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webcobbler
join:2013-03-09
Rumson, NJ

1 recommendation

webcobbler

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List of MPEG-4 Channels

I thought I should start a Thread about this.

I know that this has been discussed in the past. Per this one: »Which channels are on MPEG 4?

However, since that was nearly a year and a half ago, I would think that more channels have become or added in said format since then.

So I ask if anyone knows of channel that are in MPEG4, please add them. Preferably in MHz / QAM groupings, so it is easier to read, IMHO.

I am sure there are people out there, like myself, that are interesting in which ones are and are not.

Thank You.

Greg2600
join:2008-05-20
Belleville, NJ

Greg2600

Member

BetaMax is usually the best source for these.

aaronwt
Premium Member
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA

aaronwt to webcobbler

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to webcobbler
I know they added a channel in the past week that uses H.264. Although I can't remember what the name of it is..

nycdave
MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY

nycdave

MVM

FS2 HD channel 584 and TV One HD channel 771 are both MPEG4 at 261 MHz.

aaronwt
Premium Member
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA
Asus RT-AX89

aaronwt

Premium Member

said by nycdave:

FS2 HD channel 584 and TV One HD channel 771 are both MPEG4 at 261 MHz.

Something showed up on my Roamio Pro TiVo that was using H.264. I only know because I got a message saying it was added. And then I added it to my channel list. When I checked the diagnostics it showed it was using H.264. But I have no idea what the channel was. I do remember it was not a channel I would normally watch. It may have even been in spanish. I have no way to know though since I delete the messages right away. I guess I need to stop doing that.
Betamax76
join:2008-10-16
Canonsburg, PA

5 recommendations

Betamax76 to Greg2600

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to Greg2600
said by Greg2600:

BetaMax is usually the best source for these.

There are currently 12 MPEG-4 QAM carriers with a total of 58 channels. There is room for two more MPEG-4 channels without adding another QAM carrier which involves moving more MPEG-2 channels to higher compression levels. Prior to Outdoor Channel HD being removed, there was only 1 remaining slot for an additional MPEG-4 channel.

* QAM 4 (69 MHz):
604 Bloomberg HD, 692 Pivot HD, 726 Revolt HD, 810 MAV HD, 834 MLB Strike Zone HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 19 (153 MHz):
Spanish Ultra HD Plex Channels 1570, 1585, 1650, 1691, 1693 (MPEG-4)

* QAM 30 (261 MHz): ** Room for 1 more HD channel **
584 Fox Sports 2 HD, 658 WOW HD, 771 TV One HD, 798 UpLift HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 36 (297 MHz):
1466 to 1470 MLB/NHL Season HD1, HD2, HD3, HD4, HD5 (MPEG-4)

* QAM 42 (333 MHz):
616 One America News HD, 806 Willow HD, 1515 Antenna3 HD, 1759 MBC Drama USA HD, 1769 TV Japan HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 54 (405 MHz):
1450 to 1454 NBA/Major League Soccer Season Pass HD1, HD2, HD3, HD4, HD5 (MPEG-4)

* QAM 84 (585 MHz):
571 ESPN Goal Line, 737 Sony Movie Channel HD, 744 MGM Channel, 804 Universal Sports HD, 817 World Fishing Network HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 100 (651 MHz):
558 ES.TV, 599 Cars.TV, 695 Comedy.TV, 1538 beIN Spanish HD, 1539 Univision Deportes HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 101 (657 MHz):
633 Pets.TV, 674 MyDestination.TV, 676 Recipe.TV, 688 Ovation HD, 805 beIN HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 105 (681 MHz):
1471 to 1474 MLB/NHL Season HD6, HD7, HD8, HD9, 1537 ESPN Deportes HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 114 (735 MHz): ** Room for 1 more HD channel **
567 Universal HD, 735 Sundance HD, 793 Daystar HD, 807 formerly Outdoor HD (now vacant), 950 Playboy HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 125 (801 MHz):
1516 Multimedios HD, Spanish Ultra HD Plex Channels 1670, 1690, 1692, 1730 (MPEG-4)

wmcbrine
join:2002-12-30
Laurel, MD

wmcbrine

Member

said by Betamax76:

There is room for two more MPEG-4 channels without adding another QAM carrier which involves moving more MPEG-2 channels to higher compression levels.

