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QBZappy
join:2012-05-10

QBZappy

Member

Freephoneline charges $35 per call for using 911

(Freephoneline user portal under "sip settings" tab)
YOUR SIP STATUS:
911 calls will incur a $35.00 charge per call. You will be charged $35.00 for each call to 911 made on an account with a VoIP unlock key.

I never paid attention to this detail. Do you guys know if this is a normal business practice with other voip service providers? Does voip.ms charge for 911?

ekster
Hi there
Premium Member
join:2010-07-16
Sainte-Anne-De-Bellevue, QC

ekster

Premium Member

The others usually charge a monthly fee. For voip.ms, for example, it's $1.50 a month.
kaila
join:2000-10-11
Lincolnshire, IL

kaila to QBZappy

Member

to QBZappy
This is not typical. ITSP's usually require a partner to register and tie subscribers voip numbers to the 911 ecosystem, and usually it's a monthly expense that's passed on.

I'm not familiar with freephoneline's services, but it's entirely possible they've negotiated with a 911 partner to bill them per call to better support their own business model.
QBZappy
join:2012-05-10

QBZappy

Member

said by kaila:

This is not typical. ITSP's usually require a partner to register and tie subscribers voip numbers to the 911 ecosystem, and usually it's a monthly expense that's passed on.

I'm not familiar with freephoneline's services, but it's entirely possible they've negotiated with a 911 partner to bill them per call to better support their own business model.

Freephoneline charges a one time (lifetime) flat fee without any reoccurring charges for usage. ie no monthly billing. This is already an unusual business model. I suppose that the $35 charge reflects a pooled average revenue comparable to the normal $1.5/month charged by others in the industry.

Thanks for the replies.
Zombie999
join:2004-05-04
Toronto, ON

1 recommendation

Zombie999

Member

Charging the fee is fine. Introducing a hefty fee, for something that was free without letting customers know, is not.

I've only noticed the fee when I logged in to port an important number to them. Otherwise, there is no need for me to look at the sip settings page, ever. Obviously, I gave up on porting, as company like this cannot be trusted.
fortissimo
join:2003-10-17
Richmond, BC

fortissimo

Member

I just saw this thread. I am not sure if I saw this before on the page or not. So this is new? I wonder when this has started and why they didn't notify customers? And this only affects those w/ SIP credentials. I wonder why?

cybersaga
join:2011-12-19
Selby, ON

cybersaga

Member

Without the SIP credentials you can only use their softphone, which, like Skype and Google Voice, doesn't come under the same regulatory requirements of having to provide 911 service.

I think.
Zombie999
join:2004-05-04
Toronto, ON

1 recommendation

Zombie999

Member

FPL does provide 911 using softphone for free. Their logic is simple. If you make 911 call using softphone, and you refuse to pay $35 after the call, all they can do is cancel your account. Then, you simply sign up for another free one.

On the other hand, if you paid $68 for SIP setting, you can either pay $35 or $68 for another account. So they keep you at ransom.
randix
Premium Member
join:2013-03-30
Toronto, ON

randix

Premium Member

said by Zombie999:

Their logic is simple.

The sad thing is that there is no logic in what this company is doing.
This kind of practice is at best scary for their customer base.

While I'm grateful to them for the the service provided at almost no cost, I have a very hard time to understand why do they have to sneak in the fee. I would have had no problem if they would properly announced the new fee/ policy.

And yes, I understand that they pay for abuse and people checking if e911 is the same as the old fashion one.

I remember years ago, when they started the service 2007 (maybe 2008) - they were posting on forums as regular clients all kind of positive reviews about the service. They were banned + most of the admins recommended against them.

digitalhome for example

The service was free, stable, decent quality, nothing similar was available so why did they do that?

Why? Why?
drivel
join:2013-07-12
Santa Clara, CA

drivel to QBZappy

Member

to QBZappy
The FCC will fine voip service providers a similar amount for each call made to 911 that the service provider does not handle correctly. (such as not providing location data).

My guess is freephoneline has decided it is simply easier to pass these fines on to their customers rather than fix the problem.

Trev
AcroVoice & DryVoIP Official Rep
Premium Member
join:2009-06-29
Victoria, BC

Trev

Premium Member

said by drivel:

The FCC will fine voip service providers a similar amount for each call made to 911 that the service provider does not handle correctly. (such as not providing location data).

