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No Cost VoIP and is it goodBy 2020 the telecom networks are going to be very different because of VoIP. The original post was here (and this topic keeps getting flagged by the moderators so lets take Google Voice out of the discussion completely please) » The real problem with Google VoiceThe point of the discussion that I would like to talk about is as VoIP providers move towards lowering their costs to the point of providing free service it invites parties to the public telecom networks that would not normally be there. Such as spammers and hackers because of anonymity and $0 cost. The question and hopefully the core of the discussion is how can this potential problem be fixed? Should the government step in? Should there be a central system to track numbers to flag for abuse? Should voip providers be required to register their numbers directly instead of hiding behind a clec? Should caller ID spoofing be stopped? These are just some jump of questions that hopefully can start a discussion. |
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nonymous (banned) join:2003-09-08 Glendale, AZ
1 recommendation |
nonymous (banned)
Member
2015-Mar-12 5:44 pm
Voip is always going to have spammers and hackers no matter the cost. Get used to it. Even Ma Bell had has people trying to make free phone calls. |
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nonymous |
to Ryan Tilton
Every voipo provider becoming a clec in every area they serve so as not to hide behind a clec. So are you up to becoming a clec in 50 states. |
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2 recommendations |
to Ryan Tilton
If the cost of a call is 0.005 a minute (as it can be obtained currently from paid providers), phone spammers/telemaketers will still be calling you even without having GV's rate of 0.000.
Telemarketing has existed even before VoIP existed. Even when calls cost 25 cents a minute, 20+ years ago, there were plenty of telemarketers interrupting American's dinner time. The Do Not Call list, and the reason it was needed, predates VoIP spam. |
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1 recommendation |
to Ryan Tilton
You can never get rid of spammers, pushing their services. |
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nonymous (banned) join:2003-09-08 Glendale, AZ
1 recommendation |
to Ryan Tilton
Telemarkets can make a bunch or short call aka no answer or leave message. Most VOIP charges extra for this type of consistent call and or has blocks in place to identify this type of use.
I think VOIP in some ways is now turnkey. But when you get into security issues or misuse of numbers that is a whole other headache for VOIP providers, or didn't they tell you that when you opened up Vestalink? |
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1 recommendation |
to PX Eliezer1
said by PX Eliezer1:You can never get rid of spammers, pushing their services. Yep, I already get too many spammers calling me with their rotation of bogus CID. Would there be more with free VoIP? Probably. Will the government fix it? Based on the current and growing plethora of spam and scam calls, I doubt it. If my blacklist gets much bigger, I'm switching to whitelisting. |
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Spam affects other environments too, although sometimes it links to new vistas. |
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cb14 join:2013-02-04 Miami Beach, FL
2 recommendations |
to Ryan Tilton
True caller ID spoofing should be eliminated. Putting a legitimated number you have as your CLID, some people call it spoofing, is perfectly fine. |
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cb14 |
to bitseeker
Blacklisting works for me, for now. I have about three dozen numbers blacklisted on my cell phone and it catches about 90% of spam. White listing would not work for me. |
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There needs to be a way to verify calls from their source before the phone rings. Maybe something that teleco's can profit from, its the only way it will go mainstream. |
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to cb14
said by cb14: I have about three dozen numbers blacklisted I wish I had so few. My list is about 3x yours, but still manageable. It seems to grow by a few CIDs per month or two. |
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arpawocky Premium Member join:2014-04-13 Columbus, OH |
to cb14
said by cb14:True caller ID spoofing should be eliminated. Putting a legitimated number you have as your CLID, some people call it spoofing, is perfectly fine. Agreed. Thing is, because of the legitimacy of putting your own number as the caller-id in an outbound call via a different carrier, a technological approach to stopping spoofing is (IMHO) the wrong approach. Actually enforcing the existing anti-spoofing laws would be nice though. said by Ryan Tilton:There needs to be a way to verify calls from their source before the phone rings. Maybe something that teleco's can profit from, its the only way it will go mainstream. Yeah right.. As a provider yourself, you should already know how technologically problematic that would be. But far more to the point, verifying caller-id would stop phone spam about as much as SPF solved the email spam problem, and then DKIM solved the email spam problem, and then DMARC solved the email spam problem - ie - not at all. Spoofing isn't necessary to spam. Stopping spoofing won't stop spam. Try to put yourself in the spammer's shoes for a minute... you want to reach the victim, and they might miss your call, so it is helpful to have a good number as the caller id. Besides, some of the spammers get paid for the CNAM dips. Why spoof someone else's number when you can get paid to use your own? |
