Re: Competion? in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r5270750 en Sun, 21 Mar 2010 22:41:47 EDT Sun, 21 Mar 2010 22:41:47 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5285484 BrianDamage : Thanks for the suggestions. I will follow up on them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5285484 Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:53:34 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5285452 BrianDamage : No, that last line isn't what I meant to say.
I understand how the infrastructure is built. I built many of the backbone connections out between the companies I worked for (Covad, Rhythms) and our partners (Flashcom, JumpNet, etc.) I know that the back door to the ISP can give rise to service differences. I know this. I ran DS3 backbones between ATM switches in our POPs to Redback and Cisco routers that belonged to our partners, and configured them, on several occasions.
What we have now though, is a fundamental LACK of competitive choice, even under these circumstances. Most of the independent ISPs like we had before have "gone the way of the boneyard" as Gump put it, and those like Prodigy, etc., and just the long arm of SBC.
In my area, I have no choices. Period. It is just the same way in 95% of the rest of the country.
For someone to say that there is "too much competition" is just friggin' ridiculous.
--
After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5285452 Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:50:35 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5285231 Count Hogula$ :
said by BigMac777 See Profile:
I am in San Antonio, Tx. And I don't have a DSL provider in my area. SBC SW Bell is the local phone carrier. Also I have (1) one cable choice, Time Warner. I choose Dish Satellite and Earthlink Cable for the computer. As I said this is San Antonio. These are my only choices. SBC SW Bell might wire my part of town next year. Who knows, This is a town of (1) million plus.


How many choices do you have for wireless? Long distance? The world of Telco goes far beyond DSL.
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The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5285231 Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:21:23 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5285026 boogie74 :
quote:
I am in San Antonio, Tx. And I don't have a DSL provider in my area. SBC SW Bell is the local phone carrier. Also I have (1) one cable choice, Time Warner. I choose Dish Satellite and Earthlink Cable for the computer. As I said this is San Antonio. These are my only choices. SBC SW Bell might wire my part of town next year. Who knows, This is a town of (1) million plus.


As it's been stated before, I will say it again- this article isn't saying that there is too much broadband competition. It's saying that there is too much telecom competition.

There is a HUGE difference. As far as broadband, no one wants to invest in it when there is no profit to be made- and that includes the RBOC's. There is NO incentive to deploy a product when you are required to share your investments with your competitors who invest nothing.

Boogie]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5285026 Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:54:44 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5282793 sadowski :
said by npyoung See Profile:
Ok, what about a 1.5/1.5M (or, what the heck, 2.3/2.3M) connection, but you pay for the bandwidth you use? Metered use, some connection between speeds and the basic fee, or the cost of that bandwidth per/GB. (Ie; slower bw would cost less per/GB).
I have no problem with people paying for actual bandwidth usage instead of speed. In fact, I've argued that it's the fairest way of charging.
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In this world of sin and sorrow, there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican. -- H.L. Mencken]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5282793 Wed, 11 Dec 2002 01:40:32 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5281995 BigMac777 : I am in San Antonio, Tx. And I don't have a DSL provider in my area. SBC SW Bell is the local phone carrier. Also I have (1) one cable choice, Time Warner. I choose Dish Satellite and Earthlink Cable for the computer. As I said this is San Antonio. These are my only choices. SBC SW Bell might wire my part of town next year. Who knows, This is a town of (1) million plus. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5281995 Wed, 11 Dec 2002 00:02:04 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5281358 npyoung : Ok, what about a 1.5/1.5M (or, what the heck, 2.3/2.3M) connection, but you pay for the bandwidth you use? Metered use, some connection between speeds and the basic fee, or the cost of that bandwidth per/GB. (Ie; slower bw would cost less per/GB).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5281358 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 23:09:03 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5276642 sadowski :
said by BrianDamage See Profile:
Nice suggestions, but one, I can't afford all of that right now.
I have to use the router I have (a Netgear 314) and the computer I have.
Thanks for suggesting that though.
Second, I NEVER said everyone needs more than 128k-I did say that more than that should be available to those that want it. Don't twist my words around.
You can buy it. VOL offers 1.5/384 and 7.1/768, and some of us are lobbying them to offer individual options such as 256,384,512, etc. upstream at reasonable rates (i.e. you could get say 768/384 for $60). VOL subscribers should visit the newsgroup 0.verizon.suggestion.box and post their support (find the subject 'Service Plan Options' or start a new thread).
quote:
As far as my argument on static IPS-maybe you don't need one because you have all that equipment that I don't, and many others can't afford all of that, either.
A UPnP router like the Linksys can be purchased for about the cost of a single month's of service. ZoneEdit will provide DNS for free. No DSL company gives away computers.
quote:
I work in Telecom, and as a result, work has been sporadic at best this year.
Check my location. This ain't exactly a hot bed of economic opportunity.
--
In this world of sin and sorrow, there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican. -- H.L. Mencken]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5276642 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 17:02:12 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5276464 Hayward :
said by BrianDamage See Profile:
Lastly, it is dynamic with no choice of static-even if I would consider it, it's not what I want. I can't run my home LAN off of a static IP.

