Re: Well deyamn... in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r4955989 en Mon, 30 Nov 2009 20:44:59 EDT Mon, 30 Nov 2009 20:44:59 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5010368 lagoleer :
said by dsmey:
Frankly, I think you guys are being dense. Would you walk out of Tower records with a stack of 250 CDs? No, that would be stupid -- you would buy some, listen to them, and then buy some more. Obviously, this is what EMusic is asking you to do.


First of all, yes, the TOS do not specifically put caps on downloads, and their advertising does not state a limit. In actuality, they specifically state the unlimited nature of the service. We can all see and agree to that. This means a response of, "Well, they didn't say.....blah blah blah" is not needed.

Secondly, I agree. There is a segment of users obviously evoking their, "Affirmative Action," clause here and going slap happy with the service for perceived deserved reparations for years of expensive music (never mind the fact that it was always about choice. If you think it is too expensive, then simply do NOT buy it. No one forced you to buy the music. Obviously if everyone stopped buying music due to pricing structures, the companies would either have to change their pricing strategy/package deals or go out of business. Of course intangibly electronic media makes stealing that much easier for those who feel stealing is an ok reaction to what they deem unreasonable pricing). There is also that segment that is just plain greedy. Those are the types that see a plate in a store that says, "need some cents? Pick them up!" They then go to the counter with a .89 cent soda, fish around in their pocket, find .13 cents, and take the required .76 cents from the dish and when someone slaps their wrist, they say, "hey, it didn't tell me how MUCH I could take! I've tossed pennies in various dishes over the years, so what's your problem?!?!" It is odd how common sense only seems to work FOR the supposed thinker. ;-P Would someone really go into a store and purchase 200 albums in 3 days? No, but when armed with the ability to effective get music for a steal, their discriminating tastes suddenly aren't as discriminating, and they go hog wild downloading everything that even looks REMOTELY interesting. In the real, physical world, they would probably pass on these CDs because of content, cost, or both. But because it is basically a, "all you can eat," they are eating themselves sick, even when the food no longer tastes that good. Speaking of which, there are numerous cases of people being banned from these establishments because they eat well above what common sense and what an average person would deem, "all you can eat." I suppose some of these users are the same ones that cry wolf when an item online or in a retail store is accidentally marked, "$10" instead of, "$1000," and they expect to get it for that price when common sense should clearly tell them it is erroneously priced. And yet again, I am reminded of the users that took 24hr ISP service to heart years ago and kept their dial-up connections connected 24/7, then flipped out when the ISPs started imposing limits and disconnecting them. Even when idle, these users would run programs that would keep some type of activity running to keep themselves connected.

said by dsmey:
Otherwise, you are claiming it is fair to pay them, let's say, $45 (for the 3-month deal) and take hundreds of CDs (or thousands of retail dollars) worth of music. Figure it at about $.50 a disk in mechanical repro royalties (which is around what EMusic claims they pay) and then figure out how much you are looting from them.


Exactly. What is good for the goose is rarely good for the gander. Users whine and moan about the package deal nature of expensive CDs, but when given the chance to go slap happy, they do. I am sure none of these users stopped and said, 'wait, if I download 200 albums at ~15 songs per album, then that is 3000 songs at $10. That's .0034 per song. Wow, is the company taking a loss? What about the artists? How much are they paying in royalties? Bandwidth? Infrastructure costs?' Of course not. It is simply a free for all. No, they do not. Instead they think, 'big, bad, evil company makes more than enough $$$.'

said by dsmey:

Granted, they need to change their policy, but I can see why they decided to cut off all of you jerks first.


What other recourse do they have? They obviously will have to implement a new set of rules to counter-act greedy users lacking in common sense and a sense of decency. Actions like this really disgust me. Like adults that stumble upon a candy dish, and if it doesn't say, "1 per customer, please," they snatch handfuls of the candy then look around stupidly when the management looks at them in a not so friendly way or they simply don't care.
--
Real computer users use Unix. Real mobile warriors use Tadpole-RDI equipment. Knowing more about me than is desired: »home.earthlink.net/~electrosoft/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5010368 Thu, 14 Nov 2002 00:02:36 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5004823 Drowbe : I've been an eMusic user for quite some time now -- I am not sure why I have yet to get the dreaded message, but I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of albums. Here's why...

First and foremost, they said I could. Not going to argue this point beyond the fact that they never said "Unlimited downloads...as long as it is in the *spirit* of what we intended".

