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PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

4 recommendations

PX Eliezer1

Premium Member

Cellular 911 and the death of Prince Rogers Nelson

We've talked here before about the limitations of cellphone 911.

This tragedy is another illustration.

I am NOT saying it would have made any difference in the end here. It would not have.

But maybe in some OTHER case it might.

-----

So the call to 911 was made on cellphone.

Problems:

1) The person making the call had no idea of the street address.

2) Because it was cellular 911 (rather than VoIP 911 or POTS 911) this information was not available to the dispatchers either.

3) As well, the caller had no idea of the correct city. They said Minneapolis (which is in Hennepin County), it was actually Chanhassen (in Carver County).

4) The cellular 911 call actually DID reach the Carver County sheriff, and that agency provides the police service for Chanhassen. But because the caller said Minneapolis, the dispatchers were originally confused.

5) This points up the problems with cellular 911.

5b) If the response is, "Well, dammit, the local cops should know where Prince lived" my point is that this doesn't apply for an average person like Joe Smith or Juan Hernandez.

911 transcript:
»heavy.com/news/2016/04/p ··· ark-pdf/

-----

TL/DR: Multiple 911 contact methods are good, but VoIP 911 with proper address verification has an advantage over cellular 911.

josephf
join:2009-04-26

3 recommendations

josephf

Member

I was sure that for a number of years already cellular 911 has been providing the dispatcher the GPS coordinates of the caller.
lorennerol
Premium Member
join:2003-10-29
Seattle, WA

5 recommendations

lorennerol to PX Eliezer1

Premium Member

to PX Eliezer1
We are truly collectively in trouble if we are relying on technology to be smarter and more aware of our circumstances that we are. Yes, calling 911 and having them know the source address automatically is nice. But *counting* on that? Nope, that's a bad, bad idea. I feel the same way about depending on my car to prevent me from running off the road or into other cars.

Humans abdicating personal awareness and accountability to technology is unwise, IMO.
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

2 recommendations

PX Eliezer1 to josephf

Premium Member

to josephf
said by josephf:

I was sure that for a number of years already cellular 911 has been providing the dispatcher the GPS coordinates of the caller.

Not always, not dependably, not accurately, not quickly.

911's deadly flaw: Lack of location data
»www.usatoday.com/story/n ··· 3570499/

Calling 911 On Your Cell? It's Harder To Find You Than You Think
»www.npr.org/sections/all ··· ou-think

Cell phone lobby win means 'more people will die'
»www.publicintegrity.org/ ··· will-die

That's the story.
aguen
Premium Member
join:2003-07-16
Grants Pass, OR

aguen to PX Eliezer1

Premium Member

to PX Eliezer1
I'm a voip user as well as a relatively new Smart phone user (smarter than me anyway). My carrier is T-Mo, before my phone could make outbound phone calls, I needed to input my home/billing address. This of course is fine IF I'm at home. If I'm on the road it's useless, especially if I'm NOT the one making the call for help.
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

2 recommendations

PX Eliezer1 to lorennerol

Premium Member

to lorennerol
said by lorennerol:

We are truly collectively in trouble if we are relying on technology to be smarter and more aware of our circumstances that we are.

We rely on it all the time. That's a done deal.

-----

Now, here's the choice in the present discussion:

a) VoIP/POTS 911: Dispatcher has the address, asks the caller if 123 Main Street is the correct address.

b) Cellular 911: Dispatcher does not have the address, or even the correct city, asks caller to ascertain it.

Both (a) and (b) depend on the caller's response, so your point is well taken, but (a) has more redundancy.

If the caller himself passes out during the call, (a) is also better.
mikev
Premium Member
join:2002-05-04
Leesburg, VA
·Verizon FiOS
(Software) pfSense
Panasonic KX-TGP600

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mikev to aguen

Premium Member

to aguen
said by aguen:

I'm a voip user as well as a relatively new Smart phone user (smarter than me anyway). My carrier is T-Mo, before my phone could make outbound phone calls, I needed to input my home/billing address. This of course is fine IF I'm at home. If I'm on the road it's useless, especially if I'm NOT the one making the call for help.

That would be used for any WiFi calling done from your phone. If you're connected to a WiFi network and your phone is making WiFi calls instead of over the cell network, that's when the address would be used. You should be able to turn off WiFi calling somewhere in your phone's settings.

