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Body Count
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[Electrical] Fuse replacement or box upgrade?

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My dryer keeps tripping the fuse for the heater side. It says 30 amps on the side but it's two fuses so I'm guessing it's 15 amps per fuse. One fuse runs the dryer drum and everything electrical and the other fuse runs the heater element.

The heater element is what keeps tripping. It used to trip maybe once every 6 months or so but now it's tripping almost every other load. I cleaned the dryer vent tube thinking it was not pushing air out fast enough but that wasn't the issue.

My question is should I just replace the left side fuse with a new one with same amps or should I replace the entire fuse box? The box is full so there's no room to upgrade but I have no plans to add extra electrical lines so a full box doesn't bother me. It's only 100 amp main service right now.

One other question.. if you all think it's best to just replace the one fuse, you think I can do it myself? I mean is it easy enough for someone without an electrical background to do it? I've replaced outlets in my entire house. Having kids I replaced all our outlets with child safety versions so I have a little knowledge. I just dont know if it's against the law to be doing that without being an electrician.

redalert101
@bell.ca

redalert101

Anon

how about just change the entire hydro panel, its common for a lot of people to upgrade their 100amp service to 200 amp hydro service, its the norm now for houses
Body Count
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Because 100 amps is working just fine for me right now and I have no plans to upgrade/add lines. The cost factor would get me. If I can go cheap and replace that one fuse then I will. But if the fuse can't be replaced like if it's not made to be replaced, then I'll upgrade the entire box.

I just need to know if it's easy to replace that one fuse or not.
telco_mtl
join:2012-01-06

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not an electrician, but i do have my inspectors licence, although ive never seen any major issues with bulldog pushmatic panels, the breakers (at least in these parts) are rare as pope shit and ive seen much arcing on the panels when people try remove the covers and the fussy retainers wrap themselves around a wire.

LazMan
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join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA

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Based on your (mis)understanding about how it works - get a pro in...

Breakers can get weak, and open below their rated load - or the breaker could be doing exactly what it should be. It should have some troubleshooting done, before just throwing parts at it, IMO.

That's a vintage (read OLD) style of panel - parts are likely either expensive, grey-market/used, or tough to get... And probably some combination of all 3.

Get someone in to look at it - if they suggest replacement, get a 2nd and possibly 3rd quote - around these parts, panel swap would be in the $1000-$2000 range.
Body Count
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said by LazMan:

Based on your (mis)understanding about how it works - get a pro in...

What am I misunderstanding? Can you inform me so I know?

cybersaga
join:2011-12-19
Selby, ON

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said by Body Count:

I just need to know if it's easy to replace that one fuse or not.

Replacing one fuse should be easy. I'm sure you can find a YouTube video. But there's probably something wrong with your dryer if it's blowing the fuse.
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said by cybersaga:

said by Body Count:

I just need to know if it's easy to replace that one fuse or not.

Replacing one fuse should be easy. I'm sure you can find a YouTube video. But there's probably something wrong with your dryer if it's blowing the fuse.

Not sure if it's the dryer. It's been blowing the fuse since we bought it new, granted it was rare back then. I just assumed the 15 amp fuse was too small for it. Now that's it's happening more often, I just thought the fuse is going bad.

LazMan
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join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA

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said by Body Count:

said by LazMan:

Based on your (mis)understanding about how it works - get a pro in...

What am I misunderstanding? Can you inform me so I know?

It's breakers, not fuses, it's not 15A x 2 to make 30A; it's a dual-pole 30A breaker...
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said by LazMan:

It's breakers, not fuses, it's not 15A x 2 to make 30A; it's a dual-pole 30A breaker...

Sorry for not using the correct term. I see them as fuses like what's in my car. I understand what they are.

As for the dual pole 30A, that I did not know. Saw two breakers and thought it was 15 each to make 30. Thought they were split because only one side to trip and the other would be fine so my dryer would keep running but there was no heat.

cybersaga
join:2011-12-19
Selby, ON

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said by Body Count:

It says 30 amps on the side but it's two fuses so I'm guessing it's 15 amps per fuse.

It's 30 Amps per fuse. That's called a double-pole fuse. Your house is fed by two "poles", each of 120V, but when used together make 240V. Dryers (or any heating element like stoves/water heaters/furnaces) use 240V. A double-pole fuse (or breaker) feeds 240V to that appliance.
said by Body Count:

One fuse runs the dryer drum and everything electrical and the other fuse runs the heater element.

