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Black Box
join:2002-12-21

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Re: 70,000 Students Protest Austerity

said by urbanriot:

Yea, I'm curious what kind of marks those protesting had in high school... what kind of effort those people put forth who want others to pay for their schooling.

That's a different issue. The qualifications of the current students are irrelevant when thinking of a redesigned system. The current system is not thought to handle this. When I'm proposing a free University education system I'm also thinking that we have a good selection system, complete with expulsion of those that do not cut it.

Memories from Europe: To level off differences in grading amongst schools the graduation average only mattered in two situations: less than 60% or any of the finals with less than 50% and you don't get to graduate so no applications to University, or more people than spots with 100% at the University admission exam, then 100% mark candidates were selected based on the finals average. Score 99% or less fail the exam. To prevent fraud at finals, the questions were identical in the whole country, selected in the day of the exam from a pool of questions submitted sealed by multiple professors from multiple Universities. The teachers grading the finals were prohibited to grade finals from high schools where they taught.

BTW: We had another 2 admission exams we had to pass. One at the beginning of the high school, one at the middle of the high school. 2-3 applicants per spot, with up to 10 for the best of the best. Fail it, and instead to go to the best school in town, you end up going to where there were no applicants. Education up to high school level was mandatory. Guess the quality of those schools. Similar fraud prevention, only not that strict as for University. Did I mention it was totally free?

I know that having a bad day in the day of the exam would suck. Happened to me for one of the finals. No system is perfect, so alternate ideas are welcome. Just make education available for anyone qualified, even if they are totally broke. I in no way shape or form condone free fun in University for all wannabe stoners.

urbanriot
Premium Member
join:2004-10-18
Canada

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said by Black Box:

The real cost for a single ambulance call here (once you add all overheads) is about 1000 dollars.

... so it's subsidized? Like education is currently subsidized?
said by Black Box:

In many cases the ambulance charge is waived for serious injury or poor people.

Medically necessary, like life or death. Education is not a life or death situation.
said by Black Box:

Emergency medical help is also totally free to the user.

No, not really... it's at a cost to everyone else in society, including the user. Health care is not 'free'.
PX Eliezer1
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join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

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said by Black Box:

You conveniently forget that we are a constitutional monarchy too. Complete with a state church too since Henry VIII.

Henry VIII had nothing to do with Canada (unless he had six lives rather than six wives), and Canada does not have a state church.

Elizabeth's role as Queen of Canada, Queen of Australia, Queen of the United Kingdom, Queen of Jamaica, and of the other Commonwealth Realms (not to be confused with the remaining Commonwealth members) are separate and independent.

She wears 16 crowns in other words, not one.

And the British Parliament has no jurisdiction over Canada, not for a long time. The UK roles of the Church of England and the Church of Scotland have no relation to Canada.

The Queen acts as Queen of Canada, quite distinctly from her role in the United Kingdom or any of her other realms.

»www.royal.gov.uk/Monarch ··· ada.aspx

This was established by the Statute of Westminster of 1931, by many other agreements, traditions, and precedents, and confirmed by the patriation of the Canadian constitution in 1982.

-----

But you have given me a great idea for an SF story, Henry VIII as a time traveler. He ends up attending Yale University but is arrested for harassing women.

As a Mark Twain variant, I'll call it "A Connecticut Yaler as King Henry Goes to Court".

Hydraglass
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join:2002-05-08

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said by Black Box:

No you don't. The real cost for a single ambulance call here (once you add all overheads) is about 1000 dollars. Get the fast response SUV and the big van and the cost is even higher. Get the big pumper truck with 4 firefighters first and up they go again. Very few places in Canada where you pay the full cost. They charge a bit to discourage frivolous calls. In many cases the ambulance charge is waived for serious injury or poor people. Emergency medical help is also totally free to the user. Should we be paying for that too? "Don't slip into a coma before signing these forms?" I never head of someone being billed for an accidental fire, only in some cases for arson.

The insurance thing is distinct issue (not paid by tax dollars).

Sorry to burst your bubble too.

In almost all cases you pay - no not the full cost - it's subsidized - but you pay a portion. That's exactly how all colleges and universities in Canada are right now - some portion is subsidized by the gov't and some is covered by the person who uses it. Tuition for most college programs right now is only $3k - $4k/year. The real cost is more like $10k/year - the rest of that is already subsidized.
An ambulance call is $250 - $400 my cost, $1000-$1200 their cost -- I pay about 40% - same deal. A fire call cost can run anywhere between $500-$5000 depending on what you did. My neighbour accidentally started a grass fire 2 years ago - that cost him $3300. I'm sure the full cost was like $10,000 - $12,000 - but again it's subsidized the same as higher education.

