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SemiDriven
join:2015-03-29
Milwaukee, WI

SemiDriven

Member

Burying phone/cable lines from pole to house

Greetings,

1st post here! (not sure if this the best spot to post this topic)

Scenario: My family is moving this summer into my wife’s Aunt’s house to take care of her in Milwaukee, WI. We are building an addition to her home to accommodate all of us and updating everything in the process. There is currently AT&T phone service at the property and we will be transferring over our Time Warner Cable service to that property. So, we will be using both AT&T and Time Warner Cable for the foreseeable future.

I want to bury 2” Schedule 80 PVC pipe (roughly 100 feet) and include in it both AT&T and Time Warner lines.

Question: What type of lines do I need?

AT&T: CAT6 — possibly CAT5e.

Time Warner Cable: RG11-U — possibly RG6-U since a) it’s good up to 150’ and b) it’s more flexible.

My goal is to use the latest technology advancements so that I’m set (relatively speaking) for the next 10-15 years before having to upgrade (presumably to a fiber optic line). Now that I think about it, perhaps I should bury a single mode fiber optic cable to be ready for that day. Hmmm….

Am I on the right track? Am I missing anything?

Heck, will AT&T or Time Warner Cable even allow me to bury the cable from the pole to the house??? (I haven’t yet been able to contact them due to a busy schedule).

Thanks in advance for any advice you provide!

davidg
Good Bye My Friend
MVM
join:2002-06-15
00000

davidg

MVM

they won't use your line, they may not even use your conduit nor allow for a shared conduit. You need to call them and place an order to have the services buried, see what they require out of you and what they will allow on your part.
SemiDriven
join:2015-03-29
Milwaukee, WI

SemiDriven

Member

Bummer! Hoping to save money. Oh well....

Thanks for responding!
LittleBill
join:2013-05-24

LittleBill

Member

i don't agree at all, i would call and ask, have them put the demarc's at a pole, then they won't care at all.

alot of rules change when they get onsite and cash comes out of your pocket

Nixx
@att.net

Nixx

Anon

At no point would at&t put service on a cat 6 line going to a home, the best option here would be to put in the conduit, preferably 3in, then microduct within that with pull strings, the providers can pick a string and pull there own lines upto the home. Microduct would further protect individual lines from interference, as well as protect them from any water that may enter the duct

tp0d
yabbazooie
Premium Member
join:2001-02-13
Bulger, PA

tp0d to SemiDriven

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When I had my fios installed, I ran my own cat5e line to the old NID, and terminated it...

They used the cat5, but chopped off my terminations.. I dunno..

this was in feb of 08, they also lounged around my woodburner in the basement.. heh

-j

tschmidt
MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Consolidated Com..
·Republic Wireless
·Hollis Hosting

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Welcome to DSL Reports

When we built our house service is aerial for 400 feet then underground the final 200. This was the days before Cable, I called the phone company and they dropped off a spool of direct burial 5-pair cable and told me to drop it in the trench and let them know when I wanted it connected. I tried to keep it as far away from power feed as possible.

I also has some left over 1" polyethylene pipe so I dropped that in the trench as a conduit.

Call your local phone and cable company and ask about underground cabling requirements. Find out what each one wants for conduit and if they use direct burial will they just give you the wire so you can drop it in the trench. They probably will not want to share the same conduit, but as Nixx posted may be willing to go with single conduit and microduct.

If you ever think you might want to run your own stuff underground drop another conduit. I just used the one I installed 30 years ago to add a PIR sensor and LED yard light to the pole before underground section. Much cheaper to do it now then digging another trench.

You did not mention power but since you are going to the expense to bury phone and cable I assume you are also burying electric service.

Don't forget the caution tape in the trench

My not be relevant to your situation but I also dropped a water line for an outdoor faucet a hundred feet in front of the house, comes in handy for watering.