Both together (without the neutral) run the heater element at 240V. One of the poles, used with the neutral (the white wire) feed the other electrical components at 120V.

If only one side of the fuse blew, that's why you would not have heat: the heater element no longer has any power at all.

LazMan
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said by Body Count:

said by LazMan:

It's breakers, not fuses, it's not 15A x 2 to make 30A; it's a dual-pole 30A breaker...

Sorry for not using the correct term. I see them as fuses like what's in my car. I understand what they are.

As for the dual pole 30A, that I did not know. Saw two breakers and thought it was 15 each to make 30. Thought they were split because only one side to trip and the other would be fine so my dryer would keep running but there was no heat.

No need to be sorry - I'm just saying you don't understand enough about it, to safely change a breaker or panel, yourself; IMO...

cybersaga
join:2011-12-19
Selby, ON

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Here's some reading on the subject: »dcknives.blogspot.ca/p/t ··· ves.html

The bottom line is, the problem could be: the fuse, the dryer, or the wiring. The trick is figuring out which one.

With older panels, it's a good idea to have someone who has seen those panels before take a look at it to see if it's nearing the end of its life.
Body Count
join:2010-09-11
Columbus, OH

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Will I need a permit to replace the entire panel? I needed one when I replaced my water heater but didn't need one when I had my whole house water filtration system installed.

cybersaga
join:2011-12-19
Selby, ON

cybersaga

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Probably, but I can't say for certain. It's a state thing, or can even be a municipal thing, so I can't say what's required for you. You could start by looking up the website for the electrical authority in Ohio.

Here in Ontario, a home owner can do electrical work on their own house (as long as it is not a rental property), but must pay to get it inspected by the Electrical Safety Authority. The rules are often similar in other places.
cybersaga

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Be careful if you do your own electrical. Don't assume that because something doesn't explode immediately that it won't be a danger later. Get a copy of the code (NEC). Sometimes you can find simplified versions of the code too, but it's good to have the actual code. Understand why the code says what it says before going ahead.

Especially if you're getting into stuff that's new for you, get it inspected by whatever authority you need to, or if you're not required to, give an electrician $100 to look over your work.

StillLearn
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join:2002-03-21
Streamwood, IL

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said by cybersaga:

Get a copy of the code (NEC). Sometimes you can find simplified versions of the code too, but it's good to have the actual code. Understand why the code says what it says before going ahead.

That is not up to your usually good advice. The NEC code is expensive and very difficult to read. I suspect you want to motivate the OP to call an electrician.

On the other hand, you did not lead with that, and may have correctly figured out that this is not going to be a good DIY for the OP.

cybersaga
join:2011-12-19
Selby, ON

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said by StillLearn:

The NEC code is expensive and very difficult to read.

I'm serious about that bit. Depending on your conscience, the current code can be "acquired" online. And if reading the code is above your head, then so is electrical work. That's my take anyway.
said by StillLearn:

usually good advice

I'll take that as a compliment I'll go back to my day job before that changes.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

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said by Body Count:

My dryer keeps tripping the fuse for the heater side.

Because one has to perform this test with the circuit energized, have an electrician check the current draw through the wire connected to the circuit breaker that keeps tripping with a clamp on amp meter. Have the electrician see if the heater current exceeds the current handling capacity of the circuit breaker. It might take some time to diagnose the problem if there is an intermittent short between ground (chassis) and the heating element.

StillLearn
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I don't know if it is the right part or if the problem is a breaker problem, but I see a used "Pushmatic Bulldog Circuit Breaker 2P 30A ... P230 ... ZF-32A" offered for 14.50 plus tax on ebay.

Jack in VA
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join:2014-07-07
North, VA

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said by Mr Matt:

said by Body Count:

My dryer keeps tripping the fuse for the heater side.

Because one has to perform this test with the circuit energized, have an electrician check the current draw through the wire connected to the circuit breaker that keeps tripping with a clamp on amp meter. Have the electrician see if the heater current exceeds the current handling capacity of the circuit breaker. It might take some time to diagnose the problem if there is an intermittent short between ground (chassis) and the heating element.

If one leg of the 240 volt circuit breaker is tripping but the other leg is still feeding the dryer motor and controls most likely it's the breaker because....the same current plus motor and controls is not tripping the other leg unless it's something strange about those breakers.
harald
join:2010-10-22
Columbus, OH

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Wow. To begin with, the dryer should be on a two-pole 30a breaker, not two separate 30a one-pole breakers.

