All You Can Eat > Bandwidth isn't free

Bandwidth isn't free

So, isn't the 256/3000 caps supposed to keep the network from becoming overloaded? If I were to upload a 40meg file in 20 minutes as opposed to 60 minutes, what puts more burdon on the network? A short burst or a prolonged load. Call me a bandwidth hog I guess. I upload 15-20GB a month but download very little. Then let's consider when posting to newsgroups that only half makes it to the servers. You still get charged for using the useless bandwidth, lol.
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A Ping In Time Saves Nine (9)Ping Pong

Yeah but what if you don't stop after that 40MB files and instead use the same hour to do 120MB.

I am not saying you would, but there are plenty who would, and thats the problem.

Too many don't see speed as a convenience, but instead something to be used to the very last bit constantly.
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»haywardm.com (Hayward's Key West)

reply to Nightfall
It's the "speed" that costs though, not the number of bits transfered across the "speed".

reply to Nightfall
Bandwidth may be less expensive for the big ISPs, but for the medium and smaller guys it is not cheap. To get cheap bandwidth in Los Angeles it is about $100/meg for 30 megs. A DS3 ran 40 miles to a rural area is ~ $5,000 a month. Rackspace in a datacenter in LA to get that cheap bandwidth is about $1,000/month. So were up to $9,000 a month. That is $300/meg.

This is obivously before hardware (which would be at least 50K for servers, routers and related equipment to bring good service to customers) and staffing costs (technical support and operations). If you paid the 50K over 3 or 4 years, that would add at least 1K per month. Tech support will run at least 5K a month for two decent support guys. Operations will cost another 6K at a minimum. Figure you have the office and other overhead of at least 2K. Now we are at $23,000 per month for 30 megs. That's $766/meg. At a 10-to-1 that is $76/meg of cost per user-per-month, with the ability to handle only 300 customers and provide excellent service. To earn a 20% profit margin you would have to charge $91 a user and you would earn $4,500 a month profit.

Now these numbers can clearly be moved around a bit here or there, but the point is that bandwidth and related costs are not cheap - even more so for the smaller guys. If we want to be able to use a meg sustained all the time, we need to realize that it could be costing the ISP over $700 a month for that meg... this is why caps must exist in order for the companies that provide good service to be able to stay in business.

You're talking about a colo environment though, not connectivity.

reply to Hayward
Oh yeah, see I work "kind-of/sort of" for the ISP side of things, being a support tech for a local University. It was not the concerns of the then fledgling RIAA/DMCA that actively made us seek out "Kazaa" "Napster" and "WinMX" users....it was the abusers. These programs have the capability of throttling the available bandwidth to them to more than sane levels. All it took was *one* person using one of these programs without setting a throttle - to destroy the connectivity on a whole floor of Engineering Hall.

The smart kids let it "trickle in" setting like, 1/100th of the available bandwidth for use at a time. You still get it plenty fast, and best of all, you do not lag and knock mission critical services off the air for the entire campus. Smart, considerate, and deliberate use of any technology is the responsibility of us all. It makes lives easier for other users and the administration.;) Mostly in managing the "pipes" and maximizing the use fairly across all users. We do not restrict the amount of "use" any one or group of persons has here on campus, giving them in effect, "All you can eat" - but please do consume in a manner that shows that you have a working brainstem.;)

I do not know how it is out there for the rest of the world, agreed, bandwidth is NOT CHEAP. We have a few OC level lines coming into the place and it is switched all over campus. We are not at all charged on the "byte" like a metered service. What KILLS us is the cost of having *available* bandwidth. We get charged the same if not even one ATM cell routes out of the place, or in. But 6000 students + Faculty/Staff can certainly eat alot. And to provide the best possible service, we have to balance demand against a set width of "pipes" going in and out. That's where the money comes into the picture - and leaves quite quickly too.;)
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Northwest Arkansas' ONLY all techno Internet radio network, powered by SBC DSL!

reply to Nightfall

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In the next couple years, all ISPs will be moving to caps. I am sure a couple ISPs will stay with unlimited. Their success or failure has yet to be determined.

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Bandwidth isn't pennies on the GB but it's not dollars on the megabyte either. All you have to do is look at the pay news services (Easynews, etc) which are more or less in the business of providing raw bandiwdth for a profit. They're able to make money on 6GB for $9/month while maintaining servers, and there are better deals out there.

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reply to wolfox

said by wolfox:

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Oh yeah, see I work "kind-of/sort of" for the ISP side of things, being a support tech for a local University. It was not the concerns of the then fledgling RIAA/DMCA that actively made us seek out "Kazaa" "Napster" and "WinMX" users....it was the abusers. These programs have the capability of throttling the available bandwidth to them to more than sane levels. All it took was *one* person using one of these programs without setting a throttle - to destroy the connectivity on a whole floor of Engineering Hall.