I never said they should take away subsidizing that already exists - just that giving it all away free to everyone is probably the stupidest idea I've ever heard. Making it merit based on the other hand - doesn't diminish the value of the degree - you have to work for it with your marks. If we gave it away free to everyone it would become as useful as a high school diploma - no value add whatsoever when competing for jobs - at least right now it differentiates those who work for it one way or another - either by marks, scholarships, bursaries, or $ - vs. those who just show up and can't cut it.

urbanriot
Premium Member
join:2004-10-18
Canada

urbanriot

Premium Member

said by Hydraglass:

The real cost is more like $10k/year - the rest of that is already subsidized.

Let's not forget government grants and contributions to facility upgrades.

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

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said by Black Box:

So we shouldn't have free Fire Department response either because it's paid by the taxpayers.

yea, speaking of that (interesting timing)...our city has been working hard to help curb excessive runaway costs in fire/police services in the last couple of years when this little nugget hit the papers:

»www.lfpress.com/2015/04/ ··· fighters

Black Box
join:2002-12-21

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said by urbanriot:

said by Black Box:

The real cost for a single ambulance call here (once you add all overheads) is about 1000 dollars.

... so it's subsidized? Like education is currently subsidized?

As it should. Do you advocate to removes subsidies to save on taxes? Let everyone to fend for themselves?
said by urbanriot:

said by Black Box:

In many cases the ambulance charge is waived for serious injury or poor people.

Medically necessary, like life or death. Education is not a life or death situation.

So if it's not life and death let them pay for it? You can live with a broken foot, as you can live without an education. Your life would suck, you won't be able to contribute much to society, but on the brighter side you won't pay to much tax because you won't have too much money. And don't give me celebrity entrepreneurs, they are the exception. It's like saying "Bleep it, I don't need an education, I'll win the lottery!".
said by urbanriot:

said by Black Box:

Emergency medical help is also totally free to the user.

No, not really... it's at a cost to everyone else in society, including the user. Health care is not 'free'.

That is the crux of the discussion. Put the burden on the individual that benefits directly, or distribute the cost to the entire society that benefits indirectly. I say that in these situations the cost should be shared.
Black Box

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said by PX Eliezer1:

Henry VIII had nothing to do with Canada (unless he had six lives rather than six wives), and Canada does not have a state church.

The Canadian Crown, while distinct, is split only recently from the United Kingdom Crown. As such it has a shared history. So the line that leads to the Canadian Crown contains Henry VIII too.

The Anglican Church anywhere is lead by the sitting Queen or King.

But we digress.
Black Box

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said by Hydraglass:

I never said they should take away subsidizing that already exists - just that giving it all away free to everyone is probably the stupidest idea I've ever heard. Making it merit based on the other hand - doesn't diminish the value of the degree - you have to work for it with your marks. If we gave it away free to everyone it would become as useful as a high school diploma - no value add whatsoever when competing for jobs - at least right now it differentiates those who work for it one way or another - either by marks, scholarships, bursaries, or $ - vs. those who just show up and can't cut it.

So we are somewhat in agreement. I agree that degrees should not be handed out like candy, the way they do with primary education credits. In fact I totally agree that is should be hard to get a degree. It wasn't easy for me either. You don't work like you mean it, or you are not fit for it, you are out. A degree must mean that you actually know what the paper says you know. No one should be subsidizing the key to a better life for a lazy ass or incompetent. The way where I see it differently is in putting a money test on it.

If I would had to pay for it I would have needed to get a job while in University and I would have had to cut back on the time spent either working on assignments and projects or sleeping. You learn so well while tired, not! I was spending about 30-35 hours in class/lab with professors/lecturers and easily another 50 outside of that on assignments and projects each week. My desperately poor buddy would have been shut out completely and that would have been a shame.

Good or bad, the system I was part of has good results. People that graduated the same way who came here are usually the go to persons in their areas of expertise. People that studied there and here say that here is a breeze. I saw something good before I came here, I want to see it here too. Again, I want our great country to be even better.
PX Eliezer1
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Zubrowka USA

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said by Black Box:

The Anglican Church anywhere is lead by the sitting Queen or King.

16 sitting Queens at present, not one.

Important constitutional distinction.

urbanriot
Premium Member
join:2004-10-18
Canada

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said by Black Box:

said by urbanriot:

said by Black Box:

The real cost for a single ambulance call here (once you add all overheads) is about 1000 dollars.

... so it's subsidized? Like education is currently subsidized?

As it should. Do you advocate to removes subsidies to save on taxes? Let everyone to fend for themselves?

Considering how many university departments regularly blow money to sustain / increase their budget and considering how there are Ontario universities that are carrying an unsustainable pension fund, yes, I do suggest reviewing such subsidies.
said by Black Box:

said by urbanriot:

said by Black Box:

In many cases the ambulance charge is waived for serious injury or poor people.