You need a competent electrician, with a license.

Columbus has a very aggressive code enforcement department. The electrician I worked for ( and installed a whole bunch of pushmatic panels) ended up as the chief electrical for columbus, now retired.

nunya
LXI 483
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join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
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What you have is a Pushmatic (Junk-o-matic) breaker panel. They were originally made by "Bulldog", later by ITE (now Siemens). They are the third worst panel besides Federal Pacific and Zinsco. The "saving grace" of Pushmatic: They fail open instead of closed (Zinsco and FPE both fail closed, or "fail to trip").

The biggest problem with Pushmatic breakers is that many of them only have a thermal trip and lack a magnetic trip. Modern circuit breakers have a thermal-magnetic trip.
With a thermal trip only, you have to wait for things to literally "heat up" before the breaker opens the circuit.
Thermal-magnetic breakers can trip thermally, or by a magnetic trip mechanism (think "short circuit"). Thermal-magnetic breakers provide the near instantaneous trip we are used to.

Right now you have one of two possible problems:
#1) The breaker is weak and barely latching - not uncommon with junk-o-matic.
#2) The dryer has a problem and is actually overloading the circuit. An ammeter will provide the quick answer.

It's time to replace that panel, regardless. You'll need a licensed electrician that can pull the permit and make arrangements with the power company and municipality.
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I've been looking at panels to buy. Is this a good brand and price?

»www.menards.com/main/p-2 ··· 6437.htm

and I always wanted a whole house surge protector and if I'm replacing the main breaker box then I might as well get that as well.

»www.menards.com/main/ele ··· 4117.htm

nunya
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nunya

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You need to consult with a licensed electrician in your area.
walta
join:2001-05-22
Saint Louis, MO

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Ouch
Since you have already replaced the circuit breaker once it is very unlikely the problem is the breaker you replaced.

Are you sure you have an electric dryer? The arrow in your photo points to 120 volt breaker. The kind a gas dryer would use, an electric dryer should have a larger breaker like the one labeled Air Conditioner. If you have an electric dryer and it is connected to the breaker with the arrow, it is likely also connected to another breaker to get 240. That would be a code violation and an indication that your panel is overloaded as there is no room to fit a legal breaker.

My guess is there is a short in the dryer that will require repair or replacement and the panel is in violation of the code and should be replaced.

Do you understand that when you changed the breaker if you happened to slip and touch a tool to the wrong spots it could explode in a fire ball? But I am guessing you do not and I am afraid for you.»www.arcadvisor.com/faq/e ··· ion.html

I am certain the city of Columbus will require a permit to replace the panel. They will not give a permit to anyone without an electrical license.

Against the law? YES

Walta

Anonymous_
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join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1

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Anonymous_

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he's going to start a fire

It's shutting off to protect wires from starting a fire

most electric dryers are 120v- 20amps 2300w to (240v)5600 watts.. 40amps

Sure the model if this Dryer would help..

most likely the wires and breaker are undersized with 15amp when 20 amp is required for the dryer

surely it would be helpful to have the make and model of the dryer
rody_44
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join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA

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If you get a electrician out hes going to want to upgrade it for sure. Going to be against code to repair or replace that breaker. Ide look for a friend to help you out. Its not rocket science. The alternative is going to be some type of upgrade and you are not getting away with 1000.00 to upgrade to 200 amp service. In real world when all said and done more like 3 grand and yes a permit will be required if you go that route. Inspections to.
uniden9
join:2009-08-04
Birmingham, AL

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Well when you get into panels of that age, its going to be hard to put a standard price tag on its replacement. You know, you are going to run into some extenuating circumstances, that have to be handled. Knob and tube, nm style of cable with no ground, cloth wrapped cable, ect. If you get into these older specialty cables, the cost could rise quit a bit. The good news is, you can get a licensed electrician or two, to look it over, for very little money. They will be glad to give you replacement quote, and you can either allow them to do the work, or live with the problem. I know some people seem to think, to get a quote for a statement of work, you have to follow through with the work. You do not, but that is the only way to get an idea of the cost involved. I agree with the others, I would either replace the panel or start saving to replace the panel, when I can afford to do so.
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This is the best advice you will get and the price was right.
Now go do the right thing.