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The smart kids let it "trickle in" setting like, 1/100th of the available bandwidth for use at a time. You still get it plenty fast, and best of all, you do not lag and knock mission critical services off the air for the entire campus. Smart, considerate, and deliberate use of any technology is the responsibility of us all. It makes lives easier for other users and the administration.;) Mostly in managing the "pipes" and maximizing the use fairly across all users. We do not restrict the amount of "use" any one or group of persons has here on campus, giving them in effect, "All you can eat" - but please do consume in a manner that shows that you have a working brainstem.;)

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I do not know how it is out there for the rest of the world, agreed, bandwidth is NOT CHEAP. We have a few OC level lines coming into the place and it is switched all over campus. We are not at all charged on the "byte" like a metered service. What KILLS us is the cost of having *available* bandwidth. We get charged the same if not even one ATM cell routes out of the place, or in. But 6000 students + Faculty/Staff can certainly eat alot. And to provide the best possible service, we have to balance demand against a set width of "pipes" going in and out. That's where the money comes into the picture - and leaves quite quickly too.;)

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reply to JakCrow

said by JakCrow:

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You're talking about a colo environment though, not connectivity.

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reply to localisp-guy
Using your numbers I came up with about 3 cents per gig transfered if the line is kept saturated.This is why it makes no sense to me to cap overall data transfer.Just throttle during peak hours and let the hardcore downloaders have the off peak time.Also remember all data transfer is paid for twice. Someone paid to upload the stuff.

reply to Hayward

said by Hayward:

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said by JakCrow:

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You're talking about a colo environment though, not connectivity.

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And what good is connectivity if its not connected to anything???

More traffic means bigger pipes, bigger servers, more rack space, etc.

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reply to Nightfall
Please tell me why you think bandwidth is becoming more expensive, even as technical advances are made and fatter pipes are opened up all the time. I still haven't received a satisfactory answer to this question, just vague mumblings about bandwidth hogs, pirates, and theft of service.

reply to Nightfall

said by Nightfall:

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The days of the unlimited internet are over. I could see this problem coming up over six years ago. Today, it doesn't suprise me at all.

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reply to Rhobite
Bandwidth isn't getting more expensive. It's getting cheaper. What's getting more expensive is the poor business decisions that the companies involved have made, and they need to cover their costly mistakes by gouging their customers.

In Korean and Japan, you can get 10 to 20Mbp residential connectivity for the same effective price of the 3Mbp cable connections in the U.S. Hell, there are places in Japan you can get 100Mbp connections to your home now.

Bandwidth getting more expensive my ass....
[text was edited by author 2003-04-09 03:03:35]

reply to Nightfall
Thats a very good question to those people that keep saying bandwidth is expensive.

I want to see some numbers from them. I can provide some myself. This is here in Columbus, Ohio. Your area may be different.

Dual T-1 with an entire Class C IP range : $2,800/month.( have to double check that to make sure the price didn't go down )

Upgrade that Dual T-1 to a T-3 with the same Class C IP range: $8,800/month.

Thats 15 times the bandwidth for just over 3 times the price. I imagine its only going to get better the more bandwidth you buy.

Where are everyone elses numbers that claim to be working for ISPs? Come on. Back up your story with some factual costs.

Bit caps are not the answer and we already have speed caps. Speed caps are much easier to deal with than bit caps from the customer side. I dont want to be forced to keep track of how much bandwidth I use nor worry about how much its going to cost per mbyte.

I dont want to see ISPs turn into the cell phone companies.
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Do you SetiAtHome

The bandwidth is just part of the equation. Look at the cost of experienced personel. No one wants to have idiots working on the network infastructure. Technical support is one area most ISPs are cutting back in.

We can look at your dual T1 example. $2,800 per month plus personel to admin it, plus equipment that depreciates over 4-5 years (that is being generous), and so on. That is a heck of a lot more expensive than $45 a month that people pay.

The true cost of bandwidth has yet to be determined. I know I would like to know this, but no one has stepped forward with legitimate and factual figures. I know that ISPs get the bandwidth a lot cheaper, but no one knows how much. You can say the price is going to get better the more you buy, but that is just speculation.

Myself and others here think that the providers themselves keep the price high so when companies buy bandwidth from them, they turn a big profit. However, that is all just guessing. No one knows how much it costs to keep the internet running.

Anyone an internet accountant?
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My Domain
Nightfall's Hockey and Life Journal

And don't forget that those dual T1's that cost you $2800/month can be saturated by just 3-4 people running Kazaa 24x7.

said by DSL987:

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And don't forget that those dual T1's that cost you $2800/month can be saturated by just 3-4 people running Kazaa 24x7.

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