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Icarus
CHAOS RULES
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join:2000-11-08
Off Center
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2 recommendations

FP Open Board Meetings

said by MstrBlstr0:
said by Icarus:
Im continually reminded having read the last minutes that this is more a "Good ol boys" network than a democracy.
Care to elaborate on this?

Sure....5 people making the decisions for 20 behind closed doors,the "minutes" of the meeting being generic at best. How do you expect people to garner interest when decisions are made behind closed doors? Steve,you,yourself said you felt the board meetings should be made public,yet you voted against them being so...care to explain?
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[text was edited by moderator]


woogie
Mrs. Wafen
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Maplewood MN
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Re: [FP] Foldy2 Operator - Call For Self-Nominatio

said by Icarus:
Steve,you,yourself said you felt the board meetings should be made public,yet you voted against them being so...care to explain?

What he said.
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Axilla
Finger, Finger
Premium,MVM,Ex-Mod 2004-13
join:2001-03-26
Schofield, WI

2 recommendations

i have the same question as well, even sent MB an IM last night that i havent seen any reply to, i would expect a board member to at least acknowledge that they read my IM.
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Gargoyle
Premium,MVM,ExMod 2004-07
join:2000-12-29
Planet X
reply to Icarus
You are dead wrong Ick. All decisions were recorded in my minutes accurately. I think you and woogs are just pissed off because you didn't get your exact personal wants fulfilled. For every member that has taken the time to either post in DCSP or IM me on open board meetings there are an equal number that have said they do not want that and they trust who they elected to represent them. The board is trying to represent *all* the members.

I do encourage input on all FP topics ... but you have taken this thread off topic and tarnished it.
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Axilla
Finger, Finger
Premium,MVM,Ex-Mod 2004-13
join:2001-03-26
Schofield, WI

1 recommendation

well if these members have another viewpoint i would love to see them post on the subject and make an attempt to persuade us.
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MstrBlstr0
Premium
join:2001-07-14
Corpus Christi, TX
reply to Icarus
Ok, to clarify this... I personally DO NOT care if the meetings are made public or not. There is NOTHING I say in there that I will not say here, you know me better than that. I have never had a problem expressing myself anywhere. Sometimes even so to the point that when I am mad I say things that I do not mean and would never in a million years even dream of doing.

I even have taken very elaborate and time consuming steps to make it possible for anyone that wished to observe could do so. And I will continue to do so..

However, there is a point of principle here. If a board was not wanted or trusted(and certainly was not my idea), then why was one elected in the first place.

A board is exactly that... They take care of the mundane day to day executive decisions that the general population need not concern themselves with, and then report their findings or decisions in a summarized format.

Then the community can discuss said procedures and decisions and voice opinions and such. Things are not written in stone here and can always be brought up for changes and revisions.

As, I said I am not against opening board meetings to the public for observation, but if this is the case then what is the purpose of the board at all?

Everything could be done here, but this is not the proper format to do such things as it tends to be rather slow and would take many hours to do so here... Our last board meeting went over 2 hours... Can you imagine how long it would take here with just anyone and everyone posting.

I feel that it would be fine to open the meetings or say have pre meetings, but if we are to have a board they will still need to go into executive sessions just as the MOD's and DC Exec's do here.

We are all a part of this community, no? We all do our part to help and keep it going, right? Do we ask Justin to open these rooms to the public? No, as it would be ludicrous to do so.

My decision was based on an either or senario...

1. We opened ALL meetings to the public

or

2. We did not open any of them.

My original feeling(and still is) that we should have pre meetings open to discuss the agenda and what is going on and what needs to be decided on, get input from ALL the members and potential members. Then at this point the board would go into executive session and take care of what needed to be taken care of there.

I think GarG does a fine job of summarizing the meeting in the minutes, but I am not opposed to the idea of having the logs posted other than in a 2 hour meeting the logs can get VERY long and I am not sure everyone that reads them would understand at all times what it was that people were trying to get across in the discussions that ensue in the meetings.

This flat medium can be very misleading in the way that people mean things they say... There is no inflection in the tone of voice to know if someone is serious or kidding, there is no facial expressions to know what mood someone might be in at the time they make a comment. With this I feel that entire meeting logs would be misunderstood by some at certain points and times in the meetings.

