| THIS IS A FACT They did pin the tail on the Donkey here though:
"The technology local government would use would be obsolete in a few years therefore requiring another bond issuance later."
I think the survey was sneaky.
However,
City's are not financially viable enough to keep up with the changing technology of Broaband and it really sucks that more folks don't realize that.
Hell most city's rely upon the ISP to support the product.. (that smack's of the @home days.. been there.. done that.. no thanks)
and how will they get the funding to incorporate the advancing digital needs of video and internet (video on demand, High Def TV,)
And where will the funding come for Larger projects like VoIP or Telephony.. options that companies like Comcast and ATTBB currently employ?
See cable operators can afford to test those products and launch them cause they have such a large subscriber base that it will pay off but city's are smaller and I don't see where this city owned cable company issue can lead but to cheaper prices for the time being..
Cheaper is not BETTER!!
just means less advanced options for customers.
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RedStepChild@dslr.net |
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 batageekSlave To The DuopolyPremium
join:2003-01-25 | WRONG....Read the study.....
The money for upgrades and enhancements are built into the operating costs. They've taken the future into account.
Go back and look
»www.tricitybroadband.com |
|
| Doesn't explain away the facts. In Tacoma, they have their own Cable Tv system which directly competes w/ 2 satelite cable tv systems and ATT/Comcast.
Now this City owned cable tv package REMOVED it's PPV Sports packages due to costs..
If that is an issue.. where will the funds come from to launch HDTV or Video on Demand.. Them box upgrades aren't cheap.
Technology is expensive...
Just like Tacoma's Click network..
It will be cheaper cuase it won't have the technology to launch..
How about the High spead Internet.. The ISP plans charge for the SIMPLEST things like extra email addresses.. ect..
And customers have to buy their own modems.. leasing is not an option..
No I will pay extra for the Opportunity to have the following services available to me.. which the City owned cable system DOESN'T Provide due to costs (which ofcourse was NEVER REALLY discussed when they talked of STARTING the cable service)
City cable systems don't provide:
Sports PPV packages
Dolby digital surround sound
HDTV
Video on Demand
ISP support (gotta go to the ISP)
Local Telephone via Telephony or VOIP
City cable systems can provide cheaper cable BUT the customers of TACOMA have the HIGHEST franchise taxes and HIGHEST power bills (also owned by the city)
And really a city should dable too much in Private business..
Kinda shady to me..
Just stick to running a Franchise agreement that works and enforce it!
Let's not forget who LET those cable providers OPERATE lines in the first place>>>>
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RedStepChild@dslr.net |
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| reply to redstepchild
CITY OWNED .. A NIGHTMARE.... Let's see..
What does Tacoma CITY own?
»www.ci.tacoma.wa.us/tpu/
Power
Water
Cable
Rail
Now that is a MUTHA Ferking monopoly you Can't escape..
You don't have water and power options other than them so maybe that is why they are SO DAMN expensive..
OH AND THE TAXES...
Somebody got to pay for all this stuff...
I don't see the residents getting no kickbacks.. just government living off the pork rinds!
Check out their bugeted TAXES they recieve from the utilities..
Go to the City website and search with "financial" and "budget"
And remember Where the $$ is coming from.
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RedStepChild@dslr.net |
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batageekSlave To The DuopolyPremium
join:2003-01-25 | Again..
Read the study.
FTTH offering cable (HDTV, PPV, VOD), fast internet, and phone. No outsourcing.
Again....PAID FOR ONLY BY USER FEES. IF YOU DON'T TAKE SERVICES, YOU DON'T PAY.
In regards to franchise agreements, with no other cable competition in town except Comcast, they're unenforcable. What, are the cities just going to deny a franchise to the only provider and tell the citizens they're out of luck?
Don't think so and Comcast knows so.... |
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| reply to redstepchild
Pardon me my dear but you're so full it's ridiculous...
I was an @Home customer who got "transitioned" to AT&T and who had the extreme good fortune to finally ditch ATTBI and sign up with Click about a year ago.
I can't address the TV issues because all I get are the basic channels from them - which is enough, I'm not a TV person (it costs $6.87 a month!).
I could care less about having more pay per view channels.
But on the issue of broadband internet, I can comment. I am *extremely* happy with Click. I almost always have a downstream rate in excess of 2,000 kb/s. All for $28 a month! Almost HALF the price of ATT/Comcast, and a third as much more bandwidth. Yeah, that's just a terrible deal!
