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Beebe

join:2002-10-25
Beebe, AR

APPO Capacity

I'm planning on using an airpoint pro as my first access point on my WISP. I'm just wondering how many people I'll be able to service from one access point.

I read in the FAQ on smartBridges website...

How many Access Point Clients can be assocaited with airPoint-PROOutdoor simultaneously ?
airPoint-PROOutdoor can work with 108 Access Point Clients simultaneously.

and

How many PCs can be connected to airPoint-PROOutdoor simultaneously in client bridge mode ?
You can connect upto 108 PCs to airPoint-PROOutdoor in client bridge mode using ethernet Hub simultaneously.

This leaves me with a question...

Are they saying I can have up to 108 airPoint pros as CPE in client bridge mode, and each one can have up to 108 PCs behind them? So I can have for example 108 clients with airpoint pros many having multiple PCs behind it?

or are they saying I can have 108 total PCs/MAC addresses so that if each client had 2 pcs I could have a maximum of 54 airpoint pros as clients to this one radio?

TIA!



superdog
I Need A Drink
Premium,MVM
join:2001-07-13
Lebanon, PA

They are saying that the AirBridge AirPoint Pro can handle a maximum of 108 MAC addresses.I.E.,You could hook up 107 single computers and another APPO total to it
--
»www.wavecrazy.net


SB Tech

join:2002-10-20
Allentown, PA
reply to Beebe

I have clipped the correct answer from your text -

"Are they saying I can have up to 108 airPoint pros as CPE in client bridge mode, and each one can have up to 108 PCs behind them? So I can have for example 108 clients with airpoint pros many having multiple PCs behind it?"
--

smartBridges Customer Support Team
Email: support@smartbridges.com



raindog3

join:2002-10-23
Ireland

Wooo! ... sounds pretty damn good .... but ..... obviously if you have 108 times 108 connected thats some heavy utilisation at the head end ... that is theory ... what is a resonable amount in practice ?


SB Tech

join:2002-10-20
Allentown, PA

I hear the numbers in the range of 30 to 50 subscribers per AP. It kind of depends on the type of service you are offering, residential, business, their usage pattern etc. And the WISP operator has to arrive at his/her own utilization factor depending on the subscriber demographics.

As an example, just because you have a large number of subscribers does not mean they all will be using it simultaneously. Biz and Residential mix is ideal to balance the day time and night time usage.

Hope this helps. But I am sure there are a lot more experienced WISP who can add more value to this.
--

smartBridges Customer Support Team
Email: support@smartbridges.com



Beebe

join:2002-10-25
Beebe, AR
reply to raindog3

You don't think I can support 11664 PCs on a T3 via a single airpoint pro?

Whyever not?

Seriously though it sounds like an airpoint will support a lot of users and a lot of connected networks. I may go 100% smartbridges for my network. Especially with this new "Total" product coming out.

Considering I have to pay for each antenna spot on the water tower, the more users I can get on each AP the better.


SB Tech

join:2002-10-20
Allentown, PA

said by Beebe:
You don't think I can support 11664 PCs on a T3 via a single airpoint pro?

Whyever not?

Well I just did a quick calculation. Let's say there is about 100 sq. feet of area associated with each PC. So you will need to cover about 1000x1000 feet rectangle with one aPP. In a clear LOS it is possible, even with the standard rubber ducky.

But forget about the aPP. Can we sell you the 11664 airBridges to hook up the computers?

Just kidding around
--

smartBridges Customer Support Team
Email: support@smartbridges.com


raindog3

join:2002-10-23
Ireland
reply to Beebe

LOL .... wouldn't it be good though! I'm seriously considering these too. Because I can use 13 channels here I think my tower set-up would be ... 4 APs on channels 1,5,9 & 13 with four 90deg sectors. Might also consider that Maxrad sectorized Omni to start off with. Replace as demand increases and reuse the Omni at another nearby town.


UMD

join:2003-01-09
College Park, MD
reply to Beebe

To one smartBridges access point you can have upto a maximum of 108 devices associating to it.


Beeski
Premium
join:2002-05-11
small island

I understand that technically you can have 108 devices attached, but in the real world how many devices can you have attached before the CPU in the APPO starts to bog down?

30?
40?
50?

What CPU does it use? How much RAM does it have?


SB Tech

join:2002-10-20
Allentown, PA

said by Beeski:
I understand that technically you can have 108 devices attached, but in the real world how many devices can you have attached before the CPU in the APPO starts to bog down?

30?
40?
50?

What CPU does it use? How much RAM does it have?
This is the same point that somebody in the ISP-Forum is trying to make. But I think it is irrelevent information. It is an embedded ARM core with proprietary code running on it. So how can that translate into some type of comparative info?

The important performance benchmarks like throughput and distance can be seen in the CNET review that I just posted on the other thread. »CNET review of airPoint Pro
--

smartBridges Customer Support Team
Email: support@smartbridges.com

Beeski
Premium
join:2002-05-11
small island

said by SB Tech:
But I think it is irrelevent information. It is an embedded ARM core with proprietary code running on it. So how can that translate into some type of comparative info?

Sorry, gotta disagree with you here, I think knowing the max number of CPE's that can connect to an AP is very important information.

Throughput and distance are great measures for a single ptp benchmark. The question is how many different CPE's can attach to an APPO? There are two ways we can go about determining an answer:

1) real world data. Does anyone have more than 30 CPE's simultaneously connected to an APPO? 40? 50?