The main reason that I have downloaded so much music is that I can zip through the "What's New" list and tag anything remotely interesting sounding for download (the whole album), go to bed, wake up the next day and have a listen...if I don't like what I hear, boink! I delete it. The 30 second samples don't do it for me -- that is enough time to hear the hooks, but not get a feel for the album as a whole.

Comparing this site to a music store is absurd...unless the music store lets you take home as many cd's as you want for 10 dollars a month. I don't know about you, but I'd cancel my eMusic account and switch to that plan in a heart-beat. If they let you stream the songs, I am guessing that users might not bother grabbing every album -- you could have a listen and see if you really want it taking up drive space.

CD's sound great...128kbps sound...okay...sometimes. I am not sure who rips the cd's at emusic, but often they sound horrible (lots of phase problems). If I really like the album, I buy the CD.

I work from home. I pay for the service. I listen to the music I download...eventually. I don't post it to peer-to-peer sites. As far as I can tell, I am a-okay despite the number of downloads.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5004823 Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:06:50 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4995540 some guy$ : it says in the TOS that they can if they want to]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4995540 Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:27:55 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4994845 anon : "but there are new customers who got booted after 4 albums and charged the full year's rate--do you think 4 low quality cd rips are worth 120 bucks?"

This claim is totally false. (I mean, really, what's WRONG with you?) First of all, from all real-life accounts that I've read, when you get booted they stop charging you. (Some people were apparently charged for the next month but then refunded. I mean, what, you think they would keep charging you for a "subscription" that they canceled?) So, if you were booted in the first month, you'd have paid $10 bucks, and that's it.

And I'd bet my mammy's maxipad that nobody was booted for downloading 4 albums. That's just ridiculous. The only people I've seen who actually estimated what they were downloading admit to getting HUNDREDS of albums.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4994845 Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:27:35 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4984007 Aramis604 : hmm... a single player can play for up to 1,440 minutes in a day. **ponders** I have 3 PC, two stereos, one MP3 player, three cars with CD players, and two DvD players that can play CDA format. **ponders**

Now considering that I'm not playing the same tracks on different players, or if I am, I've purchased multiple copies of the song, I can play up to 15,840 minutes of music in a day..... As I've asked before, who's to say how much music I can listen to in a day? Maybe I like to listen to 11 different songs all at the same time.

ok, so I went off of the deep end a bit, but seriously, it isn't their place to determine what I can use in a day/month/etc. If I've paid for what I have according to the TOS, where do they have any ground to stand on? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4984007 Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:58:55 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4980234 morph : true, true, but they could easily just put a limit on the speed of the servers to individual connections... set it to 5 k/s , same as dial-up]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4980234 Mon, 11 Nov 2002 07:03:19 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4975706 BIGHUSKER : Wow, that's clever. You disagree with what I say, so you turn it around and call me a woman beater and make me out to look like an idiot. I can't beleive someone actually took the time to take that "kick the crap out of him" part seriously. I never meant it to be taken literally, and didn't think anyone would actually do so.

But my point still stands. I refuse to be disrepected by any company that I am a customer of if I'm not in violation of their terms of service. If you're the type of person that likes to get screwed by big business, then more power to you. I, OTOH, refuse to just lube up and bend over.
[text was edited by author 2002-11-10 20:12:33]
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4975706 Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:10:51 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4974324 some guy$ :
said by lurker93 See Profile:


And I don't feel too sorry for a bunch of losers who sit in
front of their monitor 20 hours a day in order to click
one new link every couple minutes!


actually they have a program (emusic downloader) that does it for you--line up 200 or so albums (yes albums) (takes about 10 minutes to line them up) then walk away--the program even names them to your specifications and puts them in album/artist folders--in fact it's too convenient, because that's where all their troubles began (when they introduced it)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4974324 Sun, 10 Nov 2002 15:12:57 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4972641 lurker93 :
said by dsmey:
Oh, I understand now. Clearly all you guys have been really badly ripped off. You ONLY got hundreds of albums for virtually nothing. I can see why you want to sue for your $10 back, since you were so badly deceived and abused.


Hehe, gotta agree with you ... finding myself this time on
"the other side" of the argument, than I'd usually be.

