dslreports logo
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc
Search similar:


uniqs
6060

mackey
Premium Member
join:2007-08-20

mackey to Body Count

Premium Member

to Body Count

Re: [Electrical] Fuse replacement or box upgrade?

said by Body Count:

My old A/C breaker was on a 40 amp but he placed it on a 30 amp breaker because of the wire gauge.

There's actually a loophole in the code which allows a larger breaker for motor loads (which is what an A/C is considered). If the A/C nameplate says it draws <=30A FLA but allows a max breaker of 45A then you can use a 45A breaker even if the wiring is only rated for 30A.

Anyway, enjoy your new panel!

John97
Over The Hills And Far Away
Premium Member
join:2000-11-14
Spring Hill, FL

John97 to Body Count

Premium Member

to Body Count
Glad you're squared away with a proper fix! Good luck.
Quattrohead
Premium Member
join:2005-02-09

Quattrohead to Body Count

Premium Member

to Body Count
Good work, I am sure this was the best way to go.
Now lets have some fun and show us the insides LOL

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO

3 recommendations

nunya to Body Count

MVM

to Body Count

I asked about a permit. He said he only needed a permit if I was upgrading the service.

I think you were probably lied to.
Body Count
join:2010-09-11
Columbus, OH
Netgear CM1000
Ubiquiti EdgeRouter ER-4
Ubiquiti U6-Pro

Body Count

Member

said by nunya:


I asked about a permit. He said he only needed a permit if I was upgrading the service.

I think you were probably lied to.

Well I have the receipt. If I get in trouble, I'll show them this company did it and they didn't get a permit for it.

John97
Over The Hills And Far Away
Premium Member
join:2000-11-14
Spring Hill, FL

John97

Premium Member

said by Body Count:

Well I have the receipt. If I get in trouble, I'll show them this company did it and they didn't get a permit for it.

Company? Was it a licensed electrician or a handyman?
Body Count
join:2010-09-11
Columbus, OH
Netgear CM1000
Ubiquiti EdgeRouter ER-4
Ubiquiti U6-Pro

1 edit

Body Count

Member

said by John97:

Company? Was it a licensed electrician or a handyman?

It's a home improvement company that does everything including electrical work.

Got a breakdown of what he did on the receipt.
Body Count

Body Count to Quattrohead

Member

to Quattrohead
Click for full size
said by Quattrohead:

Good work, I am sure this was the best way to go.
Now lets have some fun and show us the insides LOL

harald
join:2010-10-22
Columbus, OH

1 edit

harald to nunya

Member

to nunya
The business is run from a residence.

Permit and inspection required.

Shame he didn't leave some open slots.

Glad he replaces the old panel.
Body Count
join:2010-09-11
Columbus, OH
Netgear CM1000
Ubiquiti EdgeRouter ER-4
Ubiquiti U6-Pro

Body Count

Member

said by harald:

The business is run from a residence.

Permit and inspection required.

Shame he didn't leave some open slots.

Glad he replaces the old panel.

You would think they wouldn't risk a hefty fine for cheating like that if one was required. I mean I made sure to ask and he made sure I knew I didn't need one unless I was upgrading from 100 amp to 200 amp or if I was adding more lines. Looking at their previous jobs they look like they know what they are doing.

I couldn't find anything about electrical code in Columbus Ohio or Franklin County online.

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO

nunya

MVM

That panel probably wouldn't have passed inspection. They made some amateur mistakes: Grounded (Neutral) conductors need to be under their own terminal screw. White wires need to be reidentified when used as an ungrounded conductor.
Body Count
join:2010-09-11
Columbus, OH
Netgear CM1000
Ubiquiti EdgeRouter ER-4
Ubiquiti U6-Pro

Body Count

Member

said by nunya:

That panel probably wouldn't have passed inspection. They made some amateur mistakes: Grounded (Neutral) conductors need to be under their own terminal screw. White wires need to be reidentified when used as an ungrounded conductor.

I'll contact him tomorrow to see what he says about it. Last thing I need is to sell the house and the inspector the buyer brought in telling me to fix this before the deal can close.

I see there's plenty of room for grounded wires as I see most of the screws not even being used.
Body Count

Body Count to nunya

Member

to nunya
Click for full size
Just wanted to make sure what he did wasn't up to code. It looks like he doubled up one time on each side but the rest of them he did one white neutral with one green ground per screw.

This won't pass inspection?
harald
join:2010-10-22
Columbus, OH

harald to Body Count

Member

to Body Count
said by Body Count:

I couldn't find anything about electrical code in Columbus Ohio or Franklin County online.

