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coryw
join:2013-12-22
Flagstaff, AZ

coryw

Member

[Qwest] 40/20 Initial Impressions

My place closed and I'm in it now, empty, with just my Mac mini and a new C1000a.

At first I couldn't get connected. I'm on the test jack at the demarc now, I'll have to see what I can do with the wiring, because I think something's wrong there.

Nevertheless: The modem syncs at exactly 40/20 and at the jack, the signal is pretty good. SNRs are 15 down and 18 up. xdslctl info says that I'm trained up using the 12A profile. Its guess for max speed is 65/40, which would confirm the recent theory that 60/30 on a single pair should be fine if you're close.

»[DSL Speed test: 31.14/18.43 44 ms] is an initial speedtest for this service, but it's also like 6:30 p.m. and I'm on wifi, in an MDU/townhome/apartment complex, so the 2.4GHz spectrum is totally messed up. I wouldn't at all be surprised if that gets a little better when I find an Ethernet cable and wire everything in.

I'll come up with some different thoughts, etc at some point over the next few days.

One thought: should I update my existing review or add a new one for this service, at a new location? Is there a site convention for that? I'm tempted to put it in as a new review, because I ordered new service (CoreConnect.)

chamb267
@embarqhsd.net

chamb267

Anon

A speed test over Wi-Fi is not going to give you a valid result even on non-congested Wi-Fi. If the Wi-Fi is congested, it will be even worse.
Always use an ethernet cable of you want correct results.
dslguy11
join:2015-03-17
Minneapolis, MN

dslguy11 to coryw

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to coryw
Interesting it's 12A... I thought they only did 8A.

retiredqwest
join:2005-04-01
Spokane, WA

retiredqwest

Member

said by dslguy11:

Interesting it's 12A... I thought they only did 8A.

Adtran Total Access 1148V Host and Client
48 ports of G.993.2-compliant VDSL2 ports
Support for "5 Band" VDSL2: Profiles 8a-d, 12a-b, 17a
Backwards compatible with ADSLx Modems

Of course this only applies to legacy Qwest areas, can't speak for the others.

crazyk4952
Premium Member
join:2002-02-04
united state
Ubiquiti EdgeRouter Lite
Ubiquiti UniFi AP-LR
Polycom VVX300

crazyk4952 to dslguy11

Premium Member

to dslguy11
said by dslguy11:

Interesting it's 12A... I thought they only did 8A.

I've had 40/20 for about a year and a half and my DSL modem shows VDSL2 - 12A.

Edit: I am in a former Qwest area.
coryw
join:2013-12-22
Flagstaff, AZ

coryw to chamb267

Member

to chamb267
I'd meant to set it up the day before, but discovered an internal wiring problem that I couldn't resolve. As such, the modem moved around a few places, which is why when it finally trained up, the computer was connected to it via wireless.

I since moved everything over to Ethernet, but have yet to re-do speed tests.

It's worth noting too that I don't actually live there yet, so I haven't had an opportunity to say, do a speed-test at 3 a.m. or anything of that nature.

Regardless, even if none of the speedtests ever goes over about 35 megs, I'm pleased with the service.
coryw

coryw to retiredqwest

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to retiredqwest
Which generations of the TA1148V will do 17A? I had been given the impression that that was kind of a recent thing, but it may just be a firmware update, etc.

AT&T is really only just now starting to use 17A, but if/when CL deploys that, there's probably not going to be much of a reason that they couldn't do 80/40 on a single port.
coryw

coryw

Member

Continuing my thoughts in the reply to retiredqwest See Profile because this is just some impressions about CL policy, etc.

With some kind of promo, I have 40/20 CoreConnect for a base price of $125/mo. That'll ultimately include the $2-or-so Internet Cost Recovery Fee, plus local and federal taxes for having a phone line. I chose CoreConnect because there was an additional $20-or-so drop in the price. I figure, after I add static IPs and the taxes, I'll only be a few dollars over what Office Internet would have been.

My line can sync at 60/30 with Profile 12A. It could probably sync at 80/40 on 17A. The question is whether or not they're willing to loose the sweet, sweet $435 or so they're already charging for "Office Internet" 80/40. (it's $519 on CoreConnect.)

Considering my particular deal if I wanted 80/40, it would cost a bit over four times as much I'm paying now, even though I'd only need to bond two ports to do it, using their tiering today, with 8 or 12MHz profiles.

