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New England
reply to Wildcatboy

Re: Forum rules, reminder, changes, updates, ...

said by Wildcatboy:

[snip].... this forum has somehow degenerated. Partly due to the fact that we were trying to test a gentler and more forgiving approach to moderation to see how it works and how far can people go in self moderating.

Well, that approach has to a certain degree failed in my view....[/snip]
Thank you, sir. To me, a very timely post.

Several months ago, I found this forum and received unbelievable help and advice in helping me 'secure' my pc.

Lately, I've been reluctant to even post a question or reply due to the (and I exaggerate):
'Must we go thru this again? We covered that 2 months ago. Why are you bothering us, again, with this crap?'; attitude.
(Boy, that'll slow ya down).

In the last couple of months, this forum seems like a somewhat 'advanced security' forum. If you're not a 'professional' then stop wasting our time.

But, as you said, it's your forum.
You can set it at any level of support that you like.

Just an observation, from someone that's definitely not a guru.

4 Ever Young
Scottsdale, AZ
·Cox HSI
reply to Wildcatboy

I hear you loud and clear, WCB. I also know that I am probably one of the worst offenders in that I take every chance that I can to throw in a bit of humor, even when it comes to security. I will attempt to curb my normal, impish ways and respect your wishes as the Mod of this forum. Please do me a favor though and realize that no matter how serious a subject may be, humor is a necessary part of life...even here.
JKKAge is a very high price to pay for my maturity. If I can't stay young, I can at least stay immature!

Huntington, WV
reply to Wildcatboy

The best post I have read in a long time, Wildcatboy, you are simply the man!!!!!!!!!

Best Regards
TrojanHunter Stands For Privacy!!!!!!!

Pine Brook, NJ
reply to Wildcatboy

WTG!........takem to the woodshed!


Hephzibah, GA
reply to Wildcatboy


Thanks Ed

Lurk, Lurk, Lurk,They Call Me The Lurker

Washington, MO
reply to Wildcatboy

From one of the lurkers;
I post very few posts in this forum, because I'm in learning mode. I learn a lot about privacy and security in this forum and have little to no new info to post. I do want to thank WCB and all the others who frequently post very good information here, and hope this forum keeps is same lofty standards.
Using ET photons (Solar Power) to search for ET.

I Am The Man Who Was Not There.
Reston, VA

1 recommendation

reply to Name Game


I am assuming he left it open deliberately and that he was, in effect, inviting (but not explicitly soliciting) feedback and comments. Sort of an exercise in taking the pulse, as it were.
Regards, Joseph V. Morris

Name Game
Grand Rapids, MI

reply to Wildcatboy

JV, I too find it interesting that this thread was left open for discussion...I really did not see it that way..I would have lock it.I am sure WCB thought long and hard to put it together.

PS...Love you guys, all of ya.

[text was edited by author 2002-09-10 10:49:27]

I Am The Man Who Was Not There.
Reston, VA

1 recommendation

reply to Wildcatboy


I suspect that, to some extent, we have become victims of our own success. Also, we've been experiencing a lot of "good weather".

With regards to the first point, we have done such a good job that many people now come here or get referred here from other forums and newsgroups. (Well, I'm certainly reading a lot of new names.) People come with the baggage of their prior experiences. At least I know I did. Indeed, I shall never forget my first post (a reply in an ongoing thread) here! I remember being told firmly but politely that "That's not the way we do things here." (And, of course, the more I read, the more I realized that was true.) But that wasn't my initial reaction. At first, I thought "Oh, yeah, right ... , kinder, gentler world ... sure!") Let's try the old switcheroo: "Sorry guys, I was having a bad hair day, my wife just left me, and the dog ate my homework". Okay, now let's see how kind and gentle the place is. And, to my utter astonishment, the responses came back: "No big deal, anyone can have a bad day. Welcome aboard. And incidentally, you did have an interesting point in your initial reply, but ...." And, so I learned, it really was a kinder, gentler world here at DSLR.

And I remember the many early times I tried to strike up the odd one-on-one social conversation within a thread (which mostly was just ignored). Indeed, when I first came here, I didn't even know that there were other forums here, I hadn't read the posting rules, and what the heck is IM anyway?

