NOTE! SBC/Yahoo DSL-no 'free' personal web space - AT&T West

Author	All Replies
Matthew Premium,VIP join:2001-08-03 Emmett, ID	reply to Ericthorn Re: NOTE! SBC/Yahoo DSL-no 'free' personal web space Yes, it would be nice to see at least one person who could take up some of the ISP issues that arise here, "Officially". People who understand the relationship between ASI and ISP's may understand my current role and it's limitation on those particular issues... -- It truly is the lowest level where we ALL make the difference.
	to forum · permalink · 2002-10-17 03:26:56 ·
ksuki join:1999-10-28 Pomona, CA	reply to pokesph »dialup.pacbell.net/CustomerSvc/d···ndc.html Paragraph 11G. "Additional Features (e.g. Newsgroups, Personal Web Page, Email, etc.) may be provided in addition to the Service". The 'Service' referred to describes things that relate to only connectivity. The terms 'additional features' and 'in addition to' speak for themselves - the customer is paying for 'the service'; not the 'in addition to'. It says 'may be provided', not 'will be provided'. The SBC/Yahoo ToS doesn't even mention Personal Web Pages being included. Now, as far as the comparison, I wasn't aware that you were the provider, but never the less, I would expect a hosting service to be even more understanding of a customers needs/wishes then an access provider for whom web pages are just thrown in to sweeten the deal. I and most all of my competitors don't prohibit URL forwarding in either direction nor do we prohibit images containing nudity. Those are conditions you have every right to impose, just like SBC/Yahoo has the right to impose conditions and limitations on their services, whether they are value added or the primary reason for someone purchasing that service. Frankly, I don't understand why a professional hosting service would prohibit a customer from forwarding a URL. In fact, I encourage it and even offer domain forwarding as a FREE service to my customers because it cuts down on my bandwidth usage and I see no harm in doing that (URL or domain forwarding). I also have no prohibition against hosting images containing nudity because it isn't necessarily illegal. My policy towards image hosting is very simple and much like that of the majority of hosting services I'm aware of - all of whom I consider to be professional - and that is, I won't knowingly host illegal content. Evidently, your opinion of what should be included and what should be excluded is different from that of others, which is your right to express and to impose on your customers, just as it is my (and SBC/Yahoo's) right to have policies and restrictions that may differ from your values. As far as having no other viable provider for hosting personal pages - hog wash. If SBC/Yahoo disappeared from the DSL business today, there would still be 'viable providers' available. The bottom line is, people who sign up for SBC/Yahoo DSL are signing up primarily for the DSL connectivity, not personal web pages. To put it bluntly (I can say it because I'm not an SBC/Yahoo employee or rep), the personal web page feature is there on a take it or leave it basis. If it suits someones needs, they take it; if it doesn't or they don't need it, they leave it. Ken
	to forum · permalink · 2002-10-17 04:17:21 ·
MHOyet2B join:2000-09-23 Eureka, CA	reply to pokesph From what I've seen businesses have always used the word 'free'...uh...freely! There are innumerable 'free software' programs that are free...until thirty days or less have passed. Because they are not free forever does not prevent the companies from promoting them as 'free'. The same wording is used in other ways, as in 'free', IF you BUY something else. That type of 'white lie' has been going on at least as long as Madison Avenue has been paved. The examples are all but endless. Whether or not you like the popup ads, as far as I can tell, the webspace in itself is still free - you pay no extra money for it. You may want to argue about not being properly informed of what you have to put up with to obtain your 'free' webspace, but that I think, is technically a separate matter. (I said it before and I'll repeat it here: we are not a country 'under the rule of law' but a country 'under the rule of lawyers.') BTW, a google search on "free -freedom" yields 6,870,000 hits. Those aren't all merchandise-related hits, but I'm sure many of them offer something for 'free' that in the word's strictest sense, is not TOTALLY free at all. (A favorite oxymoron of mine: 'free market'. ) I'm not really not on your side about this Pokesph, but I think SBC alone cannot be singled out while a rampant promotional abuse of the word 'free' continues in general. Beyond that, it ain't a nice world. Hundreds of millions of kids don't even have pencils and paper to learn with. It's entirely possible that some of their parents worked for slave wages to help keep the computer equipment we here enjoy cheaply! FWIW, Fred
