inside like in my wife's purse the doors immediately unlock.

If there is no key FOB in the car and the engine is running and the doors are open or closed, the doors cannot be locked with either door lock push button or a key FOB.

The following information was accurate at one time but might not be accurate now:

Smart key evolution first placed an RF ID chip in the plastic key handle. No battery was required. An signal was transmitted from an antenna in the steering column to read the RF ID.

As said in several automotive magazine articles that were written when key less ignition locks were first introduced. It was said that key less ignition systems employed two authentication devices in the key FOB. An RF ID chip inside the key FOB provided authentication when the key FOB was inside the passenger compartment. A battery powered transmitter in the key FOB, was used to lock and unlock the doors and hatch or trunk from outside the car.