And I don't feel too sorry for a bunch of losers who sit in
front of their monitor 20 hours a day in order to click
one new link every couple minutes!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4972641 Sun, 10 Nov 2002 11:02:44 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4972600 lurker93 :
said by some guy$ See Profile:
i'll save that for when i get booted--i'm going to queue up 200 more albums (discriminately of course) and see what the magic number is


I'll bet you that the magic number is when a daily moving
average starts exceeding 1440 minutes of music to listen to.

The spirit of the wording seems to indicate that actually
*listening* to what you download is the point of it all.

There are only so many seconds/minutes/hours in a day ...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4972600 Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:56:49 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4972579 lurker93 :
said by BIGHUSKER See Profile:
If I was paying $10 a month for a service and got talked to like that, I would cancel my account in a second.


Well, duh! That is what they want from the hogs.

You can double your userbase with no changes, if you only
lose the 5% who use half the resources.

Some people just don't understand not-so-subtle hints
and get booted. Check out closing time at the local bar...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4972579 Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:52:47 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4965536 some guy$ : well what did they expect? i'm not bitching because i got lots of stuff--but there are new customers who got booted after 4 albums and charged the full year's rate--do you think 4 low quality cd rips are worth 120 bucks?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4965536 Sat, 09 Nov 2002 13:51:02 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4965325 anon : Oh, I understand now. Clearly all you guys have been really badly ripped off. You ONLY got hundreds of albums for virtually nothing. I can see why you want to sue for your $10 back, since you were so badly deceived and abused.

What a terrible, terrible deal this EMusic thing turned out to be.

I mean really, the worst thing that happened is that they were rude about it. They aren't "threatening" anybody, they are basically just saying they don't want to play with you anymore. You get to walk away with armloads of stuff, and you don't even have to pay for a whole year (or 3 month) commitment.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4965325 Sat, 09 Nov 2002 13:21:53 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4964633 clamp : Who decides whether I can listen to 200 CDs a month or not? Why does eMusic has the right to tell me "well, please do not listen to CDs too much, 200 CDs are going to hurt you." Who cares, and why should eMusic care? They either remove the "unlimited" word or we will just won't join them and......hate to say, keep doing P2P.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4964633 Sat, 09 Nov 2002 11:43:23 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4962296 some guy$ : I paid for the 250 albums--thats the whole point

I don't give a rat's anterior cruciate ligament if they make money or artists make money or what have you--I paid for unlimited downloads, and that is what I'm going to get.

The tower records thing is completely off the wall, because I PAID for the 250 albums! tower records would put them in a bag and say "Thank you sir!"

"Otherwise, you are claiming it is fair to pay them, let's say, $45 (for the 3-month deal) and take hundreds of CDs (or thousands of retail dollars) worth of music. Figure it at about $.50 a disk in mechanical repro royalties (which is around what EMusic claims they pay) and then figure out how much you are looting from them."

THAT IS WHAT THEY OFFERED! they offered unlimited downloads--they didn't say 2 albums a week, or "hey go easy on us we have nt iis4.0 servers"

if they want limits, fine put them in writing, until then i'm grabbing anything i find even remotely interesting]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4962296 Sat, 09 Nov 2002 00:43:02 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4962054 Aramis604 : If Tower Records were to advertise something to the effect of

"For just $45 you can have all the CDs you want from our selection of over 200,000 CDs available."
(now, I realize this is never going to happen, but for the sake of argument, let's go with it.)

Yeah, I might very well walk out of there with a stack of 250 CDs. But the point here is that EMusic advertised "Unlimited for as little as $9.99mo." Now I don't claim to ever used their service, and I don't have access to the TOS. There might be something in the quote "fine print" limiting its use. But from the other posts I've read on this topic, I don’t think that is the case.

How can someone be accused of being greedy or overindulging by taking advantage of the service as it was sold to them? What it sounds like to me is that EMusic has had a larger demand for the product then they were prepared, or able to supply for, and now they are trying to back peddle a bit. If they need to change the TOS for their product, well, that's their prerogative. They do however (and I think legally) need to either,

1. Inform all their current customers of the change, and then implement it on a scheduled date.

Or
2. Grandfather all their current customers, and then change the TOS for all 'new' customers.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4962054 Sat, 09 Nov 2002 00:10:54 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4961840 anon : I believe you're missing the point. It's not an issue of if the downloaders were getting more than they were "entitled" to. It's that this company advertises, and explicitly promises, "unlimited" downloads, and then threatens- and terminates- member accounts for doing exactly that, insisting that the users were violating the "spirit" of the agreement. That's like renting a car on an unlimited mileage plan, and then being penalized because you drove it across a few states, instead of just to the supermarket and back.