I haven't looked at the financials for Tacoma Power in a while but last I heard the utility was in the black and going ahead with expansion plans, for Lakewood and University Place.
Just because they aren't a gargantuan behemoth like AT&T doesn't mean they don't have money to provide extra services and offer frills like the big boys.
And the reason for that - which you neglected to mention - the one big difference between Click and all the others, is that Click is a not-for-profit public utility which doesn't have to feed greedy shareholders.
All that's necessary is that a utility break even; unlike Comcast, it isn't expected to pay dividends (and shouldn't - it's public owned!).
I truly think that greedy, monopolistic corporations like Comcast and AT&T are stifling the development of broadband in this country.
The business models these companies use are antiquated; they don't have the intelligence to figure out that they are holding back broadband expansion by trying to wring the last little buck out of their customer base.
If they'd just lower their prices and lift the caps, they'd probably double their customer base in a couple years. And in doing so, they'd encourage the development and use of applications that can only succeed on broadband, like streaming video and VoIP - and that would further encourage wider deployment of broadband.
I thank my lucky stars we have Click in Tacoma. It's the *only* thing keeping AT&T/Comcast reasonably honest in this area - by providing a choice for people in Tacoma and the surrounding area.
Let's face it - if it wasn't for the advent of Click, we'd all still be using 56k modems and surfing 33 channels on TV!
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He who hesitates is lost. |
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| reply to redstepchild
Click Sucks! But unfortunately .. with HDTV coming along.. HOW were you figuring CLick (city owned cable company)
would pay for it HDTV? They don't Have HDTV do they?
********************************************
Sports Packages are not available w/ City owned Cable.
if you did like PPV sports packages you would notice that you only have like 4 options...
And international programming..
not available wth City owned cable
And Tacoma is full of folks that like International programming.
What kind of Alternative international programming is out there but unfortunately CLICK does not provide (c'mon..even Satellite provides some of this stuff!)
»www.internationalchannel.com/pre···etworks/
So I guess for the "Basic" dude.. you got what you want...
But you are not the only person in Tacoma are you.. Lot's of Folks to whom English is not their Primary language.
City owned cable does not provide the Alternative channels they may like.
Big old Comcast does.. they can afford to.
DOBLY DIGITAL is not available in CITY Owned Cable
How about Dolby Digital Dude.. oh that's right.. EXPENSIVE upgrades to current equip that Click can't afford to pay right now.. So you can't get that can you..
but you are just a dude who like's Basic cable..
So city owned cable yet again proves it is GREAT for the here and now but does not have the Subscriber base to support alternative programming and technology upgrades.
How about an internet service that gives you more than 3 email addresses? That's right.. If your ISP through Click has that option..you got to pay extra..
What if you DON'T want to BUY your MODEM.. Is leasing it an issue.. Oh but you have to sign a contract don't ya!
What about if it is 2 am and you internet is down..
Who do you call? Certainly not your ISP through Click.. hours of their Operation are just 8-5pm.. can't afford to have all that extra staffing 24/7 like Comcast can.
FACTs- Harbornet tech support hours
M,T,W,F 9AM-6PM
Th 9AM-5PM
Sat 10AM-4PM
closed Sun.
»port.harbornet.com/html/contact.php
*****************************************************
Pricing.. Hell that is all up to the ISP and what they want to charge for ANYTHING.. even a second trip for a Data outlet..
City owned Click STILL doesn't control that..
And how do you figure cheaper is better?
let's evaluate this...
Most Tacoma Comcast customers are Capped at 1800 down/256 up for 45.95 if they have cable service.
Net-Venture pricing:
»www.net-venture.com/clicksignup/
1MB Family Plan: 1024k download
and 128k upload
5.0mb Web Space
3 POP Mailboxes
Newsgroup Access
Single Computer
(can add up to 4 more)
Email Spam Filtering
Web-Based Email *
$29.95 per mo. (tax incl.)
2MB Family Plan: 2048k download
and 256k upload
5.0mb Web Space
5 POP Mailboxes
Newsgroup Access
5 Computers
Email Spam Filtering
Web-Based Email *
$72.95 per mo. (tax incl.)