Other than, I guess, neatness, is there any reason MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 channels can't share the same QAM?
Betamax76
join:2008-10-16
Canonsburg, PA

Betamax76

Member

said by wmcbrine:

Other than, I guess, neatness, is there any reason MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 channels can't share the same QAM?

I think it could be done, but Verizon hasn't tried it yet. A combination of four MPEG-4 channels (at 7 Mbps) and one MPEG-2 channel (at 12 Mbps) would be slightly more efficient. MPEG-2 channels at 12 Mbps are comparable in quality to putting three MPEG-2 channels on a single QAM carrier.
webcobbler
join:2013-03-09
Rumson, NJ

webcobbler to Betamax76

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to Betamax76
Thank You, Betamax.

This is much appreciated.

webcobbler

Although, seeing that Goal Line is MPEG4, I am wondering why we do not have other ESPN networks in said format?

AFAIK, ESPN went Full MPEG4 a couple years ago. Plus they have the ability for true 1080p/60 broadcasting. At least at their newest facility in Connecticut, I believe.
Betamax76
join:2008-10-16
Canonsburg, PA

Betamax76

Member

said by webcobbler:

Although, seeing that Goal Line is MPEG4, I am wondering why we do not have other ESPN networks in said format?

ESPN Goal Line HD is on a higher tier than the other ESPN networks. There are still too many Motorola 6000 series boxes in the field to switch the other ESPN networks to MPEG-4.
webcobbler
join:2013-03-09
Rumson, NJ

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webcobbler

Member

Yes, I would agree. However, they need to switch to all MPEG4 boxes eventually. They can not leave 6xxx and SD only boxes in the field forever.

By that time, they will probably have HEVC (h.265) boxes out by then.

Also, they still have to convert the 10 channels from the Thread link in my Original Post still.
dfwguy
join:2013-10-24

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dfwguy to Betamax76

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to Betamax76
said by Betamax76:

said by wmcbrine:

Other than, I guess, neatness, is there any reason MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 channels can't share the same QAM?

I think it could be done, but Verizon hasn't tried it yet. A combination of four MPEG-4 channels (at 7 Mbps) and one MPEG-2 channel (at 12 Mbps) would be slightly more efficient. MPEG-2 channels at 12 Mbps are comparable in quality to putting three MPEG-2 channels on a single QAM carrier.

4*7+12=40Mb/s, and a QAM channel is 38.8Mb/s, and Verizon typically reserves 1Mb/s of that for metadata. Then you've got one or more audio tracks on each channel, which typically run 384 or 448k for the primary track on channels with DD5.1 audio, and somewhere between 192 and 256k for stereo. It likely could be done from a technical perspective but it would be more like 6Mb/s for the H.264 channels, which is a little low, especially for sports and other high-motion content.

cypherstream
MVM
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA

cypherstream to Betamax76

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to Betamax76
So I am reading this correctly MPEG4 allows them to put 5 HD in a single QAM? Hows the quality look 5:1 HD at MPEG4 vs 4:1 HD at MPEG4 vs 3:1 HD at MPEG2 vs 2:1 HD at MPEG2 ?
Betamax76
join:2008-10-16
Canonsburg, PA

Betamax76

Member

said by cypherstream:

So I am reading this correctly MPEG4 allows them to put 5 HD in a single QAM? Hows the quality look 5:1 HD at MPEG4 vs 4:1 HD at MPEG4 vs 3:1 HD at MPEG2 vs 2:1 HD at MPEG2 ?