Is that last line what you meant to say???
Not sure what a WAN IP has to do with running LAN anyway that is all internal.
Many people run home networks using dynamic IP as well as static.

It being a Verizon piece of copper or even the DSLAM has nothing to do with the connection being static or dynamic... that is all the ISP's doing. (for instance here Bell South is dynamic, but my DTVDSL (via BS infrastructure is static)

So yes you are stuck with the Verizon copper & DSLAM but there are many different things individual ISP's can do to offer "choices".
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»haywardm.com (Hayward's Key West) ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5276464 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:43:55 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5276067 jethrogump : With all this consider several thousand companies providing Internet service have gone to the bone yard over the last several years.

Your backbone providers L-3, WorldCom, TWTC and such want to raise prices on bandwidth now like right now. Dial up already got 1-2 bucks per sub about a month ago.

Your pricing from the ISP for service each month is barely covering the bandwidth cost today and if you’re a bandwidth hog they lose money same for sharing connections with the neighbors. This is really a kicker to wireless as most of those guys buy bandwidth from a middle company with a NOC.

Today when you talk broadband really very few ISP's run the pipes. Most of the DSL you see from someone besides WorldCom, SBC, Verizon and a few more are just resale’s making about 5 bucks a month per sub.

You also might see another big flame out this year if COVAD doesn’t see good numbers. Now this is a company html MICROSOFT SHOULD BUY :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5276067 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:06:06 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5275862 BrianDamage : Nice suggestions, but one, I can't afford all of that right now.
I have to use the router I have (a Netgear 314) and the computer I have.
Thanks for suggesting that though.
Second, I NEVER said everyone needs more than 128k-I did say that more than that should be available to those that want it. Don't twist my words around.
As far as my argument on static IPS-maybe you don't need one because you have all that equipment that I don't, and many others can't afford all of that, either.
I work in Telecom, and as a result, work has been sporadic at best this year.
Anyhoo, when a pile of money drops in my lap I will consider what you suggested. It's a good idea, but just beyond my means right now.
--
After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5275862 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:49:56 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5275022 sadowski :
said by BrianDamage See Profile:
Why do I need a static IP? Can YOU run a NAT router off of a dynamic IP with a LAN behind it? If so, explain to me how to do it.
Sure. Easy. Thousands of us do it. Get a BB router. Get a domain name. Hook up the router and run a dynamic DNS client to update the name servers and setup appropriate port forwarding. »www.paulsadowski.com/ Simple enough. UPnP router is best. There are two sets of servers there on two different machines but I'm taking one offline to upgrade the OS. They each have different subdomain names. What's the problem?

Also, for most people 128 up is reasonable. It's not suitable for all, I'd certainly like better, but claiming that everyone needs more undercuts your arguments almost as much as your above argument on static IPs.
--
In this world of sin and sorrow, there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican. -- H.L. Mencken]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5275022 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:17:52 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5274929 BBC4544 : why should you force a company to provide a service at what you deem a reasonable price?? if you have a problem with sbc providing a service and making a profit please pack up and move to china or cuba and get your broadband there. you are not an excitable boy, you are a communist boy.

As far as cooking the books, i think mci and at&t are guilty of that not sbc. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5274929 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:05:22 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5274883 sadowski :
said by BrianDamage See Profile:
Rhythms used to be in my area, as was Covad. Rhythms went Chap11, and Covad pulled out of my CO.
I used to have Rhythms, NP, Covad and VZ. Now I have VZ and Choice One (and the evil Adelphia on the cable side). Covad is still here but doesn't service my CO. The CC's got into a big price war and killed themselves off. It's predominantly their own fault. Greed kills. Additionally, DSL is not so prevalent that every company can have facilities at every CO. I would rather have one reasonably priced resource than a bunch of instable wildly priced services of questionable service and lifetime. Competition has become an unthinking mantra, but it only works when a critical mass has been exceeded and there is room for competitors to succeed.
--
In this world of sin and sorrow, there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican. -- H.L. Mencken]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5274883 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:00:44 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5274512 ntguru911 : I've tried to explain that ALL ISPS oversubscribe their bandwidth. That is the only way they are offering even the current speeds at a lower price. What exactly constitutes a low price is another argument but the point is $40 or even $100/mo for a 1.5mbps is way less than a T1 or even the fraction of a T3.