My vote was NO, because the other option was not given. I am sorry if this offended anyone in any way, but this was what my decision was based on and nothing else.

Now, if I have not made myself clear here or this needs further discussion, then please lets continue this, but in a separate thread or IM.
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Axilla
Finger, Finger
Premium,MVM,Ex-Mod 2004-13
join:2001-03-26
Schofield, WI
i dont think anyone intends to imply that they dont trust the board, and I for one wouldnt watch i meeting just to find some minor quip to harp on, its more a matter that this is brand new to all of us, im sure some people arent entirely sure they elected the right people as im sure some people are sure they should have been elected, but either way an open meeting helps the members trust their board by (if they so choose) being able to see them make sound and reasonable decisions, and the board members will be able to show that they are indeed the right person for the job by way of their actions.

the more i debate this the more it seems like a trivial point it really shouldnt matter that the meeting are open to the public, keeping it private only makes it seem like there is something to hide.
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Icarus
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reply to Gargoyle
said by Gargoyle:
Y
I do encourage input on all FP topics ... but you have taken this thread off topic and tarnished it.

A board member makes a statement and I ask a question and thats off topic? Well,EXCUSE ME!
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Gargoyle
Premium,MVM,ExMod 2004-07
join:2000-12-29
Planet X
said by Icarus:
said by Gargoyle:
I do encourage input on all FP topics ... but you have taken this thread off topic and tarnished it.

A board member makes a statement and I ask a question and thats off topic? Well,EXCUSE ME!

You are excused. But you also ignored my post ("If you want to debate this, then please open a new thread") that was made 10 minutes before your question. As I said before, the whole discussion of "open board meetings" is off topic in this thread. I have asked sorto to split this thread out so the debate can go on but not hijack this thread.
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Gargoyle
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Planet X
Thanks sorto/fishie for the new thread.

Can we please get other members views on this posted in here?

On a side note: I would think that if 6 other members (that would be 9 or 1/3 of the membership) really want open board meetings and say so here, then I could bring this to a full membership vote that would override the two board votes I have conducted on this topic already.
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SueN
Premium
join:2000-08-22
Lost
reply to Axilla
said by Axilla:
well if these members have another viewpoint i would love to see them post on the subject and make an attempt to persuade us.

I asked for input and received it here.
I posted that I was not for open Board meetings, and the reasons why. Several ppl disagreed, and several agreed. I have always made my positions known, and the reasons why.
There are Board meetings or Committee meetings that are open to the public.
There are just as many that are not. Our Board meeting topics have been posted day's before any meeting. That is where and when I think the discussion should be.
It was IM'd to me that members haven't been asked to do much.
We have just started this project, Garg has posted Board meeting topics, leaving them open for discussion. I started that post "Any Suggestions". It sat there dead in the water until I IM'd some FP members to please respond [if they so chose]. What else is there to do but hear the wants of members. Put together a list, trying to include all wants and desires. Then post the topics to be discussed at a board meeting, asking for further input to be included in that meeting.
Things have gotten WAY out hand for what I believe to be mostly of a personal nature, that once it was resolved should have been left alone.
This is truly a sad turn of events!!! What started out to be a fun project has turned nasty, and is undeserved, for it seems reasons that at first might have been founded, but later proved to be nothing to worry about, but still some keep pushing it. More importantly using it as a platform for further dissension.
It was also said that some may regret there FP board member vote.
If ppl regret voting me in as 1stVP then post it here and if the consensus is I am not wanted, I will step down!! I tell you my friends, this infighting has gone for me, beyond unpleasant. It has broken my heart!
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Cho Baka
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there
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1 recommendation

reply to Gargoyle
I do not feel it necessary to watch or have the meetings open.

JMHO


Axilla
Finger, Finger
Premium,MVM,Ex-Mod 2004-13
join:2001-03-26
Schofield, WI

1 recommendation

would you like to have that option to watch a meeting sometime though? you may not want to now but in the future is that something that might be a good possibility?
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rfhar
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reply to Icarus

Re: FP Open Board Meetings

I do not feel that it is necessary to have the board meetings open. Publishing the minutes after approval or as directed the board vote is good enough. I trust everybody on the board. Even if I didn't trust everyone on the board I would still not want the log published or the meetings open, too many possible problems. If anything "unusual" happened I am sure we would all know real quick like.
The logs can be stored for future use if it becomes necessary.
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P Ness
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i too thought there would be no problems with the open board meeting, but after some serious thoughts and speaking to memnbers of other boards i belive it would cause more harm then good....