»columbus.gov/WorkArea/Do ··· id=67450

mackey
Premium Member
join:2007-08-20

mackey to Body Count

Premium Member

to Body Count
I can't tell from the pics is that service entrance cable is aluminum or tinned copper. If aluminum you need anti-oxidant compound on the connections.

mattmag

join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois

mattmag to Body Count

to Body Count
said by Body Count:

It looks like he doubled up one time on each side but the rest of them he did one white neutral with one green ground per screw.

He doubled up each time you see the bare ground wire secured under the same screw as the white wire. In other words, pretty much all of them.
Body Count
join:2010-09-11
Columbus, OH
Netgear CM1000
Ubiquiti EdgeRouter ER-4
Ubiquiti U6-Pro

Body Count to nunya

Member

to nunya
Talked to him over the phone.

He's going to check on the permit on Monday if one is needed. He quickly said the price quoted was without a permit though.

About the doubling up of the neutral wire, he said the ones with one ground and one neutral they always do that and there is nothing wrong with it because both wires are coming from the same circuit. He made sure I knew they do this on every job they do. As for the one double neutral on each side, he didn't want to splice the wire and there was no length in the wire so he decided to double up once on each side. He said a non-spliced connection is better overall than doubling up. He picked the lesser of two evils basically.

I told him I just didn't want a home inspector to come in when I'm selling the home and tell me I have to get it fixed before the buyer signs the contract. He said that won't happen .. then he laughed about it.

mix
join:2002-03-19
Romeo, MI
GL.iNet GL-B1300
Netgear CM500

mix

Member

said by Body Count:

I told him I just didn't want a home inspector to come in when I'm selling the home and tell me I have to get it fixed before the buyer signs the contract. He said that won't happen .. then he laughed about it.

Maybe if you put a fake inspection sticker on it.

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

3 recommendations

nunya to Body Count

MVM

to Body Count
Splicing the neutrals (grounded conductor) and terminating them individually is preferable to ganging up terminals.
It's a violation of 408.41:
Grounded Conductor Terminations. Each grounded conductor SHALL terminate within the panelboard in an INDIVIDUAL terminal that is not also used for another conductor.

When the code book says "shall", it means no ifs, ands, or buts. Your guy is wrong.

By a technicality, it is not a violation to gang ground wires, provided the terminal is listed for more than one wire. This only applies to ground wires.
These days most quality panels come with plenty of neutral and ground terminals.

It looks as if your service entrance cable is probably aluminum (it could be tinned copper, but it's hard to tell from photo). They didn't use any oxide inhibitor, which can cause problems.

I'll bet this wass the scenario. Dude shows up in big rush. Pops the meter himself. Swaps out the panel in 4 hours, slaps the meter back in, and sticks you with a $900+ bill.
My guess is you never saw the power company that day because they would have made him have an inspection before turning the power back on.

Not having to wait around for the power company or inspector, he should have taken about $300 off your bill.
nunya

3 recommendations

nunya to Body Count

MVM

to Body Count
Always be wary of guys who say they can do "everything". They are usually the ones who can botch anything.

LazMan
Premium Member
join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA

2 recommendations

LazMan to Body Count

Premium Member

to Body Count
Not for nothing; but if he has to check if a permit is needed; he's probably not a sparky.

For instance, I -know- I need an electrical inspection for a panel change here... Costs $154, and needs to be booked about a week ahead.

Edit - also require a minimum of 2 empty spaces in a new panel install here; for growth. Doubt that's a code requiremebt where you are; but it's certainly not a bad idea to leave room to expand.
Body Count
join:2010-09-11
Columbus, OH
Netgear CM1000
Ubiquiti EdgeRouter ER-4
Ubiquiti U6-Pro

Body Count

Member

I think I'm just going to get him to sign something saying he'll fix it (double neutral grounds) anytime in the future for free in case future owners request it fixed. That's the only thing I'm really concerned about here. I do not want to have to pay another guy to come out to resolve it in order to sell my house, if I ever do sell. I have no plans on selling right now.

John Galt6
Forward, March
Premium Member
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp

John Galt6

Premium Member

He should have just put a couple of short grounding bars in the top corners for the grounds and landed the neutrals on the neutral bus. That's fine if the bonding screw is installed.
lawsoncl
join:2008-10-28
Spirit Lake, ID

1 edit

lawsoncl to Body Count

Member

to Body Count
Is that a 12-gauge wire landed on the 30-amp breaker on the right, in addition to the wiring for what looks like the dryer plug that was on the lower right? Can't quite tell where the second of the pair black wires on the left go, are they sharing that 20-amp breaker? I agree, the panel is too small if he's already putting duplex breakers in there because its full. Didn't bother to label the breakers other than the range, ac and dryer.