I didn't care specifically, just to know if the 30MB upload was making you money or not. I do run a NAT router both off a dynamic DSL and dynamic cable connection. It is actually pretty easy!

For about $100 you could pick up a high-gain antenna but 2.4 miles would be pushing the Wi-Fi limits without a high-gain antenna on the other end too. Maybe talk to the shop owner and strike a deal? Any idea what they pay for that dedicated T1? Bet it's a lot more than $100/mo!

I see. I guess it simply boils down to my first paragraph. You probably have to have worked in/with/for an ISP to fully understand the general way it works.

As far as hosting a small site goes, I actually totally agree with you. Most DSL providers will let you do this while most cable at least prohibit it in their TOS. Now if it is for profit, I think you should have to pay more....maybe double?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5274512 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:21:41 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5274399 BrianDamage : You implied it, not me.
(wipes the drool from his chin)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5274399 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:09:43 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5274390 BrianDamage : And seriously....I'd like to hear your specific suggested TOS wording to make sure some residential user with 1500/1500 doesn't run a news server (for example) which uses 1500/1500 24/7?
And why shouldn't someone be able to run a server off of their DSL connection? If they pay for 1500/1500, then that's what they should get.
What are you pushing upstream that's over 30MB? Do you need a static IP? What for?
Nosy! Nosy! Lemme guess....you are with the Citizen Corps already :)
Why do I need a static IP? Can YOU run a NAT router off of a dynamic IP with a LAN behind it? If so, explain to me how to do it.
How far away is the hotspot? 2.4 miles away.... Have you tried getting a decent WAP and a Yagi? No.... Do you happen to know what they use for their connection? I believe it is a dedicated T-1....
And seriously....I'd like to hear your specific suggested TOS wording to make sure some residential user with 1500/1500 doesn't run a news server (for example) which uses 1500/1500 24/7?
Easy. Verbage should be to the effect of that synchronicity will be available at off-peak hours, and that during peak periods the bandwidth will vary,just as many TOSs already state, particularly where cable modem service is concerned.
What do people have against people running servers that don't necessarily have anything to do with a connection to a business with a DBA?
Maybe I want to host a site myself that contains photography or something, not necessarily for profit. Why shouldn't I be able to?
--
After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5274390 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:08:15 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273895 footballdude :
said by BrianDamage See Profile:
So now the RBOCs are guilty of cooking the books too, are they


Note the words 'can be'. They make a difference. You really are an 'excitable boy', aren't you?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273895 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:07:43 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273892 ntguru911 : Stop oversubscribing? Even the best ISPs overscribe, usually a minumum of a 4/1 ratio.

What are you pushing upstream that's over 30MB? Do you need a static IP? What for?

How far away is the hotspot? Have you tried getting a decent WAP and a Yagi? Do you happen to know what they use for their connection?

And seriously....I'd like to hear your specific suggested TOS wording to make sure some residential user with 1500/1500 doesn't run a news server (for example) which uses 1500/1500 24/7?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273892 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:07:19 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273698 BrianDamage : Easy. Stop oversubscribing and be more accurate inasmuch as what data rates are reasonable.
If the carriers can't carry the traffic, then upgrade so that they can.
There is no bandwidth "glut." The only problem is the carrier's willingness to do capacity upgrades on networks that are becoming more and more inadequate.
Look, sometimes I push attachments upstream that are over 30 mb in size-at least I did when I had DSL-try that now over dial up and you will be pushing that attachment all day.
Why don't I have DSL now? Because Verizon is my only choice, they have caps, and dynamic IPs. No good for me.
So I do my my home-office "paper" pushing from the hotspot down the street.
I'll have a cappucino while I'm at it.
--
After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273698 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:42:38 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273605 ntguru911 : So what exactly do you propose the TOS verbage be for making sure rez. users don't blow out the oversubscription ratio?