Yes, the max is 5 MPEG-4 HD channels per QAM. I think the picture quality of the MPEG-4 channels is better than the 3:1 packed MPEG-2 channels. To my eyes, the 2:1 MPEG-2 HD channels (TBS, TNT, ESPN, USA Network) look the best though. Many of the most popular channels like ESPN are received at the SuperHeadend in MPEG-4 and converted to MPEG-2 where some loss might occur.

cypherstream
MVM
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
·PenTeleData
ARRIS SB8200

cypherstream

MVM

Is there a noticeable difference in quality between 5 MPEG4 vs 4 MPEG4 in the same QAM?

I know DirecTV packed 5 HD in MPEG4 and then they started doing 6 HD, but there wasn't any noticeable difference in quality. I believe they choose the 6 HD channels that shared a transponder wisely. I think they were working with 40mbps or so window as well, so only a few mbps more than cable QAM. There are some wider width transponders for some local markets but the majority of conus broadcasts are around 40mbps. Having not seen MPEG4 in the cable world widely deployed yet, I thought it would be interesting to compare.
Betamax76
join:2008-10-16
Canonsburg, PA

Betamax76

Member

said by cypherstream:

Is there a noticeable difference in quality between 5 MPEG4 vs 4 MPEG4 in the same QAM?

I can't tell any difference on a 65 inch display. In fact, the last MPEG-4 QAM RF carrier added started with only one HD channel and looked the same as fully loaded carriers.

Thinkdiff
MVM,
join:2001-08-07
Bronx, NY

Thinkdiff

MVM,

Just because there's more QAM space available (on a 1 or 4 channel slot) doesn't mean they're actually using it. Did you verify the bitrate of that MPEG4 channel was actually higher than any of the 4 or 5 channel per slot ones?
Betamax76
join:2008-10-16
Canonsburg, PA

Betamax76

Member

said by Thinkdiff:

Did you verify the bitrate of that MPEG4 channel was actually higher than any of the 4 or 5 channel per slot ones?

I have no idea what the bitrate was when the channel count was reduced.

Some carriers like Dish are able to squeeze in more MPEG-4 HD channels per transponder by lowering the resolution, which video enthusiasts refer to as "HD Lite." My brother has Dish and I think the quality is comparable to MPEG-2 HD channels on FiOS which are packed 3 to a carrier.

So to summarize FiOS picture quality:
Good: 3 MPEG-2 HD channels per QAM, about the same quality as Dish's MPEG-4 HD channels
Better: 5 MPEG-4 HD channels per QAM
Best: 2 MPEG-2 HD channels per QAM (not 1080p Blu-ray but the gold standard for cable TV until 4K or 8K becomes widespread)

DirecTV is generally considered to have better picture quality than Dish. Both have occasional rain fade issues.
dfwguy
join:2013-10-24

dfwguy to cypherstream

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to cypherstream
said by cypherstream:

Is there a noticeable difference in quality between 5 MPEG4 vs 4 MPEG4 in the same QAM?

No. Keep in mind that most cable channels are only fed at 8-10Mb/s H.264 to begin with, so getting near or beyond that isn't going to noticeably increase quality above the ~7Mb/s Verizon delivers on the typical channels. The encoder utilizes statmuxing so higher complexity scenes are given more bits, so it's even harder to identify any flaws. There are some minor PQ issues on channels like BeIN Sports and ESPN Deportes (probably the only H.264 channels I regularly watched before FS2 launched), but without a side by side comparison it's impossible to say if those are Verizon's fault or the fault of the networks.

Branch
:D
Premium Member
join:2014-07-22
VHO 4

2 edits

Branch

Premium Member

QAM 84 (585 MHz) will have an open (MPEG-4) spot now with the dropping of Universal Sports.

Are we all out of MPEG-2 space?
Betamax76
join:2008-10-16
Canonsburg, PA

Betamax76

Member

said by Branch:

Are we all out of MPEG-2 space?