It would be cheaper for me to buy four 40/20 services, let them over-provision to 50/20, and then use a VPN service to bond them all, and ultimately, have 200/80 of total potential performance, and at the same time, have four total phone lines, for whatever you might want to do with four lines.

But that's another issue entirely, and I'm not 100% sure that there are actually four pairs going to my house anyway.

toby
Troy Mcclure
join:2001-11-13
Seattle, WA

toby

Member

said by coryw:

I have 40/20 CoreConnect for a base price of $125/mo.

Add a bit more for feeeees.
My $85 core connect is $109.
dslguy11
join:2015-03-17
Minneapolis, MN

dslguy11 to retiredqwest

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said by retiredqwest:

Of course this only applies to legacy Qwest areas, can't speak for the others.

I'm in Minneapolis, do you know if it's *possible* to get fast path? I keep reading that the DSLAM is supposed to automatically re-adjust as line conditions change (I re-wired a direct path to the NID). But that was a month ago, my CRC errors are very low (they only go up during a storm, I believe a total of like 150 for the last month) but I'm still seeing 20ms added.

I've called CL and they're clueless about it.

retiredqwest
join:2005-04-01
Spokane, WA

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Click for full size
Click for full size
These are from the 2010 pdf that can be found online. I used to have a username/password at Adtran for other reasons..... I've been retired for 13 years.... even if I could remember it.... it's probably been purged by now.

In the 2nd image notice the difference between 26 and 24 gauge cable.
retiredqwest

retiredqwest to dslguy11

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to dslguy11
to dslguy11
Fast Path?
no idea..... I'm retired.....
coryw
join:2013-12-22
Flagstaff, AZ

coryw

Member

I hadn't had a real chance to look at it over the past few days, so I was pleased to see when I got home yesterday after a long day of moving that it has settled in at 50/20 megabits.

The SNRs are way down, 9dB downstream SNR, but the line looks stable. It accumulated a few CRCs, but those have stopped. I may try with my Q1000 when it's done at my old home to see if that modem says/does anything different.

I haven't checked xdslctl again yet, who knows if it'll still estimate 65/40 as a potential top speed, or if now that it's closer to 9dB SNR, it'll hold off on that estimate. 60/30 should be possible on my line with a 17MHz profile. The C1000a estimates that I'm at about 1000 feet from the DSLAM.
coryw

coryw to retiredqwest

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Good to know. This doesn't really answer my "generations" question, but it sounds like the issue there is that this is telecommunications equipment that for whatever reason isn't really well documented "in public" the way that, say, Macs or cars are.

The 4th generation TA11xx systems have much larger cooling fins though, and were introduced in super-late 2013 or some time in 2014, so it's reasonably safe to say that 17A has been there for "a while" at least.

Maybe it's really just ADSL2+ bonding and vectoring that were new in the newest versions.

retiredqwest
join:2005-04-01
Spokane, WA

retiredqwest

Member

said by coryw:

Good to know. This doesn't really answer my "generations" question, but it sounds like the issue there is that this is telecommunications equipment that for whatever reason isn't really well documented "in public" the way that, say, Macs or cars are.

The 4th generation TA11xx systems have much larger cooling fins though, and were introduced in super-late 2013 or some time in 2014, so it's reasonably safe to say that 17A has been there for "a while" at least.

Maybe it's really just ADSL2+ bonding and vectoring that were new in the newest versions.

Company's like CTL and Adtran use the phrase "Company Proprietary" on everything. Course the chance anyone would be caught is slim.... We weren't even supposed to take photos of the central off equipment.

As far as your C1000A saying you are 1000' from the dslam, is that an actual reading or based on the attenuation reading?
coryw
join:2013-12-22
Flagstaff, AZ

coryw

Member

There's a field on the status page in the current firmware that shows an estimated distance.

If I walked the path from my demarc to the cross-connect and then the DSLAM, I'd also estimate it at about 1000 feet.

retiredqwest
join:2005-04-01
Spokane, WA

retiredqwest

Member

said by coryw:

There's a field on the status page in the current firmware that shows an estimated distance.

If I walked the path from my demarc to the cross-connect and then the DSLAM, I'd also estimate it at about 1000 feet.