Medically necessary, like life or death. Education is not a life or death situation.

So if it's not life and death let them pay for it? You can live with a broken foot, as you can live without an education. Your life would suck, you won't be able to contribute much to society, but on the brighter side you won't pay to much tax because you won't have too much money. And don't give me celebrity entrepreneurs, they are the exception. It's like saying "Bleep it, I don't need an education, I'll win the lottery!".

That's more BS. I can understand how you might not have the motivation to succeed in life without a degree but there's huge amounts of people in our society that have worked their way up the corporate ladder without a degree and there are plenty of folks in here that are productive members of society without university degrees.

In fact there are plenty of young people in our society right now that have opted to go in different routes realizing that university degrees do not hold the weight the baby boomers said they would have. I know plenty of tradespeople and IT people without degrees that are making more money than university graduates.

Or rather than suggesting a person needs to win the lottery, why not have them actually earn the degree through scholarships and bursaries? Or perhaps, you know, work to pay for their degree like plenty of young people do? Or use OSAP and work part time?

I realize that perhaps "life is hard boo hoo" but perhaps it's time for the young people in our society to get their act together and stop demanding that society hand them an easy life on a silver platter and work to a happy life like their grandparents did no so long ago.
said by Black Box:

That is the crux of the discussion. Put the burden on the individual that benefits directly, or distribute the cost to the entire society that benefits indirectly. I say that in these situations the cost should be shared.

And based what I see in North America, within universities, the business world, and young adult social circles, I see that as a huge waste of money. I simply don't want to throw my money at universities that will blow it on jobs or infrastructure that they don't need, young people who don't need a degree for success, or at young people that plan to spend their nights guzzling booze to wash out of university.

Quite frankly I'd like to see society encouraging young people to buck up and try working towards success. I'd like to see society encouraging young people to consider the trades rather than wasting time heading towards a university path that might not be right for them. A smart guy with a welding certification can go far, perhaps further than the stereotypical political sciences degree holder.

Black Box
join:2002-12-21

Black Box

Member

said by urbanriot:

Considering how many university departments regularly blow money to sustain / increase their budget and considering how there are Ontario universities that are carrying an unsustainable pension fund, yes, I do suggest reviewing such subsidies.

That's what you get with Universities run as businesses. I've seen it before with the arrival of private universities in my birth country. Getting more money from students, lobbying for more subsidies, anything to increase the bottom line. Education quality and specialty fitness to the actual economic needs did not matter. They were a running joke. But we had the free real Universities, that had only one objective: learning what actually mattered.

Make University subsidies linked to the 5 years success of the graduates, whether steadily employed or having a business reasonably related to the degree obtained, and all these cohorts of virtually unemployable arts graduates will disappear quite quickly.

And you go again: I don't have it, why you should have it? Why don't you ask for everybody to have it, you included?

The pensions are part of the global compensation package. Once the contract was signed, they are the duty of the employer to provide them, just like the wages. It's just like you would say: we've signed for this, but I'll pay you only 3/4 of that. You make too much anyway. You better provide your obligations in full. The problem is that the C level suits are cutting corners, and willfully underfund pensions. Then cry poor and look for ways to weasel out of their obligations. But that doesn't matter, only a bunch of retirees are getting short changed.
said by urbanriot:

That's more BS. I can understand how you might not have the motivation to succeed in life without a degree but there's huge amounts of people in our society that have worked their way up the corporate ladder without a degree and there are plenty of folks in here that are productive members of society without university degrees.

I beg to differ. There are people that did, no denying that though. I cannot see someone at the top of an important corporation unless you are Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. But both had seed capital from well chosen parents. And both went to well chosen Universities and learned the essentials. True that they did not stick around for the details. Should their businesses had failed like 2/3 of the start-ups, they would have gone back. Barring that, you typically top out with foreman in a construction crew or something like that. Not a bad life, but certainly you could do much better with an education, like it or not.

One of the most important values of our liberal democracy is a fair chance for everyone. That's why our government made away with hereditary peerage in this country. Remember the first Conrad black scandal? The one when he renounced the Canadian citizenship for an UK peerage? By putting a money test on the chance break out of the lower class you are advocating for a class or caste system.

OSAP and loans are putting you deep in a hole where you are alone struggling. You have bad luck finding a job and go bankrupt, OSAP does not go away. Being poor and needing to work essentially full time to support yourself won't leave you enough time and energy to actually learn, so it makes it difficult to say the least to learn at levels where you maintain your bursaries. Maybe you also need to sustain a few brothers, or a sick parent. In University students should have one objective only: studying. Not surviving, not angling the system for bursaries.