Now, with regards to the second point in my initial paragraph. We have, in all honesty, had a rather good summer -- very little in the way of catastrophic happenings. In many instances, I think the 'givers' come in, walk around, don't see any real crises. Some check a few threads because of who else has posted in them; maybe drop a witticism to let you know they're still hanging around and then head off on their merry way. Others just look, mostly don't see anything deserving of a response and just go back to doing what(ever) they do in the real world. So, yes, we are seeing a bit of social chitchat. We're seeing more socializing, witticisms, jokes, and cartoons than normal -- well, that's what happens when things get slow around the office, also.

But, if you look at the serious, substantive threads, I think you'll have to agree that all this gets dropped pretty quickly and people get back to business when this becomes critical.

Indeed, I suspect some of us are getting a bit uneasy these days. We keep thinking there's something new out there; we just haven't managed to localize it -- yet. So sometimes we (and I include myself in this) go off on wild goose chases and others can't help but make some sort of humorous comment about it.

Still, your post is a good reminder and it comes at a good time. No point in waiting until the whole place turns into a koffee klatch (or whatever that thing is).

Regards, Joseph V. Morris

Space...The Final Frontier
Urbandale, IA

1 recommendation

reply to Wildcatboy

There's only one statement that I disagree with:

**In other words, stay on topic unless the original poster requests further information.**

In my experience, sometimes I come to DSLR with the intentions of looking at one product or another, and am informed by people in the thread I post to that the product is not, in fact, what I need. I personally find that a beneficial service, which has in the past saved me not only time, but money as well. I simply don't know to request further information...well, because I don't. If it's something I need to ask for help about, I'm probably going off the rec of a friend, and a more experienced person's opinion is always valued. I do believe that when people post they should *address* what the user asked a question about, but I guess I don't see a problem with throwing one's own opinion (as long as it is an *informed* one) onto the pile as well. Perhaps I'm rare in that I've benefited from such things. In which case I won't say another word on the subject...

Quo Vadimus

Name Game
Grand Rapids, MI

1 recommendation

reply to Wildcatboy

It will be a pleasure to get back to helping people who really want it.

reply to Wildcatboy

I think what you layed out WCB is fair and reasonable.

Thank you!

Go Pack!

Randy Bell
Santa Clara, CA
reply to Wildcatboy

I support WCB wholeheartedly, and I think he's doing a swell job. His job isn't easy, since this is such a large forum with such wide diversity of opinion...but there's room for everyone here, LOL.

I too appreciate WCB's leadership and wish to abide by the rules if possible. I mean, I may slip up from time to time, but it is my intention to be a rule-keeper. :)

Time Is Running Out
reply to Wildcatboy

Thanks for being there Wildcatboy, and I have been kind of staying out of the forum for some of the reasons you have talked about. I appreciate your direction and will do my best to conform to your updated rules. Again, Thanks for taking the time to moderate this forum, it is a better forum for it. This ain't butt kissing, this is really how I feel, even though your wrong about some of your opinions on products I support.
Jamming *Team Z Member*

Toronto, ON

14 recommendations

I think a lot of you old timers would agree that this forum has somehow degenerated. Partly due to the fact that we were trying to test a gentler and more forgiving approach to moderation to see how it works and how far can people go in self moderating.

Well, that approach has to a certain degree failed in my view. I'm a true believer in self moderation but one that is given a constant direction by moderators as what's expected from the members.

You see, self moderation is great so long as the people who are doing it, share the same expectations as the host of the forum and the site as how the forum should look like. If they don't, they'll still self moderate but in a forum that will no longer look like anything it was originally intended to look like. A Newsgroup is self moderated too in a sense that if you don't flame you can't survive. Well, my idea of this forum is that you shouldn't be able to survive if you flame.

I think I speak for the vast majority of you when I say that I'd like this forum to be the first stop for anyone who needs to see intelligent security related discussions. The first place you go when you need help and guidance without having to go through a bunch of irrelevant material. A place you can count on to be welcoming and right to the point. Most importantly a place that's mature enough to impress other Security experts (known or unknown) enough to feel welcome to join this crowd and make it a better place.

As I have mentioned this before to a few, there are three kinds of Security forums out there on the Internet.

  • A) Script kiddy forums where majority of you home users will find nothing of use there and you don't have the slightest chance to find help.