/tom

SemiDriven
join:2015-03-29
Milwaukee, WI

SemiDriven to Nixx

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to Nixx
So if I'm hearing you correctly, put a microduct (??) with pull string(s) into a 3" conduit and AT&T MAY be OK with that. Is a microduct another name for a 2" PVC pipe?

tigerpaw509
join:2011-01-19

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Only one demarc for telco will be at main/existing home.If you want to bury a cable to cottage its your wire and can use whatever you want they will use it as its on your side of the demarc.
SemiDriven
join:2015-03-29
Milwaukee, WI

SemiDriven to tschmidt

Member

to tschmidt
Thanks for the welcome and the advice!

Getting a hold of the right people at the local phone/cable company can be a royal pain in the you-know-what. But it's got to be done.

The plan is to dig one trench 2-feet beside the other trench where the electric company buried the power line. I figure I'll go 24-30" down, drop in a UF electrical line (lighting/receptacles for the shed). After Mr. Sparky signs off on it (electrical inspector), I'll throw 12-inches of dirt in and then drop in the conduit for the phone/cable. Then more dirt, caution tape, and more dirt on top of the whole shebang. And then have an adult beverage. : )

I'll definitely have to ask the telco and cableco about inserting a microduct into a conduit and see if they will play nice together (having both lines in the same tube). Of course they might just give me the direct burial material and tell me to drop it in the trench as you suggest. I'll have to think that over a bit. We have voles (similar to moles) in the back yard where we will be moving to. These critters can burrow down 22-inches so I'm a little hesitant to use direct burial line above 24-inches down. I sure don't want to be doing this all over again in a few years!

I've thought about laying another empty conduit line for the future but the budget is getting tighter and tighter. So, I thought I'd just bury a bigger conduit with a pull string (or 2) that could handle fiber optic if/when it ever comes to town.
SemiDriven

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to tigerpaw509
Good to know.

Our "cottage" will contain the lawnmower and other assorted lawn equipment.

Not sure the Mrs. would want a telephone in the shed. : )
lawsoncl
join:2008-10-28
Spirit Lake, ID

lawsoncl

Member

said by SemiDriven:

Not sure the Mrs. would want a telephone in the shed. : )

You might if you ever end up in the "doghouse" :}

John Galt6
Forward, March
Premium Member
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp

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This has been pretty standard fare for as long as I can remember...




I'd do 2-2" conduit for the low voltage...as far apart horizontally in the trench as possible. There might be an issue mixing the services, so best to not go there.

Note the requirement for long radius sweeps...
SemiDriven
join:2015-03-29
Milwaukee, WI

SemiDriven

Member

Very helpful -- thanks!

Need to find a trencher that will go at least 30" deep (haven't trenched before). I'm hoping the big-box stores have one to rent for that purpose.

I'm not sure I need a 2nd conduit for a low voltage application -- one should suffice (or maybe I'm misreading what you are saying).

As far as mixing services, I assume you are talking about combining the low voltage lines with the phone/cable lines. I'm planning on putting the phone/cable lines in the same conduit above the low voltage line if the power's that be don't have a major conniption.

burner50
Proud Union THUG
Premium Member
join:2002-06-05
Iowa

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Odds are, they won't use your lines.

They'll likely want to use their own direct burial lines instead of your conduit.

You'll likely be able to talk them into doing the burial yourself (utilizing your own conduit), but I'm sure they'll insist on using their own lines.
SemiDriven
join:2015-03-29
Milwaukee, WI

SemiDriven

Member

Yep...you're probably right.

Heck, whether they pull their line through my conduit or have me pull their line through my conduit, it's a win-win as far as I'm concerned.

burner50
Proud Union THUG
Premium Member
join:2002-06-05
Iowa

burner50

Premium Member

said by SemiDriven:

Yep...you're probably right.

Heck, whether they pull their line through my conduit or have me pull their line through my conduit, it's a win-win as far as I'm concerned.