This is not the solution you are looking for. Poor students are a lot more likely to drop out, even when they have better drive. That is a big loss for our society. The only ones that profit from that are the banks that will suck out the interest in the loans for a long time.
said by urbanriot:

In fact there are plenty of young people in our society right now that have opted to go in different routes realizing that university degrees do not hold the weight the baby boomers said they would have. I know plenty of tradespeople and IT people without degrees that are making more money than university graduates.

I work IT here and when I compare my wage with a wage for an aerospace engineer working aerospace jobs I see that I leave a LOT of money on the table. I should be making double what I make now. Life happened and I cannot afford to take the time to get my education formally recognized in Canada. Try again.
said by urbanriot:

I realize that perhaps "life is hard boo hoo" but perhaps it's time for the young people in our society to get their act together and stop demanding that society hand them an easy life on a silver platter and work to a happy life like their grandparents did no so long ago.

So stay in your assigned station in life?

You totally fail to see the benefits for the society at large of having the best minds trained in universities, instead of the ones that can afford. You cannot look past some dude that was brighter than others getting help from the state (that is you and I). remember: United we stand, divided we fall. Get real education going, in sync with the real needs of the economy, not for profit education that churns out as many graduates it can so far as it can turn a profit out of them.
said by urbanriot:

Quite frankly I'd like to see society encouraging young people to buck up and try working towards success. I'd like to see society encouraging young people to consider the trades rather than wasting time heading towards a university path that might not be right for them. A smart guy with a welding certification can go far, perhaps further than the stereotypical political sciences degree holder.

You are thinking of the German education model. Where in the first 2 years of higher education are free to switch between theoretic (engineering included) and applied (think red seal). That is one of the thinks I'm advocating with connecting real employers with the seats available. Real training for real jobs. Welding red seal included. That would weed out bogus political sciences streams. Just as you wish.

urbanriot
Premium Member
join:2004-10-18
Canada

urbanriot

Premium Member

said by Black Box:

Make University subsidies linked to the 5 years success of the graduates, whether steadily employed or having a business reasonably related to the degree obtained, and all these cohorts of virtually unemployable arts graduates will disappear quite quickly.

That's not a realistic scenario. It's one thing to suggest a debateable idea that could be in the realm of plausibility but wholly restructuring the educational infrastructure of Canada will never be on the table.
said by Black Box:

said by urbanriot:

That's more BS. I can understand how you might not have the motivation to succeed in life without a degree but there's huge amounts of people in our society that have worked their way up the corporate ladder without a degree and there are plenty of folks in here that are productive members of society without university degrees.

I beg to differ. There are people that did, no denying that though.

You can beg all you want, it's the truth. I regularly interact with professionals that do not have university degrees, either moving up the ranks in a hands-on position or hired based on their experience.

This is the second time you've tried to tie in celebrities with the reality of people gainfully employed without university degrees. This is normal, they're everywhere in our society, Steve Jobs or Bill Gates are not employed at the corporations near you... regular people are employed there.

I have a feeling that this is a fantasy concept to you because you're not interacting with as many 30+ year old people as some of us are.
said by Black Box:

In University students should have one objective only: studying. Not surviving, not angling the system for bursaries.

Except you're not presenting what their current objective is; It's typically a potpourri of studying, partying, scoring, sports, and boozing it up. A healthy mix that typically leads to success but that's not their one objective.

I wasn't suggesting they should "angle" the system for bursaries and instead encouraged them to fulfill the educational responsibilities that come with monetary benefits. Of the students I know that received full scholarships, it was due to their educational performance, volunteering, and work experience.
said by Black Box:

Poor students are a lot more likely to drop out, even when they have better drive. That is a big loss for our society.

If they had a better drive, they'd have earned the money. If for whatever reason they can't, if they're smart enough and hard working enough, those are the people that eventually become good managers.
said by urbanriot:

I work IT here and when I compare my wage with a wage for an aerospace engineer working aerospace jobs I see that I leave a LOT of money on the table. I should be making double what I make now. Life happened and I cannot afford to take the time to get my education formally recognized in Canada. Try again.

So you're telling me you'd be an aerospace engineer if university in Canada were free? If that's the case, wouldn't society benefit from a brilliant IT person who has the skills to be an aerospace engineer? I'm surprised you don't have a long list of certificates that allow you to have a more specialized IT career that pays the big bucks.
said by urbanriot:

You totally fail to see the benefits for the society at large of having the best minds trained in universities, instead of the ones that can afford.

On the contrary, I feel that if the 'best minds' wanted to go to university, they'd be there if they were motivated enough.
said by Black Box:

remember: United we stand, divided we fall.

Individually I stand just fine and possible excel.

Get real education going, in sync with the real needs of the economy, not for profit education that churns out as many graduates it can so far as it can turn a profit out of them.
said by Black Box:

said by urbanriot:

Quite frankly I'd like to see society encouraging young people to buck up and try working towards success. I'd like to see society encouraging young people to consider the trades rather than wasting time heading towards a university path that might not be right for them. A smart guy with a welding certification can go far, perhaps further than the stereotypical political sciences degree holder.