	to forum · permalink · 2002-10-17 04:39:25 ·
ksuki join:1999-10-28 Pomona, CA	reply to Matthew said by Matthew: Yes, it would be nice to see at least one person who could take up some of the ISP issues that arise here, "Officially". People who understand the relationship between ASI and ISP's may understand my current role and it's limitation on those particular issues... Don't worry - the minute I see someone busting your chops for things you or your division of SBC has no control over, I got your (and ADSLGuys) back. Gemsnake and others with PBI along with the techs from the telco side are in somewhat the same position - they're techs and don't make policy. They're probably agreeing with some, if not all, of the criticisms about policy and pricing - got your backs too. On the other hand, I've spent enough time on the management side of things (but not with SBC) that, even though I may disagree with their decisions, I do recognize that it's a tough, if not impossible, task to please all of the people all of the time. I get a chuckle when people say, "Greed and they're doing it to increase profits.". Those people have to recognize that SBC is a 'for profit' operation and yes, they're out there to make a buck, just like the rest of us who go to work - they and we don't do it just to break even or for the warm fuzzies. And most of us will try to get maximum return with minimal effort and expense - if SBC is doing the same, who am I to judge? For those who go to work or run businesses for the pure pleasure of working, sacrificing everything to do only things for the good of all with no motive for personal gain, I salute you - I'm not as perfect as you are so please don't judge me too harshly. Ken
	to forum · permalink · 2002-10-17 05:21:25 ·

Matthew Premium,VIP join:2001-08-03 Emmett, ID	Thank You Ken, I appreciate that. I was not just referring to the policy side, but that of ASI's responsibility to treat all of it's customers (The ISP resellers, too) with a certain level of service as well. I try to help all of my customers end users (the subscriber) with their problems, but some things are not an issue with the pipeline, but rather with the content that that pipeline provides. I handle the pipeline, and try to get the people who work with the content involved here, as well. Without the ISP being involved, I have to spend a lot of time walking on egg shells, hoping that they don't break. (I am not complaining, just trying to point out that fact). -- It truly is the lowest level where we ALL make the difference.
	to forum · permalink · 2002-10-17 05:35:09 ·
ksuki join:1999-10-28 Pomona, CA	That's right - you do have to walk a tight rope when it comes to what you can and can't say during your trouble shooting and problem resolution efforts. A lot depends upon how effectively the affected ISP reseller interacts with you folks at ASI during the trouble shooting process ... I imagine that some are harder to work with (if at all) then others and you wish you could vent about the hard to work with ones (but can't) .... OK, now everyone knows - don't flame toaster2k or adslguy too quickly because it might be the ISP that's holding things up or is at fault and he isn't always able to tell it like it really is . Did I get it right this time? Ken
	to forum · permalink · 2002-10-17 05:58:37 ·
CCCMTech Premium,VIP,MVM join:2002-05-17 Baxter, KY	What most people don't see or know is the fact of how many departments of an ISP there are besides ISP and ASI. Toaster2k and ADSL Guy do a great job here handling speed and sync issues, that's their job and their abilities. Other problems such as IP issues, latency beyond the CO, rback issues, email, newsgroups, etc. are my and all other ISP techs' here job. I do not currently have a lot of pull in the company, but I do have access to what I need and a few contacts on here to help me out. I do maintenance and Tier 1 support, I have the ability to create trouble tickets while Ken and Matt do not, yet. Beyond tech support there are several depts. Billing, EPC, interconnect, and the list goes on. Each with their own job description of what they can and cannot do. I wish we, the techs on here, could take care of all issues but in order to get some issues resolved we have to talk to another dept. or 2 (more sometimes). All of us on here try to help the best we can, sometimes it just takes a while because of the computer systems and the way they work or it's another dept. that does that job, and we have to contact them. -- "Great things come to those who wait" - ME(not originally but I do say it)