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cb14 join:2013-02-04 Miami Beach, FL |
to bitseeker
said by bitseeker:said by cb14: I have about three dozen numbers blacklisted I wish I had so few. My list is about 3x yours, but still manageable. It seems to grow by a few CIDs per month or two. It will grow much faster if those guys read this forum and start using a few hundred more spoofed CLID's instead of recycling the old ones..... |
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1 recommendation |
to arpawocky
said by arpawocky:Spoofing isn't necessary to spam. Stopping spoofing won't stop spam. Try to put yourself in the spammer's shoes for a minute... you want to reach the victim, and they might miss your call, so it is helpful to have a good number as the caller id. Besides, some of the spammers get paid for the CNAM dips. Why spoof someone else's number when you can get paid to use your own? Indeed, companies such as CallerID4u are in this business. |
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arpawocky Premium Member join:2014-04-13 Columbus, OH
1 recommendation |
to Ryan Tilton
said by Ryan Tilton: The point of the discussion that I would like to talk about is as VoIP providers move towards lowering their costs to the point of providing free service it invites parties to the public telecom networks that would not normally be there. Such as spammers and hackers because of anonymity and $0 cost. There is no such thing as zero cost.You pay for GV by giving Google the right to use what would be CPNI if you were paying for the service. You pay for Ring.to by letting bandwidth.com use you as a guinie pig. (they say so themselves, but phrase it nicer) You pay for the electricity, and the broadband connectivity, and the equipment. GV, Ring.to, CallCentric, IPKall, etc are NOT the problemRather, they are part of the solution. said by Ryan Tilton:The question and hopefully the core of the discussion is how can this potential problem be fixed? Assumes facts not in evidence. (Assumes, incorrectly no less, that free services are somehow inherently spam enabling) said by Ryan Tilton:Should voip providers be required to register their numbers directly instead of hiding behind a clec? I think you should try it first, and see. |
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cb14 join:2013-02-04 Miami Beach, FL |
to arpawocky
said by arpawocky:Spoofing isn't necessary to spam. Stopping spoofing won't stop spam. Try to put yourself in the spammer's shoes for a minute... you want to reach the victim, and they might miss your call, so it is helpful to have a good number as the caller id. Besides, some of the spammers get paid for the CNAM dips. Why spoof someone else's number when you can get paid to use your own? One reason some spammers do not want to show a real number is the federal Do not call list. But also, a lot of the " spam" is not even a true spam, no real telemarketing, rather pure stalking and terror. |
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to arpawocky
If spoofing didn't exist services like nomorobo would actually work. IPKall and callcentric make their money from intercarrier compensation which is going away by 2020. |
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josephf
Member
2015-Mar-13 12:35 am
said by Ryan Tilton:IPKall and callcentric make their money from intercarrier compensation which is going away by 2020. Intercarrier compensation as a LEC or IXC? |
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to Ryan Tilton
said by Ryan Tilton:IPKall and callcentric make their money from intercarrier compensation which is going away by 2020. That's 100 percent of IPKall's business, but only a small part of CallCentric's overall picture. And IPKall is only an inbound carrier, CallCentric has major outbound calling business---and THAT business benefits from any reduction in intercarrier compensation. said by Ryan Tilton:If spoofing didn't exist services like nomorobo would actually work. If spoofing was banned at 8 AM the crooks would have a work-around by 12 noon. |
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79176722 (banned)VoIP.ms, Magento, and lotsa open tabs join:2015-02-19 Miami, FL 3 edits |
79176722 (banned)
Member
2015-Mar-13 1:02 am