You are thinking of the German education model.

No, I'm thinking of every day life in Canada. I know plenty of trades people that are paid considerably large amounts of money for their work, not just in specialized areas like deep sea welding, but in working for successful companies that require these kinds of people.
urbanriot

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said by Black Box:

So stay in your assigned station in life?

Exactly the opposite since we're not assigned stations in life. Outside of freak accidents and life ending ailments, if a person chooses to be successful, they'll be successful.

I think this is the crux of the issue right here, the idea of people taking responsibility for their lives seems like a foreign concept to you and I'm wondering if this is a generational problem that's getting worse. You're regularly inferring that people do not have a choice to get to where they want to and it almost seems... well, like a person is intentionally disabling themselves from success.

So you can't go to university? Big deal, get a job wherever you can find one and work your way up. Why is that something that I'd consider while it's not something 'the best brains' can consider? They don't want to work for a living?

Black Box
join:2002-12-21

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said by urbanriot:

That's not a realistic scenario. It's one thing to suggest a debateable idea that could be in the realm of plausibility but wholly restructuring the educational infrastructure of Canada will never be on the table.

Well, with the right wing spin that grips Canadian politics now you are unfortunately right. Unless people really start asking for it.
said by urbanriot:

You can beg all you want, it's the truth. I regularly interact with professionals that do not have university degrees, either moving up the ranks in a hands-on position or hired based on their experience.

You can rise up to a level without an education too, but you won't be working in the domains of the future like artificial intelligence, cancer sniffing sensors, a real life tricorder. We can lead or we can follow. I'd rather have these invented here than anywhere else in the world. Without giving access to education to the best potential students and by reserving it for the ones with money pushed from behind by a helicopter mother and you get the student quality you get now.
said by urbanriot:

Steve Jobs or Bill Gates are not employed at the corporations near you... regular people are employed there.

The issue is the masses are taught to look at them and expect to be able to do the same. And they believe it. Those are the exceptions, one in a million. You don't make policy decisions based on the exceptions. And they actually had an University education, they just chose not to complete it. So the argument is not entirely valid when looking at them.
said by urbanriot:

Except you're not presenting what their current objective is; It's typically a potpourri of studying, partying, scoring, sports, and boozing it up. A healthy mix that typically leads to success but that's not their one objective.

That's because the degrees are not difficult enough to weed out those that are not cut for it. More than half of the people admitted with me failed and were forced to drop out before graduation. They say that idle hands are the Devil's workshop. I have been to parties, even crazy ones, but few and far between, I had no time for that sh#t. I lived in the student residence, on my own, no parents hovering on me to stop me from going to parties or getting wasted.
said by urbanriot:

said by Black Box:

Poor students are a lot more likely to drop out, even when they have better drive. That is a big loss for our society.

If they had a better drive, they'd have earned the money. If for whatever reason they can't, if they're smart enough and hard working enough, those are the people that eventually become good managers.

I would rather have a better engineer than a manager. You don't need much education for the middle management. The most important thing good managers get from Universities is a good respect for the work of engineers and others, and know to get the h*ll out of the way.

I don't want a brilliant mind be wasted in management when it could be in the lab discovering the next antibiotic.
said by urbanriot:

So you're telling me you'd be an aerospace engineer if university in Canada were free?

I'm telling you I am an aerospace engineer, and a good one for that. I was known at the Transportation Safety Board of Canada since before I came to Canada. I had analyzed more black boxes than anyone in Canada, TSB experts included. They really wanted to hire me and support me to get my engineering certifications in order. Public Services Commission chose to be obtuse and that chance flew away. Life happened next and aerospace engineering is no longer a real possibility for me. I won't go into the details.

I have no certifications because they keep me busy and say why you need training when you already know everything in the domain? There are no certifications in my specialty anyway.
said by urbanriot:

On the contrary, I feel that if the 'best minds' wanted to go to university, they'd be there if they were motivated enough.

Well, as it is now, you also need money, not only motivation.
said by urbanriot:

Individually I stand just fine and possible excel.

False. You probably are a somewhat better than your peers. United you and your peers all will be better, possibly with less differences.
said by urbanriot:

said by Black Box:

You are thinking of the German education model.

No, I'm thinking of every day life in Canada. I know plenty of trades people that are paid considerably large amounts of money for their work, not just in specialized areas like deep sea welding, but in working for successful companies that require these kinds of people.

In Canada this happens haphazardly. While people get into these specialties, kudos to them, most drift into them, instead of a real partnership between industries and Universities. And no path to shift if you realize that the theoretical stream is not for you.
said by urbanriot :

said by Black box :

So stay in your assigned station in life?