The address you enter should have no effect whatsoever on 911 calls made over the cellular network.

josephf
join:2009-04-26

1 recommendation

josephf to PX Eliezer1

Member

to PX Eliezer1
Let's not forget the pretty significant resistance we heard from the VoIP industry when the FCC first proposed mandating they provide E-911 and about the associated costs to implement and support it.
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

1 recommendation

PX Eliezer1

Premium Member

said by josephf:

Let's not forget the pretty significant resistance we heard from the VoIP industry when the FCC first proposed mandating they provide E-911 and about the associated costs to implement and support it.

I don't see the relevance to the present discussion.

The automobile manufacturers fought like hell against seat belts in the 1960's. Later they fought like hell against air bags. The carmakers were wrong in each case. But that's all part of the background landscape now.

josephf
join:2009-04-26

josephf

Member

Not directly relevant, but I thought its an interesting (and related) observation.

Napsterbater
Meh
MVM
join:2002-12-28
Milledgeville, GA
(Software) OPNsense
Ubiquiti UniFi UAP-AC-PRO

1 recommendation

Napsterbater to PX Eliezer1

MVM

to PX Eliezer1
Cellular e911 can only even be as good as the GPS system it uses.

Note, even though the Google Maps app or the Facebook app on a phone can pinpoint you quickly using WiFi networks for additional location information, the e911 on the phone can only use true GPS, GLONASS, etc. And that can take time to lock a position or be in inside may not be able to lock one at all or if it does its accuracy confidence may not be high and provide a large margin of error.

And until that GPS data can come trough at all if ever all they have is what tower and what 120deg +/-(in most cases) sector the caller is on and MAYBE the estimated distance again with a margin for error.

But when it works, its works great, If I call 911 from my house I do get the next counties 911 center since that is where the Cell tower is located, BUT, they were able to locate my near pinpoint location within a min.

rolandh
Premium Member
join:2015-01-02

1 recommendation

rolandh to PX Eliezer1

Premium Member

to PX Eliezer1
said by PX Eliezer1:

We've talked here before about the limitations of cellphone 911.

This tragedy is another illustration.

I am NOT saying it would have made any difference in the end here. It would not have.

But maybe in some OTHER case it might.

-----

So the call to 911 was made on cellphone.

Problems:

1) The person making the call had no idea of the street address.

2) Because it was cellular 911 (rather than VoIP 911 or POTS 911) this information was not available to the dispatchers either.

3) As well, the caller had no idea of the correct city. They said Minneapolis (which is in Hennepin County), it was actually Chanhassen (in Carver County).

4) The cellular 911 call actually DID reach the Carver County sheriff, and that agency provides the police service for Chanhassen. But because the caller said Minneapolis, the dispatchers were originally confused.

5) This points up the problems with cellular 911.

5b) If the response is, "Well, dammit, the local cops should know where Prince lived" my point is that this doesn't apply for an average person like Joe Smith or Juan Hernandez.

911 transcript:
»heavy.com/news/2016/04/p ··· ark-pdf/

-----

TL/DR: Multiple 911 contact methods are good, but VoIP 911 with proper address verification has an advantage over cellular 911.

Your points regarding the advantages of VoIP/Pots based 911 compared to cellular 911 are spot on. That said, the demographic trend towards predominantly wireless as opposed to fixed-location telephony isn't going to change.

Two key demographics drive that. Younger people and those with relatively lower incomes. Younger people not only are abandoning fixed-location phones, increasingly they choose methods of communication other than voice. For those whose income might dictate making a choice between a wireless and fixed-location phone, wireless will win every time.

Given these trends, the long-term solution has to be improvements to cellular 911 including Text-to-911, »www.fcc.gov/consumers/gu ··· text-911. Meanwhile, there are some finding ways to leverage technology to try and fill the gap. Here is one example, »getbluelight.com.
DaveSin
join:2009-07-17

DaveSin to josephf

Member

to josephf
said by josephf:

I was sure that for a number of years already cellular 911 has been providing the dispatcher the GPS coordinates of the caller.