If they want to limit it, fine. It's their service. But they MUST state up-front, clearly and plainly, what those exact limitations are. Their method, as it stands now, is borderline fraud.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4961840 Fri, 08 Nov 2002 23:45:19 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4961746 sherpaboy :
"Kick the crap out him" that's rich. How 'bout "kick the crap out of her" if it was a she? Jesus, get a life, "kick the crap out of him cuz you didn't get no respect!"

GOD DAMMIT! IF I BE PAYIN' 10 FREAKIN DOLLARS A MONTH THEY BEST TREAT ME LIKE I BE DA KING OR I GONNA KICK DARE ASS!

Stick with the "vote with the dollar part". It's what real people do. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4961746 Fri, 08 Nov 2002 23:35:47 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4961236 anon : Frankly, I think you guys are being dense. Would you walk out of Tower records with a stack of 250 CDs? No, that would be stupid -- you would buy some, listen to them, and then buy some more. Obviously, this is what EMusic is asking you to do.

Otherwise, you are claiming it is fair to pay them, let's say, $45 (for the 3-month deal) and take hundreds of CDs (or thousands of retail dollars) worth of music. Figure it at about $.50 a disk in mechanical repro royalties (which is around what EMusic claims they pay) and then figure out how much you are looting from them.

Granted, they need to change their policy, but I can see why they decided to cut off all of you jerks first. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4961236 Fri, 08 Nov 2002 22:37:03 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4957313 archfeld : that is a blatant violation of the terms of service. There is NO SUCH THING as the spirit of the agreement, only the ACTUAL words and the interpretation a court puts on them. I'd sue..that is if I was silly enough to actually use a lame service like that.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4957313 Fri, 08 Nov 2002 15:37:33 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4956831 Aramis604 : I'm interested to know what they consider to be a

quote:
huge numbers of tracks
that they cannot possibly ever listen to


Before the whole p2p thing started, I had about 250 store bought CDs. Average that out to about 11 tracks per CD that's 2,750 songs. Now I'll admit I don't listen to all of these daily, but I do listen to all of them from time to time.

how can they possibly think they can put a limit on the number of tracks someone can "possibly" ever list to? How pompous is that?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4956831 Fri, 08 Nov 2002 14:52:52 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4956695 some guy$ : i bought 900 at full price, some of which are offered for pretty much free there--i see it as my way of "evening the score" with record companies that i gave entirely too much money from 1992-1999 ( i did buy 4 "real" cd's since 1999)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4956695 Fri, 08 Nov 2002 14:38:27 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4956360 Dotay : This got me thinking. While they say that 200 albums in 3 days is unreasonable it would be interesting to see what they would accept as reasonable. Lets say for arguments sake that 10 albums a month would be reasonable. Each album has on average 15 songs. So that would get you about 150 songs a month. So at $10.00 per month that equals $.06 per song.

Kind of makes you wonder why the major labels are charging $1.00 per song for their download sites and $15.00 per CD.
[text was edited by author 2002-11-08 14:03:09]
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4956360 Fri, 08 Nov 2002 13:56:56 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4955989 Nightfall :
said by some guy:
i'll save that for when i get booted--i'm going to queue up 200 more albums (discriminately of course) and see what the magic number is, and report it back to you good fellas & fellettes


Please register on this site. I am sure you will find this board to be a very entertaining one and your opinions are welcome. :)
--
My Domain
Nightfall's Hockey and Life Journal]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4955989 Fri, 08 Nov 2002 13:21:57 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4955963 TheWickerMan : "...customers who are downloading huge numbers of tracks that they cannot possibly ever listen to"

Says who? I've bought over 200 CDs, and I've listen to all of them at least once. I listen to a few at work, I always have one in the car, and sometimes I'll even listen to them at home.