You'll probably have the best luck talking to the guy actually doing the trenching.

stevek1949
We're not in Kansas anymore
Premium Member
join:2002-11-13
Virginia Beach, VA

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You may also want to contact the city/town to see if there are any restrictions as far as placement into utility easements witin the property. The may also be depth requirements.

Just an idea.

Welcome to DSLR!

Grumpy4
Premium Member
join:2001-07-28
NW CT

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Just a thought for the future - both the power company and the cable company did a half-assed job of covering the exposed ends of the conduits, so I surely must have rain water in both. In hindsight, I wish I had applied a small amount of expanding foam or the like to all four openings. The thought of bringing in a very large air compressor to blow the 300' lines has crossed my mind when I look at the open tubes. Not sure my little portable compressor would have any affect on a run that long.

Oh well...
SemiDriven
join:2015-03-29
Milwaukee, WI

SemiDriven

Member

That's a good idea if you don't have any pull strings in the conduit for future plans!

Thanks for the head's up -- I definitely will be putting tin cans (or plastic bags) over the loose ends once the conduit/cable is in the ground.
SemiDriven

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to stevek1949
Yep...on the "to do" list. Thanks!
mocycler
Premium Member
join:2001-01-22

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They will let you bury the cable, but as mentioned, they are not going to let you supply the cabling. And they aren't going to do it for free.

Running it through a conduit is overkill, in my opinion. Both AT&T and Time Warner have outdoor-rated cable that can be buried in plain dirt. This is done all the time and it works just fine. Burying 100 feet of PVC on your own is a fairly large & expensive project with no real benefit. You may also run into permitting issues depending on where you are and what you exactly want to do.

If you insist on doing this anyway, you can ask that the DMARC/NETPOP/customer interface be located at the bottom of the pole or some other nearby point (they should be able to do this). The downside is that everything past that point will be considered CPIW (Customer Provided Inside Wire). If something goes wrong on your side of the interface (which includes the buried pipe), either fix it yourself or pay them big $$ to figure it out for you.

Welcome to the forum. Hope this is helpful.

burner50
Proud Union THUG
Premium Member
join:2002-06-05
Iowa

1 recommendation

burner50

Premium Member

said by mocycler:

If you insist on doing this anyway, you can ask that the DMARC/NETPOP/customer interface be located at the bottom of the pole or some other nearby point (they should be able to do this). The downside is that everything past that point will be considered CPIW (Customer Provided Inside Wire). If something goes wrong on your side of the interface (which includes the buried pipe), either fix it yourself or pay them big $$ to figure it out for you.

Might be do-able for phone, but for cable, I believe most places, code states that the cable system must share a common ground with the electrical system. I know the cable company I worked for considered the ground block the "demarcation point", and they would not put it at the pole.
SemiDriven
join:2015-03-29
Milwaukee, WI

SemiDriven to mocycler

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to mocycler
said by mocycler:

Running it through a conduit is overkill, in my opinion. Both AT&T and Time Warner have outdoor-rated cable that can be buried in plain dirt. This is done all the time and it works just fine. Burying 100 feet of PVC on your own is a fairly large & expensive project with no real benefit. You may also run into permitting issues depending on where you are and what you exactly want to do.

Thank you for the advice and welcome! Using outdoor/underground rated cable would definitely make it easier in time, labor and expense. My primary objectives for using conduit are 1) making it relatively easy to add additional line (such as fiber optic cable) down the road via pull string and 2) keeping critters from gnawing through the cable. I'm using one trench with UF electric line buried deep and the phone/cable line 12-18" above that. Since voles can tunnel up to 22" down, they could easily make mince-meat of the phone/cable line.