The problem with GPS coordinates is that within Apartment/Townhouse Complexes it can be problematic. There was a local case where a young woman (~18 years old) was viciously attacked by a teenager and left to die (I don't think she was able to speak). She called 911 on her cellphone and the police arrived, but couldn't locate the exact apartment unit. After searching for close to 30 minutes, they were able to locate the unit using a partially opened sliding door. Unfortunately, by the time they entered the unit, she was dead.
8744675
join:2000-10-10
Decatur, GA

1 recommendation

8744675 to PX Eliezer1

Member

to PX Eliezer1
A recent local news story in Georgia said that 911 can only locate only 40% of it's calls received from cellphones because the technology being used is obsolete. Even though you can pinpoint the location of a cellphone with accuracy down to a feet using it's GPS using a Find My Phone app, the GPS coordinates don't get passed to 911 during a call. They are still attempting to locate callers using triangulation between cell towers.

A developer they interviewed said they could provide a simple way to better locate people tomorrow if the government would listen.

People are under the false impression that 911 can find you where ever you are. NOT! Unfortunately, you have to know exactly where you are when you call 911 or you may not get help you need.

Napsterbater
Meh
MVM
join:2002-12-28
Milledgeville, GA
(Software) OPNsense
Ubiquiti UniFi UAP-AC-PRO

1 edit

2 recommendations

Napsterbater

MVM

said by 8744675:

the GPS coordinates don't get passed to 911 during a call. They are still attempting to locate callers using triangulation between cell towers.

that is correct if the 911 center has not upgraded to e911 phase 2, but that is on the 911 center, not the Cell Co.
said by 8744675:

A recent local news story in Georgia said that 911 can only locate only 40% of it's calls received from cellphones because the technology being used is obsolete. Even though you can pinpoint the location of a cellphone with accuracy down to a feet using it's GPS using a Find My Phone app,

Those apps use more then GPS, they use unverified WiFi Network information to assist in locations.

e911 cannot use that info. It has to be pure GPS, and fixed cell tower info.
said by 8744675:

People are under the false impression that 911 can find you where ever you are. NOT! Unfortunately, you have to know exactly where you are when you call 911 or you may not get help you need.

It CAN locate you just fine but its not perfect, its a backup.

Sounds like a typical news story with half truths.
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1 to rolandh

Premium Member

to rolandh
said by rolandh:

Meanwhile, there are some finding ways to leverage technology to try and fill the gap. Here is one example, »getbluelight.com.

That's an interesting service, thank you!
nonymous (banned)
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ

nonymous (banned) to lorennerol

Member

to lorennerol
GPS would be good for when AI am driving on an unfamiliar road. I may know what road I am on but don't always keep place markers or mile markers updated in my mind while driving.
A familiar road sure just past this place mark. New road not so much.
tbrummell2
join:2002-02-09
Ottawa, ON

tbrummell2 to PX Eliezer1

Member

to PX Eliezer1
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/En ··· ed_9-1-1

Scroll down to Wireless.
Mango
Use DMZ and you get a kick in the dick.
Premium Member
join:2008-12-25
www.toao.net

Mango to nonymous

Premium Member

to nonymous
Indeed a GPS is very useful. I've thankfully never needed to call 911 from the road but did call a tow truck once. My GPS has a 'where am I' feature that you can just read off to any dispatcher. It says something like "Southbound Highway 99, 3.5 km south of the Queen's Overpass, 0.25 km before exit 264 to Ferries."

I know how to navigate the area, but there is no way I could have been that specific. The tow was there in no time.

cb14
join:2013-02-04
Miami Beach, FL

1 recommendation

cb14 to josephf

Member

to josephf
said by josephf:

I was sure that for a number of years already cellular 911 has been providing the dispatcher the GPS coordinates of the caller.

Not where I live. Does not exist. And the metro area has been hacked into 100+ pieces of little corrupt fiefdoms called " cities" and metro unincorporated areas, so even for the locals it is very often difficult to determine where you are without checking the tax roll. There are enclaves of one 'city" within another "city", unincorporated city areas in the middle of a city, but having a zip code and name belonging to another' "city" not surrounding the area etc. I was desperately seeking for a business on an address which was in a townhouse complex, while the same business was half a mile east with the SAME address. That;'s because the townhouse complex I went first to was on a quarter mile long stretch on the south side of the street which was an enclave of a different city, which wielding it's autonomy gave it the same street address as to the business I looked for.
To make it short, in this type of mess even real 911 can be problematic and cellular 911 near useless.
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1

Premium Member

said by cb14:

Not where I live. Does not exist. And the metro area has been hacked into 100+ pieces of little corrupt fiefdoms called " cities" and metro unincorporated areas, so even for the locals it is very often difficult to determine where you are without checking the tax roll. There are enclaves of one 'city" within another "city", unincorporated city areas in the middle of a city, but having a zip code and name belonging to another' "city" not surrounding the area etc.