2) CPU/RAM numbers compared to a Cisco 340, Orinoco AP2000, etc. You bring up an excellent point about your embedded ARM core and its proprietary code. It may be impossible to compare apples to apples, but it would still be nice to know the relative processing power of the embedded ARM core and the amount of RAM available so that we can attempt to compare it to a 486/33 or a Pentium/100.

SB Tech

join:2002-10-20
Allentown, PA

said by Beeski:
Sorry, gotta disagree with you here, I think knowing the max number of CPE's that can connect to an AP is very important information.

Throughput and distance are great measures for a single ptp benchmark. The question is how many different CPE's can attach to an APPO? There are two ways we can go about determining an answer:

1) real world data. Does anyone have more than 30 CPE's simultaneously connected to an APPO? 40? 50?

2) CPU/RAM numbers compared to a Cisco 340, Orinoco AP2000, etc. You bring up an excellent point about your embedded ARM core and its proprietary code. It may be impossible to compare apples to apples, but it would still be nice to know the relative processing power of the embedded ARM core and the amount of RAM available so that we can attempt to compare it to a 486/33 or a Pentium/100.
I agree with you about knowing the number of CPEs. I would like to know that too. I was saying that knowing the CPU and Memory is irrelevant info, not the number of CPEs.

Let me first clarify the CPU part of the question. We have no clue of what CPUs embedded/external, clock rate, memory etc etc are being used by Cisco and Orinoco. I do not think there is enough info available for anybody to put a meaningful comparision based on these parameters. So that is why it is the irrelevant part.

Now for the number of CPE part. There are actually two parts to this. A large association table to allow high number of CPEs to associate is useful for the WISP because not all of them will be simultaneously consuming the bandwidth. This allows the operator to assign more subscribers to an AP. This is when the number 108 comes into the picture. But this is large enough in our case to the point of being theoratical.

The second part is the satisfactory data through put to each associated client. By knowing the design and how things are supposed to work, I do not think that on-the-air data throughput rate changes much due to higher number of associated clients. So let's assume that there is only a slight degradation in on-the-air speed.

But this on-the-air speed still seems to be the limiting factor in real life. This limit will also change almost from AP to AP based on the usage pattern of that specific group of subscribers on that AP. That is why this rule of thumb info needs to come from the field. I have heard of people using our AP with up to 60-70 clients. There may be more but we may not be aware of it.

Hope I did not manage to confuse the issue even more

[text was edited by author 2003-01-11 11:58:25]

Beeski
Premium
join:2002-05-11
small island

Actually, there is enough data to use CPU/RAM to make a relevant comparison of capacity. Here are 2 related threads:
»Subscribers per AP?
»The Real low down on AP's and connection limits!?!

If you are hearing 60-70, that is an impressive number. I am deciding between a SBC Soekris AP running BSD and an off the shelf product such as Smartbridges. I know the CPU and RAM of the single board computer, I also know what cisco, orinoco, and others use(mostly around a 486/33). I was curious what Smartbriges uses.


SB Tech

join:2002-10-20
Allentown, PA

said by Beeski:
Actually, there is enough data to use CPU/RAM to make a relevant comparison of capacity. Here are 2 related threads:
»Subscribers per AP?
»The Real low down on AP's and connection limits!?!

If you are hearing 60-70, that is an impressive number. I am deciding between a SBC Soekris AP running BSD and an off the shelf product such as Smartbridges. I know the CPU and RAM of the single board computer, I also know what cisco, orinoco, and others use(mostly around a 486/33). I was curious what Smartbriges uses.
May be I am too dense. I scanned thru both those threads several times but could not find info on the CPU/RAM.

We have 2 embedded ARM7 cores running at 36MHz, 2x6Kx32 RAM, 2x128 byte FIFO. Perhaps this gives you some info you are looking for?

Well anyway, the important info is the # of associated CPEs and it's impact on the data throughput. I will try to gather that. Now I am curious too. But please don't wait for it because right now I have no idea of how we will go around doing it.
--

smartBridges Customer Support Team
Email: support@smartbridges.com

Beeski
Premium
join:2002-05-11
small island

Thank you for the Smartbridges info.

Here are a few more posts with CPU processing power references:

»Re: Revisited: Subscribers / AP

»CPU Utilization on Orinoco OR products


SB Tech

join:2002-10-20
Allentown, PA

said by Beeski:
Thank you for the Smartbridges info.

Here are a few more posts with CPU processing power references:

»Re: Revisited: Subscribers / AP

»CPU Utilization on Orinoco OR products
Thanks for the pointers. At concept level I agree to the logic being discussed about the CPU processing power. I am having difficulty in conveniencing myself that there is enough information available to anybody to do a meningful product comparision based on this criteria.

CPU architecture differences (ARM=RISC vs 486=CISC)
How many CPUs (we got 2. how many do they have?)
Difference in CPU clock rates
Different Embedded OS
Different program codes
Different product architectures (e.g. WEP encryption in hardware engine vs CPU)
Feature difference (routing function or not)
etc etc

So with so many unknown variables that contribute to the product performance, I do not believe it is possible to make product performance comparision based just on the CPU and Memory. IMHO.
--

smartBridges Customer Support Team
Email: support@smartbridges.com


Beebe

join:2002-10-25
Beebe, AR
reply to Beebe

So if the theoretical limit of subscribers to an airpoint pro is 108, and the practical limit is 30-50 - how would this be effected by subscription speed? I assume I could have a lot more 128k subscribers than 384k subscribers?

Maybe 80 128k customers might work ok?? or 50 384k? Does anyone have any experience with this?