Exactly the opposite since we're not assigned stations in life. Outside of freak accidents and life ending ailments, if a person chooses to be successful, they'll be successful.

And I chose to be a billionaire. /sarcasm The upward mobility is at an all time low. In the US is even worse. Especially true for those caught in the "poverty trap". And poverty is a huge factor in disengagement and criminality. I won't call your affirmation BS, because are enough exceptions, but it is not too far.

From what gather you always had it good. Take a look at what happens below your class, because otherwise trouble will raise from there. There is a saying "the well fed don't believe the starving".

urbanriot
Premium Member
join:2004-10-18
Canada

1 edit

urbanriot

Premium Member

said by Black Box:

said by urbanriot:

You can beg all you want, it's the truth. I regularly interact with professionals that do not have university degrees, either moving up the ranks in a hands-on position or hired based on their experience.

You can rise up to a level without an education too, but you won't be working in the domains of the future like artificial intelligence, cancer sniffing sensors, a real life tricorder. We can lead or we can follow. I'd rather have these invented here than anywhere else in the world.

You're regularly making a leap to fantastical situations rather than referring to the here and now. You're inferring with your scenario that a person can't work at a technology company without a university degree and since people can work at technology companies today without them, I don't see that as a true scenario.

Let's look at one of the biggest technology companies, Google - something like 15% of the people employed in their development teams haven't been to college. Google that, you'll see it's true with quotes from Google representatives.

You've exaggerated the reality of our workforce, I've countered them with personal experiences which you could allege are anecdotal, but there's a provable fact for you.

There's also statistics that report nearly half of the graduated workforce in first world countries are working in non-graduate jobs and that's a whole other issue right there.
said by Black Box:

Those are the exceptions, one in a million.

... what!? One in a million people without degrees working in a professional capacity!? I'm not sure if you're being dishonest or you have no idea who's in our professional work force. There's even well paid people working at universities without degrees, a choice some people make to save on the actual process of earning a degree. Work first, degree later, a common endeavour.
said by Black Box:

I don't want a brilliant mind be wasted in management when it could be in the lab discovering the next antibiotic.

See, it's this stretch of the truth that gets me right here, the inference that someone who can't get their way into university for whatever reason will automatically discover the next antibiotic if they have a university degree.
said by Black Box:

said by urbanriot:

On the contrary, I feel that if the 'best minds' wanted to go to university, they'd be there if they were motivated enough.

Well, as it is now, you also need money, not only motivation.

No, my quote included the consideration for money. If you're motivated enough, you'll earn the money either through work or educational efforts. With motivation comes money.
said by Black Box:

said by urbanriot :

said by Black box :

So stay in your assigned station in life?

Exactly the opposite since we're not assigned stations in life. Outside of freak accidents and life ending ailments, if a person chooses to be successful, they'll be successful.

And I chose to be a billionaire. /sarcasm

This may be an example of this new issue with millennials I'm regularly reading about, demanding that society hand them an easy life of success without engaging in any effort - suggesting that goals are unattainable sarcastic fantasies rather than, well, goals.

Certainly time may mold those goals into more realistic present day goals due to life events, like unexpected births or deaths, love, etc., but to suggest a person can't be successful on his own volition is harmful to our youth and, well, it's rather depressing.

I live in a home I'm very much fond of with what feels like the best job for me and I'm here entirely as a result of my efforts to get here. I'm not a billionaire nor am I a millionaire but I didn't mitigate that idea either. Despite the fact that I'm older and wiser now, I still feel like such possibilities are still worthy goals... however I choose not to strive for that as I'd have to do so at the exception of the other good things I have in my life.

Hukg
@comcast.net

Hukg to 19579823

Anon

to 19579823
said by 19579823:

»rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers ··· ial-stri

Thoughts? -- I think this is excellent so many are standing up!!!!

SHOULD BE HAPPENING ALL OVER THE WORLD!!!!!!!

Whining because the free handouts are slowing down. Get a job and pay for part of your tuition yourself. I worked a full time job all thru college to supplement parents and academic scholarship.
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1

Premium Member

said by Hukg :

Whining because the free handouts are slowing down. Get a job and pay for part of your tuition yourself. I worked a full time job all thru college to supplement parents and academic scholarship.

Similarly:

My wife's parents did not help her at all for college, and her dad even refused to provide the family financial data that was needed to apply for financial aid.

She lived in her parent's basement, commuted to a state college in an old VW that was falling apart, and paid her own way by working at Dunkin Donuts and similar jobs.

Took her 7 years to get two bachelors degrees that way.

Hukg
@comcast.net

Hukg

Anon

said by PX Eliezer1:

said by Hukg :

Whining because the free handouts are slowing down. Get a job and pay for part of your tuition yourself. I worked a full time job all thru college to supplement parents and academic scholarship.