	to forum · permalink · 2002-10-17 09:58:24 ·
pokesph It Is Almost Fast Premium join:2001-06-25 Sacramento, CA kudos:1	reply to ksuki said by ksuki: ... Frankly, I don't understand why a professional hosting service would prohibit a customer from forwarding a URL. In fact, I encourage it and even offer domain forwarding as a FREE service to my customers because it cuts down on my bandwidth usage and I see no harm in doing that (URL or domain forwarding)... Ken These TOS were designed to a specific server type that had limited domain name accounts avail (plesk 200 user lic.) so was imposed to allow maximum website hosting.. as for PWP, if you (PacBell/SBC), as an ISP, are gonna offer a Value Added service and advertise it as free, it should be just that. NOT what Joe surfer can get from Yahoo/Geocities themselves.. -- Webmaster Steve - - - - - - - - - - - - »ppnhost.com »sphenterprizes.com »pokemonpalace.net
	to forum · permalink · 2002-10-17 12:55:14 ·
ksuki join:1999-10-28 Pomona, CA	said by pokesph: said by ksuki: ... Frankly, I don't understand why a professional hosting service would prohibit a customer from forwarding a URL. In fact, I encourage it and even offer domain forwarding as a FREE service to my customers because it cuts down on my bandwidth usage and I see no harm in doing that (URL or domain forwarding)... These TOS were designed to a specific server type that had limited domain name accounts avail (plesk 200 user lic.) so was imposed to allow maximum website hosting.. as for PWP, if you (PacBell/SBC), as an ISP, are gonna offer a Value Added service and advertise it as free, it should be just that. NOT what Joe surfer can get from Yahoo/Geocities themselves.. First, other then being a customer, I'm not affiliated with PBI/SBC/Yahoo - let's get that out of the way. Next, URL forwarding can be done using a simple META REFRESH tag or by using one or more of a number of other redirect methods built in to web servers (I can name 3 with Apache) with no domain name accounts involved. Anyway, I find it perfectly understandable for a web hosting service to impose a restriction (even though it's a restriction other hosting services don't impose) because lifting that restriction might require going to a more expensive license and having to charge the customer to make up for the associated cost that was incurred due to a decision they (the provider) made. But, I don't understand how an access provider tossing in web pages as a bonus for using their connectivity is somehow held to a different standard and considered wrong or 'unprofessional' if they apply a restriction that would otherwise require them having to charge their customers in order to compensate the lifting of their restriction. SBC chose to use what appears to be the same service that is being given away elsewhere for their users free web pages offering and that's their decision to live with - I say 'appears to be' because I don't know if it's on the same servers and connecting circuits that Yahoo/Geocities uses. Bottom line, it's free (aka 'at no additional charge') to their customers and it's included with their account. Maybe less features/more restrictions, which may be intolerable to some customers, then what others offer but IMO, it's still as represented. Ken
	to forum · permalink · 2002-10-17 15:31:43 ·
KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK Reviews: ·AT&T DSL Service	reply to shaka This sucks, sucks, SUCKS! Do you post in forums? Do you use ebay? Well, Geoshitties crap is USELESS to you... you can't even host pictures for your auctions, or pictures for forums, including Avatars, etc etc You'll end up having to go out and pay good money for a "real" hosting site..... What a crock! -- "When the day comes that anyone can bend our country’s laws and lawmakers to serve selfish, competitive ends, that day democratic government dies" -- Preston Tucker, 1948 (Yep, it's dead.)