In my case, the DoNotCall registry cuts the vast majority of spam. The remaining tiny bits of spam is apparently generated from overseas and it happens rarely enough to not bother me too much. If it did bother me I'd use some community-based spam reporting & blocking (android) app/method, and tie it together to Asterisk somehow. Then, I'd find out exactly which VoIP providers and/or carriers allow their customers to arbitrarily set any random Caller ID which bypass DoNotCall and try to get the FCC to either prevent them from that ability, or rank/tag it as "unverified", or give me the technological ability to totally block any incoming calls from those specific carriers/providers. But again, it hasn't reached the point that I'd actually bother to invest too much effort in fighting phone spam... Are you guys suffering from serious amounts of phone spam in the USA?! Are all your #'s on the DoNotCall registry?! said by PX Eliezer1:If spoofing was banned at 8 AM the crooks would have a work-around by 12 noon. No, the crooks won't always outsmart the cops. I get exactly zero spam in my Gmail accounts no matter how hard the smartest, most sophisticated spammers of the world will try, and have been trying for many many years. A technological solution can completely eradicate phone spammers with exactly zero downsides for the little user. But anyway, the problem can be broken into bits. First, to make sure the person calling you isn't using spoofed Caller ID, you can have your system attempt to ring-back his # while he's still ringing yours, and I'm pretty sure in the vast majority of cases, that fake Caller ID number will not behave like your average "potential customer/friend/family using a regular phone line". It won't go into voicemail and it won't give you a proper busy. And when it does give you a proper busy, you can see that it remains the same busy even when your system picked up their outgoing call and made a second call to their # to see if behavior changes. Most people have Call Waiting... Also, at the same time, you could do an enhanced CNAM check incl carrier and treat mobile phone users with a higher confidence of not being spammers.... And I'm sure you'll find plenty of clear patterns as to what carriers the spammers are abusing this time around... Score it. You could also hire someone in China to filter your new/unrecognized calls for the huge sum of 5c per call. Your system could pickup and state "please say the name of the person you're trying to reach" and in the vast majority of cases, the Chinese human filter will drop them right there and then for not knowing your name. Now if they do know your name the next question will be "where are you calling from?" and you can have a list of valid companies you deal with. Invalid -- leave your number. Valid - "prove you are calling from that company -- what are the last 4 digits of my account, or the last amount on my bill, or what is an official/verifiable number to call you back at to discuss this matter?" etc, etc, etc... I'd probably have no problem paying some Chinese guy $5/mo to provide me with a squeaky clean phone line. AGAIN, IF I HAD AN ISSUE WITH PHONE SPAM. |
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I get calls from spammers all the time, and its just dead air or a fax tone if I pick up the phone. said by 79176722:But anyway, the problem can be broken into bits. First, to make sure the person calling you isn't using spoofed Caller ID, you can have your system attempt to ring-back his # while he's still ringing yours, and I'm pretty sure in the vast majority of cases, that fake Caller ID number will not behave like your average "potential customer/friend/family using a regular phone line". It won't go into voicemail and it won't give you a proper busy. And when it does give you a proper busy, you can see that it remains the same busy even when your system picked up their outgoing call and made a second call to their # to see if behavior changes. Most people have Call Waiting... I swear Fatman has all the best ideas on this forum. This is exactly what I was looking for. I wonder if this would work... So your saying when you get a call a second call is placed to make sure that that person is actually calling. If it doesn't get a busy signal or voicemail right away it assumes its a spam call. There has got to be a way to perfect this idea. I think its brilliant. |
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79176722 (banned)VoIP.ms, Magento, and lotsa open tabs join:2015-02-19 Miami, FL |
79176722 (banned)
Member
2015-Mar-13 1:37 am
Thanks for the compliments. See my "Chinese guy" suggestion for proof that not all my ideas are so wonderful hehehehe |
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Ha! Your welcome, what do you mean by "Chinese guy" suggestion? |
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79176722 (banned)VoIP.ms, Magento, and lotsa open tabs join:2015-02-19 Miami, FL 1 edit |
79176722 (banned)
Member
2015-Mar-13 1:47 am
My re-re-re-re-edited post. BTW, regarding your specific spam suffering, dead air and a fax tone are both the easiest to automatically detect/reject. Just have your system say "hello?" and only when someone responds say "I am an automated system. Ryan's phone is ringing right now. Let's wait for him to pick up [soft ringback in background throughout the message then becomes louder]". If a fax is detected, then you can choose to receive it (if you're curious like me), or reject it. Dead silence can be treated with fax ANS, as it could be someone with an old fax machine. In fact, I get a strong feeling that your spammed # is close to someone else's fax #. In that case, I'd probably auto-faxback these guys telling them the right fax # to call (after figuring it out). I actually have a similar situation on my toll free # with different people making the exact same mistake with the last digit of the #. Doesn't bother me too much or I'd change my #. |
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arpawocky Premium Member join:2014-04-13 Columbus, OH |
to PX Eliezer1
said by PX Eliezer1:That's 100 percent of IPKall's business, but only a small part of CallCentric's overall picture.