In the biggest markets with the most local channels, there are no open slots for MPEG-2 additions. But if MPEG-2 HD channels must be added, they will find room.

Technically FiOS TV has been out of space for over four years. The fix has been moving less popular and non-sports channels to higher compression levels. Until 2011, all HD channels on FiOS were loaded 2 per QAM in MPEG-2. Higher compression increased that to 3 HD channels per QAM for MPEG-2 and 5 HD channels per QAM for MPEG-4. The most popular and sports HD channels (including all broadcast and cable channels like ESPN, TNT, TBS, USA, ESPN2, NBC Sports, SEC, Fox Sports 1) remain loaded 2 per QAM in MPEG-2. But HD channels like CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, Accuweather, Fox Business, CNBC, History, Food, and HGTV are still only loaded 2 per QAM in MPEG-2 and are prime candidates for higher compression in MPEG-2 if space is needed now.
webcobbler
join:2013-03-09
Rumson, NJ

1 recommendation

webcobbler

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I know more than likely we are out if MPEG-2 space here.

I still do not see why they can not convert to MPEG-4. Even one channel at a time. And yes, I know still lots of 6xxx boxes are out there. But still, they are EOL.
Betamax76
join:2008-10-16
Canonsburg, PA

Betamax76

Member

said by webcobbler:

I still do not see why they can not convert to MPEG-4. Even one channel at a time. And yes, I know still lots of 6xxx boxes are out there. But still, they are EOL.

I am optimistic (no hard facts to support) that a transition to all MPEG-4 HD cable channels (broadcast channels would likely remain MPEG-2 since they are delivered this way from the broadcaster) will occur after Frontier takes control of VHO1 (Texas), VHO2 (Florida), and VHO3 (California). My theory is that since these are the oldest VHOs they have the most Motorola 6000 series boxes. Some of the biggest VHOs like New York City didn't offer TV until the summer of 2008 by which time the Motorola 7000 series boxes had launched.
webcobbler
join:2013-03-09
Rumson, NJ

webcobbler

Member

Betamax76,

I will agree as well, that I believe something will happene with regard to channels after the selloff of said areas around the end of the year/Q1. Also, I would think that SD channels will remain in MPEG-2 form. Just for the plain fact that people still use Digital Adapters and SD boxes ( Grandfathered in, or otherwise ), and they do not want to re-issue MPEG4 compatible ones. IMO.

Also, as you said, those three areas are the oldest, and most likely have the most 6xxx boxes in the field.

Branch
:D
Premium Member
join:2014-07-22
VHO 4

Branch

Premium Member

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe GSN was the last nationwide MPEG-2 add.

matcarl
Premium Member
join:2007-03-09
Franklin Square, NY

matcarl

Premium Member

Wasn't that added a very long time ago? We've had MPEG-2 adds within the last couple of months. I've seen people post about them, but don't remember which they are.
matcarl

matcarl

Premium Member

NickToons was one of them, added in July

Branch
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join:2014-07-22
VHO 4

Branch

Premium Member

My bad, thought that was MPEG-4.
webcobbler
join:2013-03-09
Rumson, NJ

1 edit

1 recommendation

webcobbler

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Here is an update to the list, reflecting Centric HD channel add. Replacing the discontinued Universal Sports HD one. Also BeIN HD 805 moved to 596.

* QAM 4 (69 MHz):
604 Bloomberg HD, 692 Pivot HD, 726 Revolt HD, 810 MAV HD, 834 MLB Strike Zone HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 19 (153 MHz):
Spanish Ultra HD Plex Channels 1570, 1585, 1650, 1691, 1693 (MPEG-4)

* QAM 30 (261 MHz): ** Room for 1 more HD channel **
584 Fox Sports 2 HD, 658 WOW HD, 771 TV One HD, 798 UpLift HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 36 (297 MHz):
1466 to 1470 MLB/NHL Season HD1, HD2, HD3, HD4, HD5 (MPEG-4)