(side note.. Notice that you pay harbor net $27 more than Comcast yet only get 248k more a month (SERIOUS JOKE!)
we won't even go into the "family Plan"
And please notice that they are stingy w/ the storage space available.. a measly 5mb..
Comcast at least gives you twice as much per email addy and Webspace..
SO maybe Harbor net is a better value?
Residential option 1
$29.95
$99.00 self-install
1 Mbps downstream (1000)
128 Kbps upstream (1280)
Up to 5 Computers
No Static IP's
Full Backup Dial-up Account
5 mb personal web space
3 email accounts (more avail)
News Server Access
Residential Option 2
$49.00
$99.00 self-install
2 Mbps donwstream
256 Kbps upstream
Up to 5 Computers
1 Static IP avail.
5 Systems On-line
3 email accounts (more avail)
5 mb personal web space
News Server Access
Sir.. you can keep your 29.99 access.. I Surf at least 1700 (1.7 Mpbs) on a regular basis...
I ain't payin no $70 or $99 for jsut a smidgen more...
No thanks!
That is HIGHWAY ROBBERY!.
No way dude.. I say that Click just proved with out a DOUBT that CHEAPER IS NOT BETTER..
It just eliminates your options and removes your value for the $$..
REDSTEPCHILD
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RedStepChild@dslr.net
[text was edited by author 2003-02-26 02:56:40] |
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| reply to batageek
The "Study" "Again....PAID FOR ONLY BY USER FEES. IF YOU DON'T TAKE SERVICES, YOU DON'T PAY." .. said by batageek
-----------------------------------------------------
I would assume that they are talking Comparable prices cause if not enough folks want the "advanced" services you could end up paying more cause you are in the minority...
Can't provide cheaper services to a small amount of folks.. that would drive you in the RED..
So folks that want OPTIONS may end up paying less and getting what they want with a BIGGER CABLE COMPANY..
Please.. show me a LOCAL city owned CABLE company that has Technology uppgrades (high def TV or Dolby home theater access.. Video on demand...)
And Voice over IP and Telephony options.. if it were REALLY that cheap to do and that simple then EVERY cable compny would be doing it but instead it would seem DEPLOYMENT is now at a standstill...
A bit more expensive that the cable companies had hoped for?
Franchise Agreements get NEGOTIATED...
Plain and simple and the city can NEGOTIATE a Strong deal..
the City of Sammish negotiated a deal that get's them the Cheapest rates in the State of Washington yet there is NO Competition out there..
Explain that?
If the Franchise is Revoked.. there is ALWAYS DISH.. and that is Competiton virtually anywhere..
And DISh network is pretty cheap so it is not like it would break pocket books.
Satellite is cheaper and offers more choices than city owned cable.
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RedStepChild@dslr.net |
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Reviews:
 ·Comcast
| that is a bit of a broad statement...you are only focusing on click and using that to say all. I would suggest you research All municipal cable entities and see if your broad statements are true..right now you are not using hte correct facts to support your statements about all municipal cable entities.
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God Blesshttp://www.faithwalk.org |
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| reply to redstepchild
Yeah....redstepchild. You sure are ASSUMING a lot. Have you checked out the pricing scales for services in the Tri-Cities?
I would do your research before you go commenting on things you seem to know nothing about. I think "batageek" has given you links to educate yourself on THIS venture a few times and you seem to ignore the information in favor of spewing your own "knowledge" as you seem to know it. Knowledge about Washington,not the Tri-Cities, which I believe is where we are talking about.
If you did your homework we wouldn't have to keep hearing your long diatribes about what you THINK the Tri-Cities will offer. Quit saying what you think we won't offer and probably not for whatever price, eat your crow, and then get back to us.
-Pussy2 |
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| reply to redstepchild
TRI cities Municipal cable hasn't launched yet. All I see are Proposed statements.
That is NO guarantee...
I WISH I saved the statements Click made on what they wanted to do.
oh and by the WAY your link used CLICK in Tacoma as a reference.
Tacoma, WA n/a 8.3% 32% (refering to penetration rates)
»www.tricitybroadband.com/facts.htm
And the TRI CITIES project "We'll have to have 32.3% of the market in phone, cable, and Internet to break even" (but note they are projecting to have just 34% of the market.... THAT is a very close call to breaking even..
Remember that is 33% of the market.. A LARGE market made of 3 cities.
Who cares if Scottsboro, Alabama has 68% penetration in video.. look at the Market .. 68% is not that many people.