There is a fine line between making money in business and greed. I'm not sure I'm qualified to pass judgement in this case and frankly am not sure if you are either.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273605 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:28:39 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273525 BrianDamage : There are other ways of determining the difference between a business and commercial use.
When the TOS states that a service is one or the other, and a user deliberately violates the TOS, then the provider has the discretion of disconnecting the service or seeking reparations.
This does not justify unreasonable caps right off of the bat. Sorry. It's greed. Nothing more.
--
After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273525 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:19:48 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273493 BrianDamage : I'm not sure why people here think that the only business that telco's offer is DSL.

Boog, I never said that TA1996 was only for DCLECs, nor did I say that all RBOCs offer is DSL. When did I ever say that?
There were other CLECs who were interested in other things (local dial-tone services, long distance, per-paid local, pre-paid long distance,etc.)
They have had the same problems with RBOCs with respect to the unbundling of facilities, so don't confuse the issue. It just so happened that the DCLECs were more gung-ho about chasing up violations of the act and seeing them through a court of law.
Others could just ride the coat-tails of the decisions, because when the DCLECs got the decisions, it would benefit all of the others too.
It's called letting someone else do the work.
They have complained when the news stated that SBC is lowering prices- claiming that it was anti-competitive. They have complained when the news stated that Verizon had layoffs- claiming that it was affecting DSL rollouts.
SBC lowered prices to an unfair level while charging CLECs so much that they could not possibly offer a service at the same price. THAT is what was anti-competitive, because it was a deliberate attempt at undercutting competitors by using unfair practices. At to "add insult to injury" as you put it, the RBOCs would sic their own sales people on those who had contacted competitors for service, telling them that "we" could offer you service cheaper than the "competitor".
SBC got sued over this very tactic.
As far the layoffs go, it was the RBOCs that claimed that competition was forcing layoffs, thereby delaying the Pronto deployment, which continues to be a hostage tactic in getting their agendas through Congress.
This idea was the basis for Tauzin-Dingell.
The CLECs decried the misinformation being disseminated by the RBOCs.
--
After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273493 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:15:45 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273487 ntguru911 : While I have agreed with this point and preached it often on the business side, that wasn't my point on the residential side.

I was simply saying ISPs have to have some way to make sure a non-home user doesn't take advantage of a *residential service's* high upload speed to do something like run a high-end web site, news server, etc. Residential service is based on intentional oversubscription and if everyone had 1500/1500 and there were no limits, there'd be a bazillion Kazaa servers, and FTP, and game, etc. and the oversubscription ratio would be screwed.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273487 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:15:19 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273402 BrianDamage : The ISPs have to do something to make sure businesses don't use this $50/mo connection in place of an always busy T1 used for serious web serving, mail, news, etc.
Bingo! My point exactly. Why would the RBOCs want to push DSL when they want to sell T-1s? I'm glad someone understands.
--
After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273402 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:03:59 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273390 BrianDamage : Believe it, the Telcos are feeling much pain right now. The RBOCS are losing land lines at an alarming rate due to competition from other phone companies and cannibalism from wireless. Regardless of profits (which can be manipulated by accountants) the real statement of position for a company is the stock price and the telco stocks have taken a real beating in the last couple of years with no relief in sight.
Really? Funny, the RBOCs are the only ones to turn profits in the last ten years. So as to say that even during the CLEC "heyday" only the RBOCs turned profits.
So now the RBOCs are guilty of cooking the books too, are they? You an SBC accountant? I guess you slipped up and spilled the beans. Hey SEC........!!!!
--
After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273390 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:02:23 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273364 BrianDamage : You make it sound as if the telcos are gonna pit their own services against each other, which is not the truth.
If anything, they spew untruths about their own DSL and capabilities particularly where small to medium businesses are concerned so that they can pitch their more expensive services (full and frac T-1s, frame relay, etc.)
--
After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273364 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:59:31 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273348 BrianDamage : Are you on a private or mini regional bell? If not how is it you only have one choice for DSL??? Cable I can understand that, but not DSL. Satellite you should have two.
The RBOC I have is Verizon.
Rhythms used to be in my area, as was Covad. Rhythms went Chap11, and Covad pulled out of my CO.
Earthlink offers re-packaged Verizon DSL-so it is that any one independent ISP offering "competitive" DSL 9 times out of 10 is selling a bundled RBOC-provided DSL service-which is really not competition at all. You are still getting an RBOC offering, just re-badged. A lot of people don't realize that. Lastly, it is dynamic with no choice of static-even if I would consider it, it's not what I want. I can't run my home LAN off of a static IP. So do I have choice? No.
Cable? AT&T Broadband is the only game in town. To get it, I have to buy their cable service too. Is this choice? No.
Satellite? I have DirectTV, but don't want DirectPC because of the caps and latency. Dish? Can't get it. Choice here? No.
There are no wireless providers that have a viable alternative, like fixed wireless (Axcelerra, etc.), RBOC or not. Choice? You see where I'm going with this.
Even with the DSL faux "choices" available, they are all re-packaged RBOC services, and given the "choice",I would choose DSL because it is superior to cable and satellite. But I DON'T have any choices. Period.
--
After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273348 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:56:45 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273192 boogie74 :
said by Count Hogula$ See Profile:
said by Hayward See Profile:
said by BrianDamage See Profile:
I have one DSL choice, one cable choice, one satellite choice? That's too much competition?