Really? When Did that start?

I haven't heard of this.
said by drivel:

My guess is freephoneline has decided it is simply easier to pass these fines on to their customers rather than fix the problem.

I'm pretty sure they aren't subject to FCC regulations, so not sure why you'd think this is the case... or are they serving US customers now, too?
drivel
join:2013-07-12
Santa Clara, CA

drivel

Member

said by Trev:

said by drivel:

The FCC will fine voip service providers a similar amount for each call made to 911 that the service provider does not handle correctly. (such as not providing location data).

Really? When Did that start?

I haven't heard of this.

FCC will impose fines for various 911 violations. Here is a story about fines for not passing location data:

»www.geek.com/mobile/fcc- ··· -567912/

I do recall another story about $35 fines per call for a different type of violation.

My mistake. I thought freephone was a US company. I have no idea what Canadian 911 regulations are.
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1 to Trev

Premium Member

to Trev
The requirement to transmit location data is codified in US Federal Law. (Of course this does not apply to Freephoneline.CA which is solely a Canadian company).

(1) Interconnected VoIP service providers must, as a condition of providing service to a consumer, provide that consumer with E911 service as described in this section;

(2) Interconnected VoIP service providers must transmit all 911 calls, as well as ANI and the caller's Registered Location for each call, to the PSAP, designated statewide default answering point, or appropriate local emergency authority that serves the caller's Registered Location and that has been designated for telecommunications carriers pursuant to ยง64.3001 of this chapter, provided that “all 911 calls” is defined as “any voice communication initiated by an interconnected VoIP user dialing 911;”

(3) All 911 calls must be routed through the use of ANI and, if necessary, pseudo-ANI, via the dedicated Wireline E911 Network; and

(4) The Registered Location must be available to the appropriate PSAP, designated statewide default answering point, or appropriate local emergency authority from or through the appropriate automatic location information (ALI) database.

»www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/tex ··· &idno=47

The law sets out the broad requirements, but the specific details would be set out by FCC regulations.

Example:
»transition.fcc.gov/cgb/v ··· rder.pdf

Trev
AcroVoice & DryVoIP Official Rep
Premium Member
join:2009-06-29
Victoria, BC

Trev to drivel

Premium Member

to drivel
It seems to me the article is talking about wireless E911, which is a completely different ball game.

Specifically, I have never heard of a per-call charge that the FCC levies for a call that comes in without a proper address. Service providers charge fees as they need to have staff on hand to manually route these calls, but I've never heard of a a per-call FCC penalty.

The CRTC does not levy any per-call fees either.

Both agencies require 911 service be available nonetheless, but neither have set out specific fines.
tbrummell2
join:2002-02-09
Ottawa, ON

tbrummell2 to QBZappy

Member

to QBZappy
I am so, so, so glad I ported out from these fools. I was a loyal customer, wildly pushing their services on friends and family. I've since recanted, they suck. Just saying.
tbrummell2

tbrummell2

Member

They even post the $35 fee in their FAQ. I truly don't believe they have had this fee posted since January 2013 as stated by the subject date. This is a very unscrupulous company.
»support.freephoneline.ca ··· ce-Fire-

josephf
join:2009-04-26

1 recommendation

josephf

Member

said by tbrummell2:

They even post the $35 fee in their FAQ. I truly don't believe they have had this fee posted since January 2013 as stated by the subject date. This is a very unscrupulous company.
»support.freephoneline.ca ··· ce-Fire-

In the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine copies of that URL from September 2013 and March 2014, the $35 fee was not yet mentioned.

»web.archive.org/web/2013 ··· ce-Fire-

»web.archive.org/web/2014 ··· ce-Fire-

»web.archive.org/web/2015 ··· ce-Fire-
tbrummell2
join:2002-02-09
Ottawa, ON

1 recommendation

tbrummell2

Member

Thank you for proving my suspicions correct. Unscrupulous.
Dan_voip
join:2007-01-03
Saint-Hubert, QC

Dan_voip to tbrummell2

Member

to tbrummell2
said by tbrummell2:

I am so, so, so glad I ported out from these fools. I was a loyal customer, wildly pushing their services on friends and family. I've since recanted, they suck. Just saying.