Similarly:

My wife's parents did not help her at all for college, and her dad even refused to provide the family financial data that was needed to apply for financial aid.

She lived in her parent's basement, commuted to a state college in an old VW that was falling apart, and paid her own way by working at Dunkin Donuts and similar jobs.

Took her 7 years to get two bachelors degrees that way.

Very commendable and I bet she is making good use of her education after working hard to earn it. When you have to work for something you get more value from it then when it is handed to you.

Black Box
join:2002-12-21

Black Box to urbanriot

Member

to urbanriot
said by urbanriot:

Let's look at one of the biggest technology companies, Google - something like 15% of the people employed in their development teams haven't been to college. Google that, you'll see it's true with quotes from Google representatives.

Don't forget that Google is a primarily a web and data warehousing company. For a lot of the jobs developing web applications, interface and graphic design, slinging data around and testing you can get by without a degree. All you need is PHP, Ajax, SQL or Photoshop. There is a place for coders and testers everywhere, so I'm not surprised. I just can't see these guys working with complex algorithms in a driverless car though.
said by urbanriot:

There's also statistics that report nearly half of the graduated workforce in first world countries are working in non-graduate jobs and that's a whole other issue right there.

That's right up my alley. The disconnect due to seats because people pay for them as opposed that the seats because economy needs them is mostly because of the current University funding. If they can live of the students' loans (they don't care, the students are stuck with them) and government handouts based on raw number of students, they'll happily make 90% of seats to be art history and political sciences. Change the system and cut subsidies if students are not 80% employed or owning a business in a field related to the degree, see how quickly the majors will match the economy's needs.

One thing is that individual students don't have access to detailed market data and cannot pay analysts to know that are the trends, what are the real employments outlooks and so on. All they see are macroeconomic data, anecdotal accounts from friends and, maybe even more important, hype driven by the Universities themselves to steer candidates to the specialties most profitable for the Universities.
said by urbanriot:

See, it's this stretch of the truth that gets me right here, the inference that someone who can't get their way into university for whatever reason will automatically discover the next antibiotic if they have a university degree.

No University no new antibiotic, I hope you agree on that.

Now the real issue here: poverty. Spin it all you want, if you live at Jane and Finch or on the Downtown West Side without a father and 4 little brothers, you'll have a hard time scrapping 7000 per year for tuition for the next 4 years. Add textbooks and the others and you need 10.000. That's on top of the cost of living. Very few people in that situation have the stomach for this. the bight one will go in sales or trades, because these pay immediately. Nothing wrong with working in those areas, it is just a waste of a good mind. Overall society looses.
said by urbanriot:

what!? One in a million people without degrees working in a professional capacity!?

One in a million like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. In professional capacities, of course there are a lot more. It is not so hard to go through a paid apprenticeship to lean a trade, or to pick up a book and learn about a Cisco router. Or you can go in the oil patch (just wait a while for things to pick up again). You can make a pretty decent living. I said it a few times already. Just won't be able to push the country forward in the information era.
said by urbanriot:

See, it's this stretch of the truth that gets me right here, the inference that someone who can't get their way into university for whatever reason will automatically discover the next antibiotic if they have a university degree.

I won't bother to respond to this.
said by urbanriot:

No, my quote included the consideration for money. If you're motivated enough, you'll earn the money either through work or educational efforts. With motivation comes money.

Not if you are caught in the poverty trap. Therefore my previous comments on classes and castes.
said by urbanriot:

... suggesting that goals are unattainable sarcastic fantasies rather than, well, goals.

Goals like University education without society support are just that: fantasies. For a lucky few from the disadvantaged they may become reality. It is the whole society's interest and duty to make sure that the most fit can attain them, not the well (ore reasonably) off and the lucky few paupers. There are indeed some, just like the proverbial black friend, but they are the exception. I'll give by broke friend as an example again. He was likely bound to literally shovel dirt in a village. maybe with some luck he could have become and electrician's apprentice or something. But because he had access to totally free education and state support, he became the best of the best in my class. He scored more than 4/5 of candidates at the admission, he lasted where more than 1/2 of us dropped out and he outscored every single one of us to become the top of the class. This would have NOT been possible without the state support.

I feel that his topic has veered into ideological debate, beyond the original scope of should the state subsidize the University studies or not? Therefore I'm signing off this topic and heymod it as "has run its course"

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

1 edit

dirtyjeffer0 to 19579823

Premium Member

to 19579823
for some reason, the last page of this thread won't load...a couple of threads seem to be doing this.

EDIT: seems the only way to load the last page is to post blindly in the thread, then go to the main menu for the board and go to the last post in the thread...weird.
dirtyjeffer0

dirtyjeffer0 to Black Box

Premium Member

to Black Box
said by Black Box:

I'm telling you I am an aerospace engineer, and a good one for that.

out of curiosity, do you have your P.Eng.?