Click doesn't even have 32% of their market and now this CITY municipal is going to be offered in other cities..
CUSTOMER SERVICE:
"five representatives will be fine for TriCity project."
5 folks to answer calls.. OMG!
Now what about the internet.. who will be the ISP?
Will those "5" people support all 3 lines of business?
Man.. I read that link so many times.. just answer these questions by posting links to this website where these answers are addressed.
Technology upgrades.
Where will the money come from to enable technology upgrades such as High Def TV, Dolby home theatre, Sports PPV Packages, Video on Demand?
Sounds like they are offering a "cheaper" cable package with less options.
I STILL have yet to see where this is disputed..
I read the "projected data" and "Just the Facts"
Sounds impressive till you look at an area that has "city owned cable" and you see what those residents are missing out on.
Oh and by the way.. the Real motivation here for them is this.. Business. They want to get the BUSINESS are wired with internet and ate going to subsidize it with Residential cable..
Yes that does bring business but at least make it clear that this is the MAJOR motivation.
How about Internet ISP's.. are they going to have some other ISP company supply that?
The whole webpage is vague but comparing their plan to what they intend on doing (similiar to Tacoma City's Click Model)
then my statements and opinions stay the same as before.
So when you all can point the finger to a LINK in your webpage that shows how they REALLY will be handling the services rather than the Great prices..
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RedStepChild@dslr.net |
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batageekSlave To The DuopolyPremium
join:2003-01-25 | reply to redstepchild
Re: TRI cities Municipal cable hasn't launched yet. Guarantee? Who guarantees a business? GM shares will never drop. Telco shares will never drop?
Give me a break.
Let's clarify on those penetration numbers:
For Geneva to go it alone (from »66.92.136.59/facts.htm )
34% on video alone
13.2 % on internet
7.5% on phone
These are projected, not break even numbers.
Customer service (phone only no field):
Comcast serves the entire Chicagoland area with (ready) 400 reps. 400 reps for what 5 million people? I think 5 will work fine for a population of 70,000 (if that, if everyone take services).
Video upgrades:
First of all, FTTH not some antiquated HFC system.
Second, (again read the study). Money is built into the costs yearly for continuing maint, unlike the history of AT&T's model. They expect to offer VOD, HDTV, PPV. It's all in the model.
The Utility will be its own Cable, Phone and ISP. No outsourcing. One Utility, 50 plus people serve a small region.
Read the City sites linked to TriCityBroadband.com
They make no bones about the fact that this will draw new business, benefit the citizens in both technology and tax rates, as well as benefitting the existing utilities (electric, water, etc.)
Again, do yourself a favor ......READ! Get informed. Rip the feasibility study apart (all 750 pages). Read the responses to both citizen and business surveys.
Read about the fact that the original study has been checked by another competing firm that concurs with the findings of the first firm. Read the existing FAQ's on the City sites.
READ. READ. READ. READ.
Barring that, I'm sensing a telco or cable employee.... |
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| I did read! I read read read and I see see see nothing that says "FEASABILTY STATEMENT"
Can you provide the link so I can read it? Might answer some of the Questions I have.
Cable employee or not does not change the fact that a Video company should provide services that meet needs of it's customers and not just that of the Majority.
I want to see how they are going to see how they plan on launching those "alternative" options and hopefully the feasibility study can provide the answers I seek.
I keep hearing how everybody refers to the fact that the info is "somewhere" yet no one can link to the documnet and paste the specific text here.. The "it's in there" idea don't work.. just show me where..
And I have yet to see a City cable company offering the TECHNOLOGY services they promised to keep up with..
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RedStepChild@dslr.net |
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| reply to redstepchild
I found those FAQ on the feasability statement but I still want to see the actual report.
"#23. How technologically advanced would the municipal infrastructure be? Would it need to be upgraded 5 years down the line and end up costing more each year?--
--------------
The municipal broadband utility would utilize the most current technology to run fiber-optic cable directly to homes and businesses. The Fiber-to-the-Home/Fiber-to-the-Business (FTTH/FTTB) model ensures that new technology on the horizon (HDTV, streaming video, videoconferencing, etc.) would be available and accessible to every home from the time the infrastructure is built. These new technologies are expected to become more popular during the next several years. It is expected the FTTH/FTTB system will serve users well for in excess of 30 years. Our business plan provides for upgrades and maintenance as a cost of doing business."
