Very nice of them! in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r7504944 en Mon, 30 Nov 2009 10:32:47 EDT Mon, 30 Nov 2009 10:32:47 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7578663 TheMadSwede :
said by Kaltes See Profile:
No swede what YOU are doing is taking my language and stretching it to an absurd extreme. No one ever claimed "the cultured, mature, museum folks" were saints, only that they would be a bit more likely to give anonymous donations than a young teenager.

If you don't believe that there is such a thing as 'maturity' and that older persons have more of it on average than younger persons, then I don't know what to tell you. Maturity is not the same as morality.

Of course ultimately everyone is 'selfish' but this is not a white/black issue, it is a spectrum, with some people being blatantly selfish in a way that harms others, some dedicating their lives to helping others and living in poverty because it makes them feel like a good person, and everything in between.

You cannot apply your black and white outlook to something as complex and spectrum-based as someone's degree of consideration for others. If you try (and you did) you arrive at absurd conclusions such as trying to twist my language into a good versus evil morality debate.


Slow down there. No need to yell "YOU" at anyone. And my black and white outlook? Read your first post, Kaltes. Did you paint any group with a broad brush? With your statements, did you perhaps make something a bit more black and white than it actually is?

I did not equate maturity to morality. You did by linking maturity with selflessness (a moral issue), and that's the issue I have with your statements. You stated:

but this is just a maturity issue that will change with time as they grow up and become less self-centered. (italics mine)

This is simply not true.

I have no argument with the fact that gaining more experience (which includes just getting older) creates more maturity. I just disagree with the statement you made above that equates maturity with selflessness.
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Cable Cable Cable...keep that cable rolling.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7578663 Sun, 03 Aug 2003 19:33:04 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7576970 Kaltes : No swede what YOU are doing is taking my language and stretching it to an absurd extreme. No one ever claimed "the cultured, mature, museum folks" were saints, only that they would be a bit more likely to give anonymous donations than a young teenager.

If you don't believe that there is such a thing as 'maturity' and that older persons have more of it on average than younger persons, then I don't know what to tell you. Maturity is not the same as morality.

Of course ultimately everyone is 'selfish' but this is not a white/black issue, it is a spectrum, with some people being blatantly selfish in a way that harms others, some dedicating their lives to helping others and living in poverty because it makes them feel like a good person, and everything in between.

You cannot apply your black and white outlook to something as complex and spectrum-based as someone's degree of consideration for others. If you try (and you did) you arrive at absurd conclusions such as trying to twist my language into a good versus evil morality debate.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7576970 Sun, 03 Aug 2003 15:13:23 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7572607 TheMadSwede : Sure getting older makes people less self-centered. Whatever. That's ridiculous. People are people, regardless of their age, which means they are all self-centered. The only thing that age is guaranteed to bring is experience, which can be a good thing...or a bad thing.

You see, you're coming too close to equating age to morality, which doesn't work. So, 13-year-old Danny steals music off the internet. And 57-year-old Daniel lays off 600 workers and keeps an 8-digit bonus for himself, and gives the museum a hundred thousand dollars.
Both are self-centered.

But hurray for the cultured, mature, museum folks. Ridiculous.
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Cable Cable Cable...keep that cable rolling.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7572607 Sat, 02 Aug 2003 22:33:08 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7570678 Kaltes : consider it buried

as for people having honor, I think the more correct way to put it is: maturity.

anyone ever see that simpsons episode where Homer takes Lisa to the museum, and Homer sees that entry is not fee based but donations are encouraged, so he laughs and tells everyone that comes "Hey! You don't HAVE to pay!" Of course a more respectable character shows up next and pays double to make up for Homer.

you see, the crowd that goes to museums don't have to be forced to pay. I think people who like classical instrumental music are a bit more like the museum crowd than the stereotypical p2p crowd. (basically they're just older)

Sure some 13 year olds might be a fan of someone yet they still refuse to pay for anything unless absolutely required to, but this is just a maturity issue that will change with time as they grow up and become less self-centered.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7570678 Sat, 02 Aug 2003 17:43:38 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7570491 pianotech : Kaltes,

I admit I took a very militant stance and most likely irritated a bunch of people. Look, I learned a lot of things in the process and can admit where and when I was wrong. I still have reservations, and still don't think much of people who are in it solely for themselves, but many people share that more reasonable view. Yeah, we locked horns..:) Water under the bridge, dontcha think? I'm willing to bury the past if you are. :)
And yes, I agree with what you said about PayPal, etc.. but right now it's really my best option until something better comes along. Merchant accounts are expensive, and I can't possibly justify it just yet. FWIW, I earned $1.50 today that I didn't earn yesterday. :)

Ravital,

Thanks, man...hey, the old way sure wasn't working, so trying something new is in order. As I said, we'll see what happens. Never know unless you try!
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Independent Composer & Pianist.
[text was edited by author 2003-08-02 17:26:19]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7570491 Sat, 02 Aug 2003 17:15:25 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7570142 ravital :
said by pianotech See Profile:
Honor system based on the trust that people who are not treated like criminals (DRM, etc) will do the right thing.
Pianotech, you are a very brave soul. I wish you good luck with this.