  • B) Professional Forums that are frequented by known and unknown Security experts having mature discussions and

  • C) Forums that are trying hard to be professional and failing miserably.

I refuse to allow this forum to fall into the A and C category and I don't think any of you want that either. Unfortunately, by the way things are going, we are certainly in danger of falling into the C category .

So here's some guidelines as how this forum should and will certainly look like from now on:

  • This is the Security forum. Security discussions, privacy discussions, Technical security issues,... have a place here.

  • Chit chats, posting cartoons, jokes, one on one discussions, funny articles, Script kiddy talks, bragging about your hacking adventures... DO NOT.

  • If a thread sparks a different question in your mind that isn't 100% related to the main topic, start a new thread and ask. Off topic remarks will not be tolerated no matter how intelligent they may sound. If your post starts with "This may be a bit OT but...", you can bet you'll be hearing from me.

  • Any attempt to start a flame war, any trolling to get others to start a flame war no matter how subtle, any kind of disrespect to other members no matter how minor, any attempt to change the subject and direction of the thread to what it's not originally intended (especially if the new direction is not Security related) will be dealt with harshly. No warnings. This forum is not here for your amusement.

  • Posts like, I love this product or I hate that product offer no value to this forum and mostly end up in flame wars. If you are introducing a new product, that's fine, otherwise avoid those posts. This forum is here to help you solve your problems or inform others of vulnerabilities. How you feel about a product does not warrant a thread.

  • Duplicate threads are frowned upon. Do your research before posting. If you have done your research and still don't have the answer, let us know that and help avoid people quoting old threads back at you. Let us know exactly what it is that you haven't found in those old threads and what exactly you are looking for.

  • You don't have to post in every thread you see. If you can't be helpful, stay out and let others help.

  • Do not post lengthy cut and paste articles in the middle of a thread. Post a link and tell people what exactly they can expect when they click on it. If people are interested in your answer, trust me, they'll click on it. Don't leave a link without telling people what it is. If they remotely need to be warned about a link you post, warn them in advance.

  • If someone asks about Sygate, tell them about Sygate. ZA can have its own thread. If people have specific questions about TDS, don't tell them how great your TH is. If people ask how they can configure their firewall don't tell them to go and buy a router and most certainly don't tell them that in your opinion the best firewall is ... They don't care about what your opinion is. They have already told you what they are looking for. In other words, stay on topic unless the original poster requests further information.

  • If you don't like a subject, if a poster or a subject gets on your nerve, stay out. Don't trash the thread and don't attempt to act as the moderator of this forum. There's only one. Bring it to my attention if necessary and I will decide.

Don't forget, this is not a social club. DSLR as a whole might be a big family for a lot of us, but this particular forum is supposed to be a professional association. Act professionally in this forum and do your socializing in our social forums. It's fine and even encouraged to be friends with your colleagues but once the business is in session, talk business.

My new policy which thankfully to all of you will only affect less than 1% of you:

  • If editing a very short unsuitable remark out of an otherwise great lengthy post takes more time that I'm willing to spend, I'll hit delete. Choose your words wisely.

  • If I have to delete your posts more than a few times a month, I'll make sure you won't post in this forum at all.

  • IF your post is deleted, don't post publicly about it or add a subtle hint to it in your next post, because I will have to delete that as well. If you want to know what happens if I have to delete your posts more than a few times, see above.

  • Polite IMs about why your post was deleted may be answered, otherwise, don't bother. I get enough of those unprofessional IMs and I'm not even getting paid.

If you want to see this forum to get back to what it was originally intended, help me by bringing unsuitable posts to my attention. Hit that Hey Mod link as often as you find necessary. You may not see an immediate response but I guarantee you that I see every single one and I guarantee that you'll get a response from me via IM even if it's the next day.

Make sure you click on the posting rules link on top of the forum and read it. Those rules are still in effect. Some of you may have not read them at all and some may have forgotten it altogether.

Please help make this forum a professional one. You will all benefit as a result. If you expect professional security people to count on this forum enough to come over and help or answer your questions, you need to act professionally first and you need to prove to them that this forum is worthy of their time.

In the end I'd like to thank most of you who have done your parts already and have made this forum a great place as is. We can be better and we will. Have patience and keep up the good work.

You can catch the Devil, but you can't hold him long.