I would actually call the county inspector, act innocent, and ask if you were supposed to get an inspection. Then have the inspector force him to come back and do it to code.
Body Count
join:2010-09-11
Columbus, OH
Netgear CM1000
Ubiquiti EdgeRouter ER-4
Ubiquiti U6-Pro

Body Count

Member

I just realized the guy took my old pushmatic box and breakers with him when he left. WTF. Checking ebay those breakers even in used condition would sell for maybe $50-$100 total.. the box itself could sell for $50. The 100 amp breaker alone sells for $30-$50.

Need to call him again tomorrow and tell him I want it back.

hortnut
Huh?
join:2005-09-25
PDX Metro

2 recommendations

hortnut to Body Count

Member

to Body Count
said by Body Count:

I think I'm just going to get him to sign something saying he'll fix it (double neutral grounds) anytime in the future for free in case future owners request it fixed. That's the only thing I'm really concerned about here. I do not want to have to pay another guy to come out to resolve it in order to sell my house, if I ever do sell. I have no plans on selling right now.

.
.
Can you guarantee they will still be in business when you wish to sell in the future? Will he still be working for them? Just get it fixed the "right" way now!

And maybe if they are, will the others with this Business agree to uphold "HIS" agreement with you? Especially if there is a question of code and legality?

Maybe it is time to talk with the "REAL OWNER" of the business. I smell a rat and see a rat's nest from your recent photos. Were they Insured and Bonded?

I have had 200 Amp Panels installed by myself that needed approval from the Power Company before they would trench and lay 300+ feet of conduit and wire, as well as deal with the Permitting Process with the County. Both times, it was not within a City but an unincorporated area in the County. Next one I did, I hired it out [learned that I made more money growing plants then being an Electrician, plus rules change all the time] and made sure the Installer pulled the Permits. It too, was in an unincorporated portion of another County.

To address your mention of selling in the future, here is my perspective: I am in the middle of selling two Houses of an Estate that would be considered "starter homes" and the main House. The Inspectors for the Buyer's can be tough. And if the buyer becomes skittish, they will back out at the slightest imperfection. And the Earnest Money goes with them in my area. On one House I am replacing a Zinsco Panel ahead of time. Plus I have all of the other systems of the Houses to deal with. What I am trying to get across, if a Buyer gets a whiff of one thing wrong and covered up, then they will doubt all the Systems within a House and most likely back out. I know I have done that when buying property. I have gone to the extreme of having "Presell" Inspections on all 3. Costs a few bucks, but pulling that out during negotiations, is a strong selling point. And it shows the buyers that I care.

cybersaga
join:2011-12-19
Selby, ON

cybersaga to Body Count

Member

to Body Count
said by Body Count:

I just realized the guy took my old pushmatic box and breakers with him when he left. WTF. Checking ebay those breakers even in used condition would sell for maybe $50-$100 total.. the box itself could sell for $50. The 100 amp breaker alone sells for $30-$50.

Need to call him again tomorrow and tell him I want it back.

Yeah, I made a good $100 off my old breakers. The main breaker alone got me $50. Different brand though: Stab-Lok (the Canadian ones).

I think most contractors just assume that most people don't care to deal with the stuff coming out. Although when I had my furnace replaced, the contractor asked if I wanted the old one.

Cho Baka
MVM
join:2000-11-23
there

Cho Baka to Body Count

MVM

to Body Count
So, you are going to resell some questionable/borderline breakers?
Body Count
join:2010-09-11
Columbus, OH
Netgear CM1000
Ubiquiti EdgeRouter ER-4
Ubiquiti U6-Pro

Body Count

Member

said by Cho Baka:

So, you are going to resell some questionable/borderline breakers?

Not the dryer breaker which was already failing. The others though I've had zero issues with for the past five years.
Body Count

Body Count to hortnut

Member

to hortnut
I have him coming back to resolve the double neutral issue. There's only two circuits with two neutrals together which he said he'll splice to make longer and screw them into their own hole. He'll do this for free.

But he refuses to fix the ground/neutral on same terminal issue stating that is perfectly legal since they are both on the same circuit. If I want to pay for an inspection I can and the inspector will not find that wrong. He said he can install another grounding bar up top for all the green grounds but it will cost me more than what an inspection would cost so he suggests to get it inspected so I know it's legal.

I was fine with his free resolution. At least that will be fixed. As for the grounds.. I really don't want to pay more money to maybe find what he said was true. Maybe in Columbus it's legal to do this. I don't know.