I'll wager you stand a better chance if you put a note on it identifying yourself as an independent with an independent (or non-RIAA affiliated) label.

I would love to see what results you get from that log, but of course that would be your private business, so whether you choose to share that info with anyone here or privately is entirely your privilege.

If nothing else you deserve respect for trying something that may change (or not) your outlook completely.

With that said, I don't want to predict gloom and doom, but in the end, you know that there are far too many people out there without honor (well, that sounds better in the original Klingon). Maybe more accurately, too young to know what honor is. They'll learn.

Best of luck and warmest regards]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7570142 Sat, 02 Aug 2003 16:23:26 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7569477 Kaltes : ""Server logs will show me an accurate downloads to donations ratio, and I'll see how it works out.""

- Make sure you make it easy for them to donate. While many people might be more than happy enough to donate, they definately won't want to go through the hassle of singing up for new services or handing over credit card numbers just to donate 50 cents. Paypal is a good easy way to pay, but not everyone has an account there. This is why micropayments, which have been touted as a way to save web-based companies (especially all the ones that went under after the dot com bust) does not really work in practice. You would need a button that let everyone donate quickly and easily with very low transaction costs in time and money. Sadly that does not exist, though paypal comes close as long as the bulk of your audience members actually have paypal accounts.

If you used paypal for example, the true donation percentage would not be (donations/downloads) it would be (donations/unique downloads who have a paypal account). You might be able to ask a simple "Do you have a paypal account? yes/no" in the form of a poll when someone clicks to download, which could give you more accurate numbers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7569477 Sat, 02 Aug 2003 14:43:56 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7569425 Kaltes : Pianotech, I hardly regard everyone who disagrees with me as a troll, but I have to wonder what you were thinking when you posted this:

»Anyone mind if I steal your stuff?

I mean, that type of post does little but inflame people and provoke them to flame you. That is the very definition of trolling. I have been reasonable with you in posts for quite a while. In this topic I was a little harsh because at first glance I thought you were up to your old tricks, though I am pleasantly suprised that you have left that behind and are willing to look at the subject with an open mind.

""it happens and is not at all unusual.""

Once people are a zealously committed to one side as you once appeared to be, it is in fact an extraordinarily rare occurance to see someone actually look at the issue with an open mind. I think early on you just thought the BBR boards were full of rabid p2p fans, and after posting for a while you saw that quite a few reasonable people disagreed with you without conforming to the rabid selfish screw-the-artist-and-his-little-dog-too attitude that you probably thought everyone here had when you first started posting. ;)

Personally, for me, it is an issue of bargaining power. If you let copyright holders have absolute control over their works, they can hide the ball from consumers, either not allowing people to preview their music or only offering up the best few tracks to sell their CD. MANY people go out and buy CDs based on hearing 1 hit song that is on the radio all the time, then say "gee all the other songs on here suck, what a waste of money this was" but it is too late: no returns. IMHO the music industry gets a HUGE amount of money by tapping into compulsive buying and getting people to lay down cold cash when they don't really know whether they like a particular group or not. The result is innumerable CDs which are bought, listened to briefly, then retired to the massive CD case and never touched again. That is not economically efficient. I would much rather CDs be close to free, used as a promotional tool to aquire fans rather than as a dedicated revenue stream. As for actually making the money, once you aquire fans you need to give them what they want: merchandise and concerts if possible. Once the music industry is supported by fans once again instead of fickle consumers with more money than they know what to do with (who are in short supply anyway given the current economy), you will see the emphasis of success shifting from marketing power (all those ads that hype up the CD so fickle consumers buy it) to actual quality music.

Look at all the 1 hit wonders within the last 10 years, that just shows you that everyone got tricked into buying the groups 1st CD, but didnt like them enough to even think about buying CD #2. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me......

Donations might work, but what you really need is the business savvy to capture all that cash your fans want to pay you. Once you rely on fan money instead of cash from the aloof masses, you can go about putting in effort to create fans. Perhaps an online web-based membership service where fans pay a monthly or annual fee in exchange for exclusive (or just see-before-everyone-else) content? Merchandise is always good too, especially if you choose the right items to cater to your audience. Tshirts are a good catch-all to start out with. Many other web-based businesses, like homestarrunner.com, have become popular by providing free content, then offering merchandise so their fans can provide the revenue stream.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7569425 Sat, 02 Aug 2003 14:35:37 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7567945 pianotech : Kaltes,

Not everyone who disagrees with you is a troll, and not every opinion that differs from yours is unjustified. Nuff said.