»www.ci.st-charles.il.us/Broadban···inancial
I am assuming that this means that they are promising the HDTV and other alternative channels..
I say print this out and keep those FAQ.. see if when the project is all done.. what do you end up with.
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RedStepChild@dslr.net |
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| reply to redstepchild
Re: I did read! Funny- I agree with you about the fact a cable company should provide services that meet the needs of it's customers.
That's exactly why, in part, the Tri-Cities have taken on this venture themselves. Customers (residential and business) begged for services. AT&T (now Comcast)had refused to give the customers what they wanted. AND the rates for services kept going up (and were just raised again last week without notification). Promises for new services went on for over 6 years. Comcast has yet to meet the needs of it's customers HERE and we deserve a choice. BTW-SBC has been just as bad at making promises it hasn't kept.
Customers surveyed here said they would like to see the govt. offer cable, internet and phone (74% in favor). Residents seem to want this choice here. They have read the material. They have been mistreated by the monopolies which exist and are now being exposed to the ugliness of push polls and negative surveys....even fraudulent surveys. I can see why our residents really do not want to be involved with companies who treat their customers like this. Can't you?
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| You make a compelling argument. I do agree that if the customers are not getting choices they want then they deserve to get it elsewhere..
But then there's always the option of Satellite.
Starting a cable company is difficult.. maintaining one is difficult.. The city has to make ends meet.. there is a lot vested in a project like this..
high speed access I understand the need for it. Especially if a City wants to be viable for Business prospects.
there are benefits to a having Highspeed access and the cable choices you want.
2 years ago virtually no one in my area had high speed internet options.. now it is available almost everywhere.. some things take time..
building a cable system will take time.. but that is your descision.. just make sure the negatives and positives are clearly stated and not "fogged" over..
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RedStepChild@dslr.net |
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| said by redstepchild:
I do agree that if the customers are not getting choices they want then they deserve to get it elsewhere..
But then there's always the option of Satellite.
Starting a cable company is difficult.. maintaining one is difficult.. The city has to make ends meet.. there is a lot vested in a project like this..
Oh and Comcast is the only provider in the world able to offer those services and make ends meet and maintain it.Get real.You have a serious issue with accepting the fact that your employer,AT&T / Comcast, isn't meeting the customers needs.Us customers are sick and tired of the service and we voted for the City to take control and offer us decent services.What part of that do you not want to understand?
Click! and any other city can do the same thing.You're just afraid of the competition.Face it.
high speed access I understand the need for it. Especially if a City wants to be viable for Business prospects.
there are benefits to a having Highspeed access and the cable choices you want.
2 years ago virtually no one in my area had high speed internet options.. now it is available almost everywhere.. some things take time..
building a cable system will take time.. but that is your descision.. just make sure the negatives and positives are clearly stated and not "fogged" over..
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I am becalmed, lost to nothingWarm weather and a holocaustLeft to die by two good friendsAbandoned me and put to sleepLeft to die by two good friendsTears of god flow as I bleedSo ladies fish and gentlemenHere's my angled dream |
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| reply to redstepchild
A 3rd party REPORT .. MUST READ IT ALL!! All I can say is this 3rd party report says EVERYTHING that needs to be said about City owned cable companies like "CLICK" and it examines the PROJECT RESULTS with what really is happening.
»www.pff.org/publications/pop9.7g···lick.pdf
Read that and then tell me how this report could be biased..
HTML version from the Washington Policy Organization
»www.washingtonpolicy.org/ConOutP···ork.html
The Click! Network is a prominent example of an ongoing trend. Other municipalities have also expressed interest in moving into the telecommunications business. Local leaders across the state are watching and weighing the Click! Network's performance. If deemed a success, the system will serve as a model for others who may decide to embark on the same path.
This Policy Brief presents an in-depth analysis of where the Click! Network stands today. It compares the promises made when the system started with its actual performance since 1997. The study assesses whether it is effective or desirable for public entities to enter this business and compete directly against existing telecommunications providers. It also assesses the impact of the Click! Network on Tacoma ratepayers and the system's prospects if it continues on its present course. Finally, the study presents policy recommendations about how the system can be improved.
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RedStepChild@dslr.net
[text was edited by author 2003-03-02 05:07:42] |
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