Are you on a private or mini regional bell? If not how is it you only have one choice for DSL??? Cable I can understand that, but not DSL. Satellite you should have two.

More if you count "big" dishes. And again...telco is more than just DSL. Telco is wireless, DSL, business data services, long distance...and much much more. ALL are having fierce competition...too fierce.


I'm not sure why people here think that the only business that telco's offer is DSL. They consistently make statements about how TA1996 was all about linesharing and how UNE-P is all about DSL- and they refuse to understand that there is MUCH MUCH MORE to the picture than whether Covad can offer lineshare DSL while the ILEC sells only POTS service.

Adding insult to injury, people here have incredibly anti-ILEC attitudes that cause them to scream bloody murder when ANYTHING happens news-wise that happens to mention an ILEC.

They have complained when the news stated that SBC is lowering prices- claiming that it was anti-competitive. They have complained when the news stated that Verizon had layoffs- claiming that it was affecting DSL rollouts.

It all proves one thing only- people as a whole will read their own meaning into ANYTHING.

Boogie]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273192 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:34:49 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273156 ntguru911 : So would you go for Something like a 1500/1500 (assuming it's possible) package with say a 500 MB/mo upload cap? The ISPs have to do something to make sure businesses don't use this $50/mo connection in place of an always busy T1 used for serious web serving, mail, news, etc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5273156 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:30:46 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5272973 footballdude :
said by averagedude See Profile:
It feels like the tele-coms can make stupid mistakes they want and they never "feel" the pain, but pass it on to the customers.


Believe it, the Telcos are feeling much pain right now. The RBOCS are losing land lines at an alarming rate due to competition from other phone companies and cannibalism from wireless. Regardless of profits (which can be manipulated by accountants) the real statement of position for a company is the stock price and the telco stocks have taken a real beating in the last couple of years with no relief in sight. The only way this pain can be passed on to customers is through rate hikes or service degradation. Rates are regulated by the public service commissions in each state. If you think your rates are too high you complain to your state's commission, not the telcos. For service degradation you'd complain to the telco, but who amongst us can say their phones don't work?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5272973 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:06:14 EDT Comrades, our politicians know what is best http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5272230 macyh : Da, we must remove messy and inefficient competition from market. Congress and FCC know best what is good for American people. The solution is central planning from out find government, comrade.

Large telco, cable and media monopolies make large political contributions and pay for expensive lobbying and many fine dinners, this keeps large government officials well fed, satisfied and happy. Large media organizations support think tanks which issue reports in favor of big government, media consolidation and controlled competition. In this way, large media monopoly owned news and PR organizations have much to report about that is good for large media.

Much more efficient that all those small players nipping at our heels and supporting pesky organizations like EFF and EPIC who always ask embarrassing questions. And the small players don't contribute to campaigns or run feel good news stories, either.
--
Macy Hallock APK Net, Inc. Cleveland, Ohio
[text was edited by author 2002-12-10 08:08:32]
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5272230 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:05:44 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5272206 Count Hogula$ :
said by Hayward See Profile:
said by BrianDamage See Profile:
I have one DSL choice, one cable choice, one satellite choice? That's too much competition?


Are you on a private or mini regional bell? If not how is it you only have one choice for DSL??? Cable I can understand that, but not DSL. Satellite you should have two.

More if you count "big" dishes. And again...telco is more than just DSL. Telco is wireless, DSL, business data services, long distance...and much much more. ALL are having fierce competition...too fierce.
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The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5272206 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 07:58:38 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5272100 Maxo :
quote:
I am tired of hearing that the customers have to carry the burden of all the mistakes of the big companies.