..but i am too getting tired of the infighting.....IF YOU THE FULL FP MEMBERSHIP WANT AN OPEN BOARD MEETING....then i suggest that we call for an open vote and let the majority of the membership decide.....

then end the debate....we really should be out getting new membership, but who wants to be part of a project that does not even trust its own members???? XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX--
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[text was edited by author 2003-03-26 15:51:35]


Axilla
Finger, Finger
Premium,MVM,Ex-Mod 2004-13
join:2001-03-26
Schofield, WI

2 recommendations

and thats why holding open meetings would prove that there is nothing to hide, and foster trust among everyone.
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wafen
Mr woogie
Premium,MVM,Ex-Mod 2006-14
join:2001-02-01
Maplewood MN
kudos:1

3 recommendations

reply to P Ness
said by P Ness:
and yes all of these comments are BECAUSE YOU DO NOT TRUST THE BOARD OR INDIVIDUAL BOARD MEMBERS...so lets not sugar coat the issues...

I disagree Pness,

From the comments I have seen, it isn't that they don't trust us to have closed meetings, it is they think we don't trust them to have open ones.
I may be wrong, but I don't think I am.
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sortofageek
Runs from Clowns
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reply to Icarus
Twice today I have asked our members to refrain from imputing motivation for another individual. We can each only speak for ourselves in that regard. I may think I know what drives another individual, but I can never be certain.

These statements are coming across in a personally insulting manner. Please address all comments to issues. I think TH is capable of discussing differences without stooping to this level.

Mod Edit: My apologies, Icarus. This was a topic reply, meant for all, not directed at you.

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[text was edited by author 2003-03-26 14:04:59]


Pin
Premium
join:2002-06-19
The Dungeon

1 recommendation

reply to Icarus
If I had to lean one way or the other, I would have to lean toward an open ( view only ) type meeting where the board could invite in guest speakers.

Much like a City Council or County Commissioners meeting.
Not because I trust or dis-trust anyone, but because sometimes I like to stick my head in and see what is going on. I generally learn more by what is not said then what is said.

After 2 or 3 meetings, the audience size will dwindle anyway.
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DSmithLady
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join:2002-04-23
Deep South


3 recommendations

reply to Icarus
Evidently, the expectations that people had for and from this project vary greatly. Speaking for myself, I made my donation based on the information supplied about the project's intension. I gave the money because I wanted to...had the project been totally scraped and never even run the first WU, I would have been disappointed, but not mad even if I did not get a refund. I did not give the donation expecting to get anything back.

It never even crossed my mind to worry about meetings and how they were handled. To me, it's like owning stock in a company. Sure you get invited to a stockholders meeting once a year...but does anyone really think that company's don't have board meetings throughout the year? Do you get the log or even the minutes of those meetings? No..but you either trust the people that were elected to run the company or you get out of the company by selling your stock.

I don't understand the purpose of such a heated debate over such a minor issue. Why does it matter if the office holders only post the minutes of the meetings? How is it going to hurt any of y'all one way or another? Maybe someone could explain it to me.

I'm sure some of y'all have read about another DLSR Team that is considering starting a project like this. We surely are setting a bad example for them. Please give this a little more thought and examine your motives.

I'm editing my post to concede that I have been very busy and have not been able to keep up with everything going on here lately. I'm sure that you all have your private reasons for your preferences and it was presumptuous of me to ask anyone to explain to me. I meant no offense.

Just some observations
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[text was edited by author 2003-03-26 16:37:45]


sortofageek
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reply to Icarus
All: One last time, my team mates, please pause, check temper, before hitting that post button. When it becomes aimed at a person, his/her motivation, his/her age level in terms of behavior, not only is insulting, but it tends to detract from any point one might be trying to make.

FP members, I believe you are capable of discussing issues on a higher plane than this. If an opinion different from yours upsets you so much you are willing to fling insults at your team mate, wouldn't it be a good idea to step back and think about what causes such strong feelings?