Sounds like someone over there said, "Oh, crap! We can't afford the bandwidth!", and decided to change the rules in the middle of the game. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4955963 Fri, 08 Nov 2002 13:18:56 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4955930 anon : i'll save that for when i get booted--i'm going to queue up 200 more albums (discriminately of course) and see what the magic number is, and report it back to you good fellas & fellettes]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4955930 Fri, 08 Nov 2002 13:14:35 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4955881 BIGHUSKER : I hope you replied and told them to "go to hell." If I was paying $10 a month for a service and got talked to like that, I would cancel my account in a second. If a representative of a company talked to me like that in person, I might kick the crap out of him.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4955881 Fri, 08 Nov 2002 13:08:32 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4955809 anon : p.s. i think i downloaded about 1000 albums from them in total, at a total cost of about 120 dollars--all good jazz and blues stuff, some rock, some folk, some country etc.

their service is old, and was created with dialup in mind--the broadband revolution must have caught them off guard--they never saw this fat guy strolling into their HOJO's...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4955809 Fri, 08 Nov 2002 13:00:24 EDT Re: Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4955764 anon : here's what they sent me after i queued up and downloaded 200 albums in 3 days

"Dear EMusic Subscriber,

Over the past several weeks we have noticed unusual activity on your EMusic
account. Your account has been identified as having download activity far in
exceeding that of the overwhelming majority of subscribers.

Although EMusic's goal has been to help consumers discover, sample and
download a wide range of music for personal use and enjoyment, EMusic cannot
continue to operate as a legal source for indiscriminate downloading of
copyrighted sound recordings and musical compositions. Unlike other online
music subscription services, EMusic has gone to great lengths to provide an
open, easy-to-use service, for a reasonable price. Without regard to content
hosting, serving and administrative expenses, royalties payable to recording
artists and/or songwriters with respect to every downloaded track no longer
affords EMusic the luxury of taking these matters lightly.

In order to maintain EMusic's low price while providing a flexible and
compelling service, we must focus on limiting instances of service-abuse by
monitoring the site for unusual activity. Examples of service-abuses include,
but are not limited to, password sharing and use of automated systems to
download quantities of tracks far beyond one's reasonable personal use.
Accounts found to be used in violation of the expressed or implied guidelines
of EMusic's service are subject to immediate cancellation. (See EMusic.com's
Subscription Agreement at »www.emusic.com/bem/new_signup/terms.html,
particularly the termination provisions set forth in Section 7.1.) We ask
that you carefully consider these guidelines and the EMusic.com Subscription
Agreement terms and conditions as you use the service in the future.

Sincerely,
EMusic.com"


here's what i sent them back

"ok this is what your faq says

"EMusic is a revolutionary new music discovery service that offers
an easy and inexpensive way for avid music fans to download and
enjoy over 200,000 high-quality MP3 songs from established musicians.
For as little as $9.99 a month, you can download as much music as
you desire from EMusic's catalog. All of the music is legitimately
licensed from record labels and artists, so you can feel comfortable
knowing that songwriters, musicians and other copyright-holders
are being fairly compensated for their work."

"For as little as $9.99 a month, you can download as much music
as you desire from EMusic's catalog"

downloading 200 albums using YOUR downloading program does not violate
the TOS--if i want to download 1000 albums i will if that is what "i desire"

if i don't fit your business model, that's YOUR problem--not mine.

if you are going to send out emails to everyone who uses the service
to the best of their ability and rail on them for doing what the
site suggests, i.e. "unlimited downloads", then maybe you should change your site"


here was their response

"Dear EMusic Subscriber,

Thank you for contacting us in response to our email
concerning your account activity.

The intent of EMusic has never been to enable
customers to indiscriminately download massive numbers
of songs. We designed EMusic as an interactive
service to allow you to sample, discover and listen to
music from our many label partners.

Although we do not want to discourage active use of
our service, we have concluded that we cannot support
customers who are downloading huge numbers of tracks
that they cannot possibly ever listen to. EMusic pays
music publishers and songwriters a fixed amount for
every track downloaded from our site. This means that
the costs of supporting the small number of users who
abuse EMusic can impact our ability to provide our
service to the rest of our users. We are passionate
about EMusic, and we are working hard to ensure the
service continues to grow and meet our customers'
needs.

As a guideline, please use the service as it was
intended to be used -- for sampling songs and albums
and downloading numbers of tracks you can personally
use and enjoy. We hope this background information is
helpful and that you continue to enjoy EMusic.

EMusic.com"


they can go to hell]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4955764 Fri, 08 Nov 2002 12:54:10 EDT Well deyamn... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4955456 stirgeon : I used this service for about 3 months last year and I thought it was perfect. I must have dloaded at least 25 albums over that span. I wonder what the threshold is for the Gestapo to start knocking on your door?

I always recommended them to my friends. Guess that is over. FTP and eDonkey!!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4955456 Fri, 08 Nov 2002 12:18:43 EDT