Having lived in several states and being heavily interested in municipal boundaries since childhood, I vouch for this and more besides.

-----

As a broader issue, and back to the Prince 911 cellphone call, the person mistakenly thought "Minneapolis", whereas Chanhassen is actually about 20 miles away.

And a clarification of my earlier post:

Chanhassen is SPLIT between Carver County (which provides the local police) and Hennepin County.

In the part of Chanhassen that's in Hennepin County, it's still the Carver County sheriff because they're operating under a city contract.

Another illustration of the balkanization of local governments, and an explanation as to why Boss Hogg always took his frustration out on those Dukes.
PX Eliezer1

PX Eliezer1 to tbrummell2

Premium Member

to tbrummell2
said by tbrummell2:

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/En ··· ed_9-1-1

Scroll down to Wireless.

Not sure of which specific point you were bringing up.
SCADAGeo
Premium Member
join:2012-11-08
N California

1 recommendation

SCADAGeo to 8744675

Premium Member

to 8744675
said by 8744675:

Even though you can pinpoint the location of a cellphone with accuracy down to a feet using it's GPS using a Find My Phone app, the GPS coordinates don't get passed to 911 during a call. They are still attempting to locate callers using triangulation between cell towers.

This is another part of the challenge - not everyone has a smartphone, nor a cellphone with GPS capabilities.

Triangulation must be used for this scenario.

I recall many years ago, that while Verizon was forcing its subscribers to purchase cellphones with GPS capabilities, T-Mobile upgraded their equipment at the tower (improved clock accuracy) to meet FCC regulations.

Napsterbater
Meh
MVM
join:2002-12-28
Milledgeville, GA
(Software) OPNsense
Ubiquiti UniFi UAP-AC-PRO

2 recommendations

Napsterbater

MVM

said by SCADAGeo:

This is another part of the challenge - not everyone has a smartphone, nor a cellphone with GPS capabilities.

There are VERY few phone that don't have GPS in them anymore, even flip phone that cant use the GPS for directions have GPS for e911, and this was true in 2006.

cb14
join:2013-02-04
Miami Beach, FL

1 recommendation

cb14

Member

said by Napsterbater:

said by SCADAGeo:

This is another part of the challenge - not everyone has a smartphone, nor a cellphone with GPS capabilities.

There are VERY few phone that don't have GPS in them anymore, even flip phone that cant use the GPS for directions have GPS for e911, and this was true in 2006.

Maybe so, but many people, like myself, have the function disabled for good reasons and in an emergency situation you do not have time to start messing with your phone.

josephf
join:2009-04-26

6 recommendations

josephf

Member

Disabling the GPS does not disable it for E911. It cannot be disabled for 911.

Napsterbater
Meh
MVM
join:2002-12-28
Milledgeville, GA
(Software) OPNsense
Ubiquiti UniFi UAP-AC-PRO

2 recommendations

Napsterbater to cb14

MVM

to cb14
said by cb14:

Maybe so, but many people, like myself, have the function disabled for good reasons and in an emergency situation you do not have time to start messing with your phone.

You CANNOT disable the GPS for e911, its will ALWAYS re-activate.

bobjohnson
Premium Member
join:2007-02-03
Spartanburg, SC

1 recommendation

bobjohnson to Mango

Premium Member

to Mango
said by Mango:

Indeed a GPS is very useful. I've thankfully never needed to call 911 from the road but did call a tow truck once. My GPS has a 'where am I' feature that you can just read off to any dispatcher. It says something like "Southbound Highway 99, 3.5 km south of the Queen's Overpass, 0.25 km before exit 264 to Ferries."

I know how to navigate the area, but there is no way I could have been that specific. The tow was there in no time.

This could definitely make a case for your phone showing the address or coordinates on the dialer when you call 911. Most of the time someone that is calling 911 is frantic and generally is not able to / doesn't know where they are. It wouldn't be hard to code that into a dialer app.
DaveSin
join:2009-07-17

DaveSin to PX Eliezer1

Member

to PX Eliezer1
In the case of a 15-story high rise building in New York City, how does the XY coordinates discern 15 units stack on top of each other? Or am I oversimplifying this?

josephf
join:2009-04-26

1 recommendation

josephf

Member

There is technology that can pinpoint the floor, but the cellular industry successfully petitioned the FCC to delay the date it is required to be implemented on US mobile networks.