* QAM 42 (333 MHz):
616 One America News HD, 806 Willow HD, 1515 Antenna3 HD, 1759 MBC Drama USA HD, 1769 TV Japan HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 54 (405 MHz):
1450 to 1454 NBA/Major League Soccer Season Pass HD1, HD2, HD3, HD4, HD5 (MPEG-4)

* QAM 84 (585 MHz; MPEG-4):
571 ESPN Goal Line/Buzzer Beater HD, 720 Centric HD, 737 Sony Movie Channel HD, 744 MGM Channel HD, 817 World Fishing Network HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 100 (651 MHz):
558 ES.TV, 599 Cars.TV, 695 Comedy.TV, 1538 beIN Spanish HD, 1539 Univision Deportes HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 101 (657 MHz):
633 Pets.TV, 674 MyDestination.TV, 676 Recipe.TV, 688 Ovation HD, 596 beIN HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 105 (681 MHz):
1471 to 1474 MLB/NHL Season HD6, HD7, HD8, HD9, 1537 ESPN Deportes HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 114 (735 MHz): ** Room for 1 more HD channel **
567 Universal HD, 735 Sundance HD, 793 Daystar HD, 807 formerly Outdoor HD (now vacant), 950 Playboy HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 125 (801 MHz):
1516 Multimedios HD, Spanish Ultra HD Plex Channels 1670, 1690, 1692, 1730 (MPEG-4)
Betamax76
join:2008-10-16
Canonsburg, PA

2 edits

Betamax76

Member

There were also two additional changes since I originally posted the list in October. One World Sports HD and evine Live HD were added and are now posted below. There are now 60 HD channels broadcast in MPEG-4. In VHOs like Philly, Verizon is out of space, but if they were to increase the MPEG-4 loading to 6 HD channels per QAM (up from 5), two new QAM frequencies would be created. If Comcast is loading 10 MPEG-4 HD channels per QAM, surely Verizon could try 6 per QAM.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------

* QAM 4 (69 MHz):
604 Bloomberg HD, 692 Pivot HD, 726 Revolt HD, 810 MAV HD, 834 MLB Strike Zone HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 19 (153 MHz):
Spanish Ultra HD Plex Channels 1570, 1585, 1650, 1691, 1693 (MPEG-4)

* QAM 30 (261 MHz):
584 Fox Sports 2 HD, 657 evine Live HD, 658 WOW HD, 659 Enrich HD, 771 TV One HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 36 (297 MHz):
1466 to 1470 MLB/NHL Season HD1, HD2, HD3, HD4, HD5 (MPEG-4)

* QAM 42 (333 MHz):
616 One America News HD, 806 Willow HD, 1515 Antenna3 HD, 1759 MBC Drama USA HD, 1769 TV Japan HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 54 (405 MHz):
1450 to 1454 NBA/Major League Soccer Season Pass HD1, HD2, HD3, HD4, HD5 (MPEG-4)

* QAM 84 (585 MHz):
571 ESPN Goal Line/Buzzer Beater HD, 720 Centric HD, 737 Sony Movie Channel HD, 744 MGM Channel HD, 817 World Fishing Network HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 100 (651 MHz):
558 ES.TV, 599 Cars.TV, 695 Comedy.TV, 1538 beIN Spanish HD, 1539 Univision Deportes HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 101 (657 MHz):
596 beIN HD, 633 Pets.TV, 674 MyDestination.TV, 676 Recipe.TV, 688 Ovation HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 105 (681 MHz):
1471 to 1474 MLB/NHL Season HD6, HD7, HD8, HD9, 1537 ESPN Deportes HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 114 (735 MHz):
567 Universal HD, 597 One World Sports HD, 735 Sundance HD, 793 Daystar HD, , 950 Playboy HD (MPEG-4)

* QAM 125 (801 MHz):
1516 Multimedios HD, Spanish Ultra HD Plex Channels 1670, 1690, 1692, 1730 (MPEG-4)