Ymouse
@teksavvy.com

1 recommendation

Ymouse to Guspaz

Anon

to Guspaz
Wrong. So. Very. Wrong. Have you actually followed the last campaign?!

NONE, I repeat, NONE of what the government is doing right now has been part of their last campaign. Please, do tell me when and how during the campaign the LPQ has announced that they would pass a bill like bill 10 and bill 20. Or that they would increase their own salary. Or that they would completely cut funding to CLDs (which was an absolutely retarded move).

They are doing things the people have NOT voted for.
jaberi
join:2010-08-13

jaberi

Member

said by Ymouse :

Wrong. So. Very. Wrong. Have you actually followed the last campaign?!

NONE, I repeat, NONE of what the government is doing right now has been part of their last campaign. Please, do tell me when and how during the campaign the LPQ has announced that they would pass a bill like bill 10 and bill 20. Or that they would increase their own salary. Or that they would completely cut funding to CLDs (which was an absolutely retarded move).

They are doing things the people have NOT voted for.

that is what i said in another thread, what difference does it make what Mulclair/Justin say they will do/or not do......they all promise the moon, and do exactly the opposite, look after their friends and families, and become thieves with the taxpayers....better to elect a new government this election than continue a 3rd term with the thieves in power now...

voters do not hold the government accountable, everyone is complacent and repeat what can we do, what can we do....why not unite and stand together...as opposed to preaching that we need to live on minimum wage.

Ymouse
@teksavvy.com

1 recommendation

Ymouse to Guspaz

Anon

to Guspaz
"I have a low opinion of people who protest austerity. They would rather that the government keep racking up massive deficits and debts than to actually fix the problem."

You like to be screwed don't you? You must like it real good. Because while you willingly take cuts in your services and are being forced to pay more for things like Hydro and other taxes, there are fat cats at the top who are filling their pockets with your money. Seriously, HOW THE HELL can you support austerity when the main reason why we "don't have the means" is because we are getting ROBBED by those in power?! This is EXACTLY what the students are protesting. They want those who rob us to start paying and to stop robbing us. Seriously how the hell can you be against that?!

Here are a few not so novel ideas that they're proposing :
- Fight tax evasion : $740M
- Increase the number of income tax brackets (there are 4 now, there were 16 in 1988) : $1B
- Abolish the 50% tax break on capital gains : $739M
- Adjust the consumption tax to lower it for essential goods and services while increasing for luxury goods and services : $745M
- Restore the tax on capital gains for financial institutions which was abolished in 2007 : $600M
- Use open source software : $266M
- Increase the royalties for our natural resources which we are pretty much giving away right now : $410M
- Reduce the ceiling of RRSP contributions to $12,000 : $300M

But of course, that won't happen. Because that would involve the friend of those in power actually paying for something or stopping robbing us.

If you want to drink the kool-aid, feel free to send all your paychecks to Power Corp, BMO, RBC, or whatever Chinese mining company is robbing us right now. However, don't blame those who want nothing of that crap.

EUS
Kill cancer
Premium Member
join:2002-09-10
canada

1 recommendation

EUS

Premium Member

Your examples relate to misallocation of resources (crminal or not), and not living within means (austerity).
jaberi
join:2010-08-13

jaberi

Member

Why are University graduates underemployed

There was a time when a University degree assured you a of good job, good pay and a comfortable life. Not any more. Today, the unemployment rate for young people in this country is close to 15% %u2013 double that of the general population.

»www.cbc.ca/doczone/episo ··· -jobless
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------

as the song says, "what do you do with a BA in English?"
the answer is:

a. get a teaching degree and teach.
b. work at Staples.
c. join the military.

EUS
Kill cancer
Premium Member
join:2002-09-10
canada

EUS

Premium Member

Actually there was never a guarantee that a good job would follow a degree.
From my father's generation and before, most everyone chasing a degree had a trade under their belt to fall back on.
One of today's problems in post-secondary education is the amount of useless degrees being handed out.
No sympathies here.
Gallion
join:2011-03-16
canada

3 edits

1 recommendation

Gallion to EUS

Member

to EUS
said by EUS:

Your examples relate to misallocation of resources (crminal or not), and not living within means (austerity).

Yes, that is the whole point. We currently are living within our means, unlike what so many people who blindly believe whatever politicians tell them say. We have ample means, except we are being robbed. The whole austerity bullshit is only that, bullshit. It is not needed in any way. What is needed is for the rich, the politicians and their friends to stop robbing us. Right now, what pro-austerity people really are doing is supporting giving them more money through cuts and tax increases.
Gallion

Gallion to Guspaz

Member

to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:

I have a low opinion of people who protest austerity.

I have a very low opinion of people who support letting the crooks rob us while asking the population to take cuts and tax increases to compensate.