I'm still a "loyal" customer using their service for free. Thanks to OP for pointing out this 911 fee. It's not the end of the world though, one can have e911 service from another company pretty cheap. We are no more tight up to the phone wire, we can use one VoIP company for incoming, one for e911 and few others for outgoing calls, that's the beauty of VoIP.
I agree that would have been nice from their part to send an email about TOS changes.
adit7
join:2013-04-02
Oakville, ON

1 edit

adit7

Member

Same here, nothing to complain about for a free service (after paying the one time fee). There is a comment on another forum, looks like they get charged (no clear how much) for those 911 calls.). They specify this fee will be charge especially for "test" calls (it looks like many want to test if it works and call 911 as test, which everybody knows that you should never do it, but probably many still do .I suppose they've got sh... from local 911 services and they just have to find a way to stop somehow the practice.

There is no clear answer but the devil is in details. And also there is no explanation of how they can charge this in case they want to as you don't have any monthly pay (credit card) with them. Anyway, if you need to call 911 and do not want to test the waters, use your cell phone. I suppose any body using VOIP has at least another way to call in case of emergency. I think the all story is overblown. They also specify (like most if not all other companies) that they can change at any time the agreement. The only thing they could do is to send an email about this but I'm sure looking at this responses here that if they did this their phone calls from customers would explode with complains. Remember Freephoneline is a no frills service sold "as is" without ANY official customer support (there is a way to get one from the forums is really a problem on their side, not your settings or hardware), but officially there is NO support. Even the one time fee is only for getting the credentials for VOIP you can use the service completely free with their softphone app if you want.Works for some does not work for others, don't like it don't use it but for me and many others the service works flawlessly for years with no monthly charges, whatsoever. I prefer a per use 911 fee even if high than to pay something monthly.
Mango
Use DMZ and you get a kick in the dick.
Premium Member
join:2008-12-25
www.toao.net

Mango

Premium Member

said by adit7:

I suppose they've got sh... from local 911 services and they just have to find a way to stop somehow the practice.

The alternate explanation is they're paying ~$1/month per customer for 911 service like all the other service providers do, and they decided they were losing too much money on it. The $35/call pricing structure allows them to recover that without adding a monthly fee.

cb14
join:2013-02-04
Miami Beach, FL

1 recommendation

cb14

Member

said by Mango:

The alternate explanation is they're paying ~$1/month per customer for 911 service like all the other service providers do, and they decided they were losing too much money on it. The $35/call pricing structure allows them to recover that without adding a monthly fee.

According the hints I so far received it's mor like $ .75/month( US) but that's not the point. Most people rarely, if ever, call 911. I called it once in my life. But I know for sure that many people will not take 35$ charge if it's about a neighbor's emergency. I also do not believe that the 35$ charge offsets the costs of maintaining the e911 service.
The whole business model stinks IMO.
Mango
Use DMZ and you get a kick in the dick.
Premium Member
join:2008-12-25
www.toao.net

Mango

Premium Member

I wouldn't mind paying $35, but what would suck is if I had to call back with additional details (this happened to me once) and had to pay $70.
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1 to cb14

Premium Member

to cb14
said by cb14:

But I know for sure that many people will not take 35$ charge if it's about a neighbor's emergency.

The $35 rule allows them to say they are complying with CRTC on paper, yet it has the effect of strongly discouraging using their 911 in real life.

People will preferentially grab their cellphone to call 911.

It's a gimmick, a ploy.

-----

AFAIK also there are a variety of 911 provisioning methods, some cost more than others. While the cheapest may be 72 cents a month, that is more of an "on the fly" service than those who authenticate the address in advance, and who have additional redundancy methods for callbacks.

The business continues to consolidate, eg West/Intrado acquired 911.Enable a few months ago.

adit7
join:2013-04-02
Oakville, ON

1 edit

adit7 to Mango

Member

to Mango
Yes, it's true. Don't forget the user must enter the correct address for the 911 in their account, but there is no way for them to do any check if the address is real, until the customer uses a credit card (for buying the VOIP credentials or long distance credits).Many never pay for anything just use the free soft app, so there is no way for them to charge that fee, they can just close the account and cancel the phone number I supposed, until they get a check. For some may be a problem for other does not matter,
Also after that thee is no check if the address changed. As a Canadian company Canadian rules apply related to 911 (not sure but may be slightly different than US ones).