	to forum · permalink · 2002-10-17 18:52:27 ·
KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK Reviews: ·AT&T DSL Service	reply to ksuki said by ksuki: The bottom line is, people who sign up for SBC/Yahoo DSL are signing up primarily for the DSL connectivity, Ken WRONG. Talk about missing the customer's wants and needs. They are not signing up for "DSL Connectivity" what they are signing up for is "High speed Internet Access". To almost everyone, "Internet Access" means not just a "connection" but the full range of ISP services.... In Fact, the TOS practically demands it, because technically it's a violation of service to run your own servers on the connection, so, by very nature, the ISP services are expected by the customers. Start cutting off the basic services, and people will want to get their High Speed Internet access somewhere else... Unfortunately as we all know many people don't have much choice in the matter. Some can choose alternatives, but some cannot, and are stuck with whatever SBC feels they deserve, and apparently, SBC has decided that they don't deserve services such as webspace that they can actually USE ON THE INTERNET. -- "When the day comes that anyone can bend our country’s laws and lawmakers to serve selfish, competitive ends, that day democratic government dies" -- Preston Tucker, 1948 (Yep, it's dead.)
	to forum · permalink · 2002-10-17 19:00:30 ·
ksuki join:1999-10-28 Pomona, CA	Like I've said, I'm a customer as much as anyone else in this thread and in the market place for services. I won't dictate to other customers or providers what they must or must not offer or accept things based on my values - I recognize that their values, needs and budget might differ from mine and I accept their decisions and/or reasoning, even if I disagree. I also expect the same consideration in return. If what SBC offers doesn't fit your needs, definition of internet access or your budget, I encourage you and anyone else who feels that strongly to vote with your wallet - find the provider that does meet your requirements. In PacBell territory, there are a large number of competing DSL resellers and technologies to chose from. If that perfect provider you're looking for doesn't exist in your area, then there's either a reason or you've found a golden opportunity to fill that void. Ken
	to forum · permalink · 2002-10-17 20:02:47 ·
shaka Swimming With Sharks Premium join:2000-12-13 AtTheBeach	reply to KrK said by KrK: This sucks, sucks, SUCKS! Do you post in forums? Do you use ebay? Well, Geoshitties crap is USELESS to you... you can't even host pictures for your auctions, or pictures for forums, including Avatars, etc etc You'll end up having to go out and pay good money for a "real" hosting site..... What a crock! LMFAO!!! I agree with you 100% that GeoShitties is crap. Even the premium GeoShitties. You can do what I do and that is host your own websites on your DSL line;):). Just buy a domain and setup a PC to host and you are all good to go.:) -- *What!!!What!!!!What!!! What the hell do you want?!?!?! Leave my ass alone!!!:):):)*
	to forum · permalink · 2002-10-17 20:58:49 ·
KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK	That's an option. It's also a violation of the TOS. Do you have a static IP?
	to forum · permalink · 2002-10-17 21:03:28 ·
shaka Swimming With Sharks Premium join:2000-12-13 AtTheBeach	Oh yes ToS, make sure you read the ToS cause Y! knows how to get your money;). I am not with SBC/PacBell/Yahoo!. I am with Mindspring/Covad. I do not have a static IP, I have a dynamic IP. I use zoneedit and a couple other programs to setup my DNS and IP to keep it "nsync" if you know what I mean. It is relatively easy. Before I worked at Yahoo! I have never read any ToS or agreement, now that I know how a company like Yahoo! works I read the ToS of anything I purchase. I feel bad for customers who get screwed because our backup at Y! is "it states it in the ToS." So as a friend to all of you make sure you read the ToS before you get yourself into a mess of crap. If you want any Yahoo! (not SBC) related questions let me know and I will try(LOL:D) to answer them. -- *What!!!What!!!!What!!! What the hell do you want?!?!?! Leave my ass alone!!!:):):)*
	to forum · permalink · 2002-10-17 21:11:06 ·

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Re: NOTE! SBC/Yahoo DSL-no 'free' personal web space