I sent an email to city government asking for direction regarding code for this project as well as any restrictions (e.g. placement into utility easements on the property). I'm still one month or so away from trenching so I've got time to continue pondering this headache...er...project!
SemiDriven

SemiDriven to burner50

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to burner50
said by mocycler:

If you insist on doing this anyway, you can ask that the DMARC/NETPOP/customer interface be located at the bottom of the pole or some other nearby point (they should be able to do this). The downside is that everything past that point will be considered CPIW (Customer Provided Inside Wire). If something goes wrong on your side of the interface (which includes the buried pipe), either fix it yourself or pay them big $$ to figure it out for you.

said by burner50:

Might be do-able for phone, but for cable, I believe most places, code states that the cable system must share a common ground with the electrical system. I know the cable company I worked for considered the ground block the "demarcation point", and they would not put it at the pole.

Good stuff to consider regarding placement of the DMARC/NETPOP location.

I'll see what the cable company says....I'm currently leaning towards the DMARC/NETPOP device installed on the new addition and having the phone company run their cable through my conduit with a pull-string that I've put in place IF they allow that. Then either the cable company or I will pull the cable line through.
SemiDriven

SemiDriven

Member

Update…

Got the trench dug. It is 18-24 inches in depth.

The plan again is to drop 10-gauge 3-strand UF electric line in the bottom of the trench. This is followed by 12” of dirt (with a danger ribbon). Then the conduit for the phone/cable lines will go in followed by 6” of dirt (and another danger ribbon).

FWIW, I learned a few rules trenching with a rented DitchWitch.
1. Don’t trench a day or two after a monsoon.
2. Don’t get to close to ground that has already been trenched. Tires will sink in and not have any grip.
3. Don’t listen to your wife when she says start at the other end and meet at the trench line you’ve already dug.
4. If you actually listen to your wife and ignore your gut, you will likely get the trencher stuck at a 45-degree angle when attempting to exit the trench — especially when you’ve already broken the first 2-rules.
5. Clay soil sucks. You don’t know how much it sucks until you have to clean the blades off to avoid a $200.00 fee for not having the machine looking just like it was when you picked it up.

’Twas a day. Buy hey, still got the trencher back in 4-hours!!! And my wife and I are still married!

After all that, I still had to go back and do some manual trenching in some spots. Did I mention that clay soil sucks?!

My plan this week is to drop the UF line into the trench and have schedule-80 PVC 1 1/4” pipe coming out of the trench by the outbuilding and house. After this is done and inspected then the 1 1/2” schedule-80 PVC pipe will be assembled and buried. The phone company told me to go ahead and buy shielded cable and run it through the conduit. They will hook up both ends. The cable company wasn’t so cooperative. They will run their own cable through the conduit (I’ll leave a pull string in place for them).

Oh, going back to the buried electric line, the electrical inspector said I will “need an “S” loop for the transition to the raceway for earth movement and settlement.” Anyone help me out with that? I think he means to leave some slack line in an “S” shape right before it enters the PVC pipe as it goes up from the ground to the building. What do you think?

Miss C
@verizon.net

Miss C

Anon

Good grief! I have to do all of the same stuff and it seems pretty daunting....started digging yesterday. I was thinking of asking electrician before alerting utility companies as to my plans...
SemiDriven
join:2015-03-29
Milwaukee, WI

SemiDriven

Member

Let the adventure begin!

Sure — run your game plan past your electrician. If he isn’t startled or downright shocked (no pun intended), then your on the right track! He might even make a few suggestions for you to consider.

Not sure what part of the country you are from, but when you call Digger’s Hotline (or whatever it’s called where you are), the clock starts ticking. In other words, where I’m located, I have 10-business days to complete the work I’m doing underground. If I don’t meet the 10-day limit, I will need to call Digger’s Hotline again and have all the utilities come out and re-check the area and sign off on it before continuing the digging process. In any case, it’s very important that ALL the utilities give their “OK” before you start any digging.

Here’s one thing I wished I would have done: if you’re building an outbuilding (e.g. shed), and you want a light switch in the house to turn on a light (or whatever) in the shed, make sure you run an additional wire between the shed and the house (talk to your electrician about that).

Have fun!