Anyway, there is no public info how their business model work as they don't charge monthly fee or any termination fee and they cover a good chunk of Canada, I suppose some other parts of business may subsidize another part (it helps that the mother company is a telco also).

I don't care, the service is free and reliable using it for a few years now, just hope it will stay this way. They also have a sister company Fongo for the ones less technically inclined, offers customer support and pre-set ATAs for a small monthly fee, but I'm glad they also keep the DYI (with your own ATA) and no fee if you manage to do all by yourself. In fact is the only company I know which lets you do this. I'm sure that the one time $50 fee is less than what I would pay on any provider charging for calls per minute, I do mostly local calls but many time they can last for hours. For long distance, overseas I'm using another provider with better rates , one of the advantages of using VOIP I think. The phone has preprogramed the numbers I call so it automatically switching the OBI to the other provider so my wife can call also

Pwr2Ppl
@cisco.com

Pwr2Ppl to tbrummell2

Anon

to tbrummell2
For a free service, they are the best there is anywhere! Before FPL, I was mindlessly paying Bell $35/month for something that cost them pennies. Ever since 6 years, I've promoted and helped install FPL for 50 people and introduced Fongo to even more people. I think FPL poop is worth more than Rogers, Bell, Shaw and all the other phone companies combined.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere to tbrummell2

Premium Member

to tbrummell2
said by tbrummell2:

....Unscrupulous.

 
+1

Despicable.
Davesnothere

1 recommendation

Davesnothere to PX Eliezer1

Premium Member

to PX Eliezer1
said by PX Eliezer1:

The $35 rule allows them to say they are complying with CRTC on paper, yet it has the effect of strongly discouraging using their 911 in real life.

People will preferentially grab their cellphone to call 911.

It's a gimmick, a ploy....

 
It's treading on the boundaries of legality, and crossing over those of morals and ethics.

It's like taking advantage of a thirsty person with overpriced beverages.

And it's an incentive to keep your cellphone charged.

= = = = =

Furthermore, it's mean, nasty, and ugly.

FPL execs belong on the 'Group W' bench !
79176722 (banned)
VoIP.ms, Magento, and lotsa open tabs
join:2015-02-19
Miami, FL

1 edit

1 recommendation

79176722 (banned)

Member

said by Davesnothere:

FPL execs belong on the 'Group W' bench !

I was like.."???!!!"

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mo ··· _culture
The Group W bench, a key element of Arlo Guthrie's 1967 folk song and extended monologue "Alice's Restaurant", is a reference to the moral waiver provision -- the W stands for "waiver"; he described that key element of the work as a waiting area where he mingled with other potential inductees awaiting consideration under moral waiver.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· t=10m35s


»web.archive.org/web/2013 ··· es.shtml
And I, I walked over to the, to the bench there, and there is, Group W's
where they put you if you may not be moral enough to join the army after
committing your special crime, and there was all kinds of mean nasty ugly
looking people on the bench there. Mother rapers. Father stabbers. Father
rapers! Father rapers sitting right there on the bench next to me! And
they was mean and nasty and ugly and horrible crime-type guys sitting on the
bench next to me. And the meanest, ugliest, nastiest one, the meanest
father raper of them all, was coming over to me and he was mean 'n' ugly
'n' nasty 'n' horrible and all kind of things and he sat down next to me
and said, "Kid, whad'ya get?" I said, "I didn't get nothing, I had to pay
$50 and pick up the garbage." He said, "What were you arrested for, kid?"
And I said, "Littering." And they all moved away from me on the bench
there, and the hairy eyeball and all kinds of mean nasty things, till I
said, "And creating a nuisance." And they all came back, shook my hand,
and we had a great time on the bench, talkin about crime, mother stabbing,
father raping, all kinds of groovy things that we was talking about on the
bench.


Thanks for the edemeduca'shon!


Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere

Premium Member

 
Not to be confused with George W.

HE's a whole different character, and story....

Thanks for doing the lookups.

BTW, if that clip runs only 10m35s, it is incomplete.

The LP record had dedicated a whole side of around 17m to the title cut.