Not to mention the employees that have been working hard to keep them in business. They have to pay too. The people who drive the SUVs and made the bad decisions that is why the company is going down, they don't have to pay.
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»www.tfn.net/~jdbaucum
[text was edited by author 2002-12-10 07:28:31]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5272100 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 07:25:56 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5270750 Hayward :
said by BrianDamage See Profile:
I have one DSL choice, one cable choice, one satellite choice? That's too much competition?


Are you on a private or mini regional bell? If not how is it you only have one choice for DSL??? Cable I can understand that, but not DSL. Satellite you should have two.
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»haywardm.com (Hayward's Key West) ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5270750 Tue, 10 Dec 2002 00:25:49 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5270221 BrianDamage : Yeah, nice lengthy post. I will point out that the analogy is kinda flawed, being that hundreds of bakeries make bread, and you can get it anywhere, anytime, for around the same price.
The same can't be said for broadband of any flavor.
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After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5270221 Mon, 09 Dec 2002 23:30:04 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5270164 weebies$ : Nice post. Really enjoyed reading it. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5270164 Mon, 09 Dec 2002 23:24:12 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5270072 BrianDamage : Boogie takes that position because he is "Pavlov's dog" in this area. He works for an RBOC. What position do you expect him to take?
Normally, Boog has good opinions on things, but I continually disagree with him on this topic.
I agree that 128k is garbage. I know that if you want to send a large attachment to anyone then you will waiting quite a while at that upload speed, and the whole "anything above 128k is a business rate and not a consumer rate" is a bogus argument. The RBOCs can provide it but won't. It is a matter of the consumer "sheeple" being forced to buy what THEY choose to offer.
My opinion also is that it is a tactic to hold the consumers and government "hostage" under the premise that unless the RBOCs get all of the pro-RBOC legislation that they seek as well as dismantling what is left of TA1996, then no innovation such as Project Pronto will go forward.
It's all a political tug-of-war to move their agendas through Congress to reinforce the same monopolies that they have enjoyed for over 100 years.
--
After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5270072 Mon, 09 Dec 2002 23:17:17 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5269842 alex4life :
said by boogie74 See Profile:
If you need better upload rates than 128 Kbps, then you are doing MUCH MORE than Joe Consumer surfing the web, playing an occasional online game, checking and sending email, and downloading music/video files.

When you want consumer rates for non-consumer use and complaining because the TOS doesn't allow for that, something besides the TOS stinks.

Boogie
That's a matter of opinion, not fact. 128 is a crap upload. What if you want to send a big file to a friend? It takes forever! Why can't our speeds be more synchronous? Why is that considered to be criminal by you?

If these services don't offer what people want, then maybe they shouldn't be offering them at all. Maybe that's the problem. The demand is there, but the companies can't supply it.

And he has a point. No one is offering anything better.
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"A Festivus for the rest of us" -Seinfeld Drop by the Canadian Forum!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5269842 Mon, 09 Dec 2002 22:57:47 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5269784 BrianDamage : "If it's available" is the key problem.
"The U.S. telecom market might best be an inherent oligopoly, where you should have only have three or four players per region, because it is such a capital-intensive industry."
Too much competition? Ummmmm....kay.....I have one DSL choice, one cable choice, one satellite choice? That's too much competition? Please.
I wonder how much SBC paid that analyst to say what he said.
And Hog, according to your logic, then any "new" company that wants to provide competitive service has to start OUT as a large company, eh? Name ONE that started out large and got smaller, instead of the only other way, which is start small and get LARGER.
It is nice to see that one analyst acknowledges the oligopoly that exists, though.

--
After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5269784 Mon, 09 Dec 2002 22:52:41 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5269614 ihaddsl :
said by boogie74 See Profile:
said by MAR_03_2002 See Profile:
said by averagedude See Profile:
"There's too much competition at just about every level." I thought we wanted competition in order to drive down prices for the consumer.
The competition is GREAT for the consumer. Just don't invest your 401k money in telco stocks. Their stock prices aren't going up any time soon.


Correction- don't invest your 401(k) in telco stocks IFF (if and only if) you are retiring in the next 2-5 years.

If you have another 15-30 years to go before retirement, telco is the EXACT WAY to invest your 401(k) money. Think about it- you are buying stock at DIRT CHEAP prices. Are you actually afraid that in the next 20-30 years the market won't change for the better?

I, for one, would rather have 40 shares purchased at $1 and now worth $50 than 1 share purchased at $40 and now worth $50. My 40 shares would be worth $200 vs the 1 share at $50.