And IPKall is only an inbound carrier, CallCentric has major outbound calling business---and THAT business benefits from any reduction in intercarrier compensation. IPKall is probably a very small part of International Telcom's overall picture too. Kall8 is AFAIK a much bigger part of their business. And Kall8 pays out on both legs of the call (incoming toll free forwarded out to cellphones and landlines). Would CallCentric stop offering free NY DIDs w/o intercarrier compensation? They might , or they might not. They don't get intercarrier compensation on iNUM but they still offer it. Would International Telcom stop offering IPKall? Who knows.. Will intercarrier compensation really even stop in 2020? Will GV really disappear last year? |
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to 79176722
I get calls in the middle of the night and during the day, they are to a toll free number I have. I have reported it to Bandwidth.com's abuse department since the are the RESPORG but nothing has helped so far. Its definately not a fax machine, it just sounds like one. Because it will make noise non-stop for as long as you let it. I thought fax machines need to sync first otherwise the call is ended. I think it has something to do with scammers making money off of the toll free termination. |
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79176722 (banned)VoIP.ms, Magento, and lotsa open tabs join:2015-02-19 Miami, FL |
79176722 (banned)
Member
2015-Mar-13 2:16 am
Sounds like a weird reverse-fax or modem or TTY or something. I wouldn't classify it as purposeful spam. I still think it's someone dialing a similar # to yours, since the vast majority of us toll-free # owners don't experience this same behavior. Or maybe your provider just sucks big time at preventing abuse on his network, which is another good reason to dump the provider and dump the specific toll free #. At least that's what I would do...
...unless I could come up with a sufficiently effective filtering system with very low false-negatives, but more importantly, near-zero false-positives (lost legitimate calls).
Looks like just having a system say "hello?" would solve all your problems. Constant noise (or constant silence) on the line isn't a human response to "hello?" which should be silence, some brief audio, then silence again, awaiting your own response. |
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TrevAcroVoice & DryVoIP Official Rep Premium Member join:2009-06-29 Victoria, BC
1 recommendation |
to Ryan Tilton
said by Ryan Tilton:I get calls in the middle of the night and during the day, they are to a toll free number I have. I have reported it to Bandwidth.com's abuse department since the are the RESPORG but nothing has helped so far. Its definately not a fax machine, it just sounds like one. Because it will make noise non-stop for as long as you let it. I thought fax machines need to sync first otherwise the call is ended. I think it has something to do with scammers making money off of the toll free termination. I see the same thing with several TF numbers I manage and those of my customers. Happens regardless of RESPORG. I have involved carriers, CRTC, and police all to no avail. Early media seems to reduce the frequency of their calls. They like the immediate answer and don't stick around if you leave it for a few seconds. |
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arpawocky Premium Member join:2014-04-13 Columbus, OH |
to Ryan Tilton
said by Ryan Tilton:I get calls in the middle of the night and during the day, they are to a toll free number I have. I have reported it to Bandwidth.com's abuse department since the are the RESPORG but nothing has helped so far. Its definately not a fax machine, it just sounds like one. Because it will make noise non-stop for as long as you let it. I thought fax machines need to sync first otherwise the call is ended. I think it has something to do with scammers making money off of the toll free termination. Could well be. Would these calls be coming from payphone's by chance? said by 79176722:I wouldn't classify it as purposeful spam. I still think it's someone dialing a similar # to yours, since the vast majority of us toll-free # owners don't experience this same behavior. I get calls from disgruntled Wal-Mart customers sometimes to one of my toll-free numbers (Wal-Mart keeps giving it out in error... long story). Sometimes instead of a customer I'll get a Wal-Mart manager calling thinking he's calling his corporate office. For a while it was several times a day. Considered rejecting calls based on Wal-Mart in the CNAM. On another toll-free number I sometimes get folks trying to reach USAC, usually with some question about the lifeline program. Number is not even similar to theirs. Misdials.. |
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