Humor me some more and post the downstream attenuation. Then I'll explain why I'm asking this.
coryw
join:2013-12-22
Flagstaff, AZ

coryw

Member

I'll grab it tonight(1). The attenuation was very low, as I recall. Also worth noting: The C1000a got a firmware update and it now displays attenuation in different bands, or something. (like, US0, US1, and US3 if I remember correctly, again, I'll have to look tonight.)

Just for fun and grins I do eventually want to connect my old Q1000 to the line to see what it does.

(1) I'm basically just waiting for the SBControlCenter to become available so I can buy/rent some statics. I finished moving everything except my server yesterday and have yet to have an opportunity to connect any more than one computer to the line, or else I'd just remote in and grab it right now.
coryw

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Click for full size
Connection Status
Click for full size
DSL Status
My apologies for the delay.

The SNR is 9 downstream and 18 upstream.

The Attenuation is
Down: (DS1)12.8, (DS2)26.5 dB
Up: US1)1.9, (US2)21.4, (US3)31.4 dB

The CRC count hasn't gone up in a few days, but I don't want to reboot the modem until it's time to do anything else with it.

retiredqwest
join:2005-04-01
Spokane, WA

retiredqwest

Member

said by coryw:

My apologies for the delay.

The SNR is 9 downstream and 18 upstream.

The Attenuation is
Down: (DS1)12.8, (DS2)26.5 dB
Up: US1)1.9, (US2)21.4, (US3)31.4 dB

The CRC count hasn't gone up in a few days, but I don't want to reboot the modem until it's time to do anything else with it.

People on here have used the site SG DSL Speed Calculator to calculate their distance from the dslam. 12.8 = 927 meters.... or 3027 feet on 26 gauge. 24 and 22 gauge makes the distance even further. I never had much faith in that distance calculator.

Of course, I have no idea what the multiple readings are all about versus a single reading from previous posts on here. My WAG is that they are using some kind of internal bonding of encoding streams. Kind of like Docsis 3.0 does.

I'm also curious on how the 17a profile could be implemented. I may never know....

Atom90
join:2014-12-05

Atom90

Member

said by retiredqwest:

People on here have used the site SG DSL Speed Calculator to calculate their distance from the dslam. 12.8 = 927 meters.... or 3027 feet on 26 gauge. 24 and 22 gauge makes the distance even further. I never had much faith in that distance calculator.

Great point, that calculator thinks I'm about a km closer to the dslam than I really am just by my 54db attenuation. It also tells me I can get 4000kbit sync with G.DMT while my actual modem says it can only get a max of 2500kbit. Since I'm so far I'm pretty sure that most of my line is either 24 or 22 gauge wire making a good estimate difficult, without testing a modem on the line.

retiredqwest
join:2005-04-01
Spokane, WA

retiredqwest

Member

This brings up an interesting observation.

When DSL came out the 3 mile limit was established around the CO's where service would probably work. And the dsl service orders were all designed circuits. That means a word document was attached to the order that would show all of the connections in the CO. And the last page had what we call the Loop Makeup or LMU for short. LMU would show the various lengths of cable and gauges to the serving terminal. Loops up to 15K' were almost always 26 gauge only. Upto 18K' always had 26 gauge and 24 gauge. Since I was the one who turned up DSL in Spokane around 1995 I saw every order and had a good feel of whether a circuit was going to work or not by just looking at the LMU. When I heard PPPOE was coming and the asinine amount of CBOS commands required.... I found another project to work on.

Now, when they started adding remote dslams they were always placed at x-connect points beyond the 3 mile radius. Thusly, I can't verify this, if you work thru a remote your line probably does not have any 26 gauge cable. And if you have a lot of 22 gauge..... ADSL goes a long way. And 19 gauge cable is probably non-existent nowadays. The smaller the cable gauge the more resistance per foot.

LMU is the primary item that determines your expected speed when using the loop qual page.
coryw
join:2013-12-22
Flagstaff, AZ

coryw to retiredqwest

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Not to sound ungrateful, but I could easily have done the SpeedGuide calculation on my own.

As Atom90 See Profile points out, those estimates can vary based on a lot of factors.

I am about a thousand percent sure, for example, that I am closer than 3027 feet. I haven't walked it, but if I went out my back door and opened the fence door, I can see the cross-connect. Either this means that the wiring here is a thick gauge, or that the SpeedGuide site can't or just doesn't account for things like a 12A profile.

I'm also pretty sure I could plug in a different modem or force a different mode on my end and get different attenuation numbers.