About 11% of people actually make money in the stock market- and it is primarily because they don't understand the idea of "buy low, sell high." They buy high and sell when it bombs to a low- saying, "don't buy now! the prices for stock are too low!!"

I say, "Are you that crazy??"

Booogie

sssshhhhh

don't let the secret out !
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War has no winners, only losers]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5269614 Mon, 09 Dec 2002 22:39:18 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5269447 boogie74 :
said by dvd536 See Profile:
said by djrobx See Profile:
One bread shop, having cornered the market, overcharges $10 for a bland loaf of bread. Then 4 new competitors come in with new types of breads and better prices (say $2 a loaf), forcing the original company to do better. Everyone enjoys better tasting bread at lower prices
The problem is is that nobody is making a better loaf of bread. its all this sleepy 1500/128 crap. us consumers have been crying for YEARS for BETTER UPLOAD RATES. now its the same 1500/128 but who has the most liberal TOS. that isnt better, thats just who's tightening the screws to us the least. if they can have 10,000/10,000 for $22 in sweden why cant we even have 2,000/2,000 for $50?


If you need better upload rates than 128 Kbps, then you are doing MUCH MORE than Joe Consumer surfing the web, playing an occasional online game, checking and sending email, and downloading music/video files.

When you want consumer rates for non-consumer use and complaining because the TOS doesn't allow for that, something besides the TOS stinks.

Boogie]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5269447 Mon, 09 Dec 2002 22:27:26 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5269381 boogie74 :
said by MAR_03_2002 See Profile:
said by averagedude See Profile:
"There's too much competition at just about every level." I thought we wanted competition in order to drive down prices for the consumer.
The competition is GREAT for the consumer. Just don't invest your 401k money in telco stocks. Their stock prices aren't going up any time soon.


Correction- don't invest your 401(k) in telco stocks IFF (if and only if) you are retiring in the next 2-5 years.

If you have another 15-30 years to go before retirement, telco is the EXACT WAY to invest your 401(k) money. Think about it- you are buying stock at DIRT CHEAP prices. Are you actually afraid that in the next 20-30 years the market won't change for the better?

I, for one, would rather have 40 shares purchased at $1 and now worth $50 than 1 share purchased at $40 and now worth $50. My 40 shares would be worth $200 vs the 1 share at $50.

About 11% of people actually make money in the stock market- and it is primarily because they don't understand the idea of "buy low, sell high." They buy high and sell when it bombs to a low- saying, "don't buy now! the prices for stock are too low!!"

I say, "Are you that crazy??"

Booogie]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5269381 Mon, 09 Dec 2002 22:21:57 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5269304 dvd536 :
said by djrobx See Profile:
One bread shop, having cornered the market, overcharges $10 for a bland loaf of bread. Then 4 new competitors come in with new types of breads and better prices (say $2 a loaf), forcing the original company to do better. Everyone enjoys better tasting bread at lower prices
The problem is is that nobody is making a better loaf of bread. its all this sleepy 1500/128 crap. us consumers have been crying for YEARS for BETTER UPLOAD RATES. now its the same 1500/128 but who has the most liberal TOS. that isnt better, thats just who's tightening the screws to us the least. if they can have 10,000/10,000 for $22 in sweden why cant we even have 2,000/2,000 for $50?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5269304 Mon, 09 Dec 2002 22:17:03 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5268989 djrobx : Nothing is that black-and-white. Certainly not economics!

Ideally:

Competition amongst a handful of vendors ensures that each vendor strives to have customers give them their dollars. They provide incentives and the most reasonable price possible while maintaining enough profitability to have good service quality, ensuring that they are chosen over the competition.

(Let's use a bread shop as an example)

One bread shop, having cornered the market, overcharges $10 for a bland loaf of bread. Then 4 new competitors come in with new types of breads and better prices (say $2 a loaf), forcing the original company to do better. Everyone enjoys better tasting bread at lower prices.

Less ideally:

A big corporation comes in and competes with smaller companies in town. To do this, they sell their product at a loss long enough to put the smaller guys out of business. The consumers benefit from this practice, until the competition is gone and the prices go up.

BreadMart comes in and sells halfway decent bread for .10 a loaf, for 6 months. Even if the local mom'n pop bread tasted better, it's just hard for the consumer to pass up such a good deal. Since nobody's buying mom'n pop's bread, they and other's like them can't withstand to lose money for that long and all go out of business. BreadMart jacks the prices back up to $5 a loaf.