If your point is valid, it shouldn't require the insults for support. Your point should be able to stand on its own.
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P Ness
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i stand by my original post since i belive it is the reason why this issue remains open and it needed to be discussed but i will edit it.....

as for my stance, i belive closed board meetings are the way to go. Again i will leave it up to the general population and if you want to have open meetings then call a general vote and override the board....
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apprentice9
Premium
join:2001-02-17
Wellington, KS

1 recommendation

reply to Icarus
I think that the meeting should be open IF they can be done in a timely manner. IF not then they should be closed to the public and can be reported to the public after the fact. First off if it is time consuming to do it openly then NO it should not be. Everyone here has a life outside of here and has to tend to it. So why should we tie up 5 people while we get our fill. Just does not make good sence to me. I will trust and help in any way I can. To make this project work. I just want to see a cure.

Apprentice (Chuck)


RPM Jack
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reply to P Ness
I support retaining the option to have at least some part of a board meeting open to the association members; other parts of the meeting could still be held in closed session. There may be special circumstances where the entire board meeting was held in closed session, but hopefully that would not be a regular occurrence. I also support retaining/storing the full board meeting logs as mentioned by rfhar.

I have no plans to run for the board, but "exposing" some of the workings of the board may be beneficial to other people interested in joining the board in the future.

In light of sorto's post, I won't comment on any of the "trust" issues, etc.
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mattmag
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois
kudos:3

7 recommendations

reply to Icarus
I'll just throw in my brief comments and then stay out of the way, however as the "eldest" Moderator of the team forum I hope you add a little extra weight to my thoughts.

I can not for any reason see why those meetings should be closed. There simply is no good reason I can conceive that this project is so sensitive that it requires to be done under a veil of secrecy. It's a simple concept, no reason to "make things sanitary" for the public to view. Just do your business and let it get sorted out later. If someone accidentally cusses, no one should care.

I would recommend that the meetings are open for *observation only* and not allow comments from the floor. This would eliminate any concerns of the Board that opening it up would make the meetings longer. They are volunteers, they need to get things done and move on.

If another member has a concern, they can either post it here later or ask a Board member by IM.

This isn't rocket science folks, it's a forum where a bunch of people get together via a website with no physical interaction at all. It's almost not even real, you know, just "0"'s and "1"'s... Let's not get carried away with emotional response and lose sight of reality.

-Matt


willhemakeit
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Americus, GA

4 recommendations

reply to Icarus
In my opinion and in reading all of the posts on this subject, there was no dissension anywhere on the board until the board meetings were closed. That just doesn't seem like a democracy to me. I am not saying that in the board meeting that everyone has a voice, but that they should have an oppurtunity to observe. I don't know how it makes everyone else feel, but it makes me feel left out in the cold looking in at the other people sitting around the fire...I also don't understand why this program is tearing itself apart about this one issue. I probably wouldn't ever look in on a board meeting, but I would like to know that I could if I wanted to....
I will always vote on having open meetings on any subject.
I alway thought that if you don't want anyone to know what you are saying, don't say it...
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Spectre93
Premium
join:2001-06-07
Wallingford, CT


8 recommendations

reply to Icarus
I vote for open board meetings. In a project where it takes group support to keep it running, an effort by members as well as a committee, I think full open public meetings should be done. I also see no reason why committee members cannot simply discuss amongst themselves things they wish to keep out of the public. Lets be realistic here, we all have private meetings amongst ourselves by IM or email. No one can expect the committee to post EVERY SINGLE message they exchange for all to read. Thats insane. But I do believe that all regular meetings pertaining to the project should be in the open.

I wont rehash an IM I sent out a short time ago, but I will say it is disturbing to drop in here and see so many people who have been friends for so long fighting over all this. This project is supposed to be a FUN project that draws good friends together. If its going to turn friends into enemies and turn people against each other, then count me out. There is enough hatred in the world. Lets relax around here, have a group hug or something, and stop ruining this. There is more to this project than curing diseases. Dont forget the personal elements here.

Spectre

[Edit for clarification]
[text was edited by author 2003-03-26 19:20:57]

coolspot4

join:2002-09-17
Glendale Heights, IL
reply to Icarus
My Vote = No


parkut
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2 recommendations

reply to Icarus
Upon reflection I vote: Open


woogie
Mrs. Wafen
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Maplewood MN
reply to Icarus
I, of course, vote OPEN