As such, to be honest, at any given point along the line where you splice in and hook up a DSL modem, I think that the SNRs your modem gets are more important because really, CL's gonna sell you the best effort within what backhaul a DSLAM has and the tier you can get, and the SNR is going to give you hints about how resistant to errors the line is going to be.

In re the multiple attenuations: it could be different bands within the overall 12MHz of signal frequency.
coryw

coryw

Member


wow. such speedtest.
I finally got done uploading a 500 gigabyte file to my Google Drive account, and so it was time to do a speedtest.

It's basically prime Netflix time here, and yet, my 40/20 line tests up at 46/19. So nice.

Atom90
join:2014-12-05

1 edit

Atom90

Member

said by coryw:

It's basically prime Netflix time here, and yet, my 40/20 line tests up at 46/19. So nice.

Netflix, youtube, and any other streaming service should only really be eating up 5Mbit or less for 1080p. Google fiber is ranked #1 by Netflix at an averaged DL rate of ~3Mbit. And most of netflix/youtube streaming problems come from inadequate peering to these extremely popular servers. Netflix should not really matter when dealing with snyc rates like yours, unless they have no real backbone to back up these fast packages.
coryw
join:2013-12-22
Flagstaff, AZ

coryw

Member

A common problem in Embarq-land is that during high usage times, such as 3 p.m. to 8 p.m. from when high schoolers get home to when people start going to bed, is that Netflix will buffer because even if somebody's syncing at 10M or 20M, the DSLAM and further up the stream the BRAS in the central office doesn't have enough throughput to keep everything running smoothly.

Fortunately, Qwest areas typically don't have those problems, and even over-provisioned to 50M, I can still get one or two Netflix streams over my sold rate on speedtests.

CenturyLink has thrown me an excellent bone by allowing the over-provisioning on business accounts.

Atom90
join:2014-12-05

Atom90

Member

said by coryw:

A common problem in Embarq-land is that during high usage times, such as 3 p.m. to 8 p.m. from when high schoolers get home to when people start going to bed, is that Netflix will buffer because even if somebody's syncing at 10M or 20M, the DSLAM and further up the stream the BRAS in the central office doesn't have enough throughput to keep everything running smoothly.

Netflix buffering during peak demand is more a symptom of its own popularity and the ISP not investing in better peering to Netflix servers. Which causes Netflix to pay ISPs to upgrade. But should only affect Netflix and any other highly demanding/super popular website like Youtube.

The only good thing about CL(Embarq) is that ping rates have been pretty constant through peak demand. Even though I can only get 1.5 they offer 10Mbit in town and have never been affected by peak demand. Other than streaming youtube which does slow down during peak demand but that's it. But my actual DL remains unchanged.
coryw
join:2013-12-22
Flagstaff, AZ

coryw

Member

That's good, but it's not typical of Embarq/CenturyTel areas.

Issues on the edge of any given last mile ISP network, such as Netflix peering issues tend to have an impact on more than just Netflix, because it's the peering point with a particular other ISP that's at fault. In particular, you could have a VPS hosted on an ISP that uses Cogent or Level3 (both of which Netflix have used at different times) or be using some other service that uses that provider as their ISP.

Another source of contention (and this is common on old T1-fed Qwest DSLAMs like my 1.5M line and in Embarq areas) is at the local DSLAM or the broadband server in the central office. This is the same as the node congestion that did/does affect most cable networks shortly after their movement to DOCSIS3 enabled them all to double-or-more their speeds without beefing up their backbones.

pjsutton
join:2013-06-25
Kempton, PA

pjsutton to coryw

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to coryw
Wow, great that they were able to get you 40/20! 20 Mbps upload on DSL just seems insane to me - AT&T doesn't offer anywhere near that on U-Verse.

Last I knew you could only get 1.5 Mbps, so good for you!
coryw
join:2013-12-22
Flagstaff, AZ

coryw

Member

I had to move to get it. I had to move anyway so I picked an address that qualified for this service.

60/30, 80/40 and 100/12 services are available at my address. There's talk about the possibility of doing 60/30 on a single pair, but they would need to use 17A to do it, or else my SNR will go too low. (As it is, my SNR is pretty low, but the service is stable and I'm not accumulating any errors at all.)

My next step is changing the PPPoE password, re-configuring the router and finding a spot for my server, as it's actually still in my old room, connected to the 1.5 megabit line.