Even less ideally:

There's so much competition in the sector that none of the companies are turning enough of a profit to maintain a decent service level.

Since bread was such a hot item, everyone is trying to sell it at $2 a loaf. There are 30 vendors selling bread. Not enough variety to make any one vendor noticeably better than the other (they're all selling pretty much the same thing), so people more or less choose at random. There's only 200 people in town that buy bread, so each vendor is only selling 5 or 6 loaves a day on average. The profits from 5 loafs a day isn't enough to pay the rent and for the employees, so they all shorten their hours, hire the cheapest help they can find, and resort to using inferior quality ingredients to stay alive. People get so used to inferior service but continue to pay because they "need" bread. A couple companies attempt to sell good quality bread with good service at $3 to turn a proper profit, but people are now so used to *cheap bread with mediocre service* that it seems overpriced.

So, competition isn't *always* the answer.
[text was edited by author 2002-12-09 21:56:14]
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5268989 Mon, 09 Dec 2002 21:53:13 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5268296 Count Hogula$ : Prices on cell phones aren't high. Look how much minutes and hardware costs 7 years ago compared to today. Internet isn't expensive as it's relative. 10 years ago Netcom provided 14.4 service for $20...now you can get 10Mb for $40 if it's available. Deployment is a different issue from general telecom competition. ISP isn't a telecom's bread and butter business.

And lastly...your complaints about QoS is a direct result from competition. There aren't the profits to improve service, deploy, expand, etc. Technology advancements in phones while appearing to be part of the whole telco scene actually don't come from telcos...they come from manufactuers like Motorola who only make the phones but don't do the content providing.
--
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5268296 Mon, 09 Dec 2002 20:58:08 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5268113 pkust :
said by averagedude See Profile:
I thought we wanted competition in order to drive down prices for the consumer.
Consumers want competition because it lowers prices. Suppliers don't want competition for exactly the same reason.

Whether there is too much or too little competition is highly dependent on which side of the supply and demand equation you happen to be standing.
--
Cordially,

Peter Nayland Kust
pkust@tekmedia.com
TEKMedia Communications
www.tekmedia.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5268113 Mon, 09 Dec 2002 20:44:21 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5267885 averagedude : Still confused.

But, prices on internet and cell phones are still high (example ATTi/Comcast raising rates again). Isn't there a point where reducing prices to bring on board more customers will generate revenue that otherwise they would never had. They are suppose to make it up in bulk/quantity of sales. That is what Wal-Mart does.

I still feel that we as customers are still getting gouged (in general like internet and cell phone). I am tired of hearing that the customers have to carry the burden of all the mistakes of the big companies. It feels like the tele-coms can make stupid mistakes they want and they never "feel" the pain, but pass it on to the customers.
For example, I don't understand cell phones the take pictures, when I still get messages say "NO SERVICE" in populated area. I think they should focus on the basics first. Just my 2 cents.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5267885 Mon, 09 Dec 2002 20:27:54 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5267878 MAR_03_2002 :
said by averagedude See Profile:
"There's too much competition at just about every level." I thought we wanted competition in order to drive down prices for the consumer.
The competition is GREAT for the consumer. Just don't invest your 401k money in telco stocks. Their stock prices aren't going up any time soon.
--
I found out that all the important lessons of life are contained in the three rules for achieving a perfect golf swing: 1.Keep your head down - 2. Follow through - 3. Be born with money]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5267878 Mon, 09 Dec 2002 20:27:26 EDT Re: Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5267695 Count Hogula$ : Not always...otherwise there aren't enough profits to push forward innovation and new products. Companies just slug along fighting for continued survival. They have to prepare themselves for an economic bump and if some fail it makes investors nervous and that's where a lot of their money comes from. Companies need to be big enough to weather an occasional storm without severe changes in services or going under. Right now...there aren't enough profits being made by some telcos that they're desperate...and they run down prices damaging profitable companies like Verizon. It brings down average service as companies like Verizon have cut services (thus costs) to match the price point of a failing and desperate company.

Some consolidation is good...but not this crap that the FCC is permitting like the ATTB/Comcast merger.
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The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson
[text was edited by author 2002-12-09 20:12:26]
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5267695 Mon, 09 Dec 2002 20:12:04 EDT Competion? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5267623 averagedude : "There's too much competition at just about every level."

Someone please explain this.

I thought we wanted competition in order to drive down prices for the consumer.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,5267623 Mon, 09 Dec 2002 20:06:26 EDT