Everyone else,

Because of the efforts of people like Fireside, Transmaster, Ravital, and numerous others who know who they are, I have done a 180 in many of my previous ideas about p2p. People can and do change their mind...call it intellectual growth, evolution, or simply changing one's mind, it happens and is not at all unusual.

So off I go on a new tack...releasing music digitally directly to the consumer in mp3 format, along with a donation button and request for .50/song if someone chooses to keep the song(s). Honor system based on the trust that people who are not treated like criminals (DRM, etc) will do the right thing. Server logs will show me an accurate downloads to donations ratio, and I'll see how it works out. :)

Sincere thanks to all who are capable of debating civilly. :)


--
Independent Composer & Pianist.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7567945 Sat, 02 Aug 2003 08:52:27 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7567518 Kaltes : ""On the contrary. I have vigorously debated with 'Tech regarding this issue""

- No offense but you know even less than he does when it comes to copyright. I am pretty sure I read a post from you claiming that copying that is not for commercial gain is fair use. If you read the statute, that is obviously wrong. If I have you confused with someone else, I apologize.

""see where Pianotech goes with his statements and responses""

- Scarcely a month or two ago he was laying into p2pers as thieves and making such ignorant statements as comparing the downloading of a song online to the theft of bread. He also repeatedly posted using theft/thieves/stealing in lieu of the correct words infringement/infringer/infringing even after having been explained the difference. That left the impression in my mind that he was a troll, and when I saw him popping up again I dealt with him as I would a troll. To be honest I still believe he initially came to troll, and that he has changed in the last 2 months, softening his views towards p2p. My posts earlier in this thread were directed to his earlier troll incarnation, and only later did I go back and look over some past threads to see that his views have indeed changed. He is more reasonable now, though his unjustified convictions regarding p2p run deep and he still has a long way to go. Just recently he swore off BBR boards because he thinks there boards are strongly biased in favor of p2p. Gee, I wonder if it could possibly be true that the crowd here is simply more sophisticated than laypersons who parrot whatever the latest RIAA commercial said. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and people on these boards are just a little bit better at getting through all the BS than average.

""Sure, that might not be enough facts for you to conclude P2P damaged his sales. As a matter of fact I agree.""

- I doubt his sales are high enough or steady enough to provide a reliable baseline from which to measure that his 'sales slipped'. Anyone whose sales are low enough to notice an increase due to activity on the BBR boards is not selling enough to be able to say that their sales 'slipped'.

- Given the chaotic and easily-influenced nature of his sales, one can hardly reasonably draw the conclusion that any dips in sales could be attributed to any one source, unless his buyers were comprised of a community he was in touch with who could be directly asked as to why their buying habits might have changed. The answer could be any one of a hundred things, with the most obvious being "I already have your CD, you mean you want me to buy it twice??" and "I really didn't like it enough to buy it, sorry".

- Finding his music shared online doesn't mean it has been downloaded even once. After all, to find the file you'd have to search for it, and he is not exactly widely-known enough (if at all) to inspire the masses to seek out his works on p2p.

- I strongly doubt that the teen demographic figures prominently among those who purchase his music. The notion that the grubby teen p2per stereotype would be all that interested in his music, especially enough to pay, is not all that believable.

""Where do you see this "selective reasoning"? Where is the logic in your statement?""

- Selectively reasonable means that a person chooses to respond and debate reasonably only to a portion of your arguments/points.

""But Pianotech is the one who experienced it and his views come from that experience. That's more than most anti-P2P users can say around here.""

- This is my very point: pianotech has NO EXPERIENCE OR KNOWLEDGE WHATSOEVER THAT ENABLES HIM TO MAKE CONCLUSIONS BEYOND ANYONE ELSE ON THESE BOARDS. There. You see, he THINKS he sees a relationship between p2p and his success yet does not have one whit of evidence to justify his convictions. Pianotech has nothing new to offer the debate save his own fearful reservations about a technology which he has scape-goated for any possible decline in his sales.

""BTW 'Tech's only real stance regarding P2P is that most people who use it don't support the artist and are only in it for themselves.""

- How would he know? He couldn't possibly know. This is just another one of his unjustified opinions, or 'hunches' in other words. Personally every last person I know who uses p2p has continued to buy music, in many cases seeking out less-well-known bands because they were exposed to music they liked through fleeting exposure, and were then able to identify the music online and download it. Of course if they like the music they become fans, and once they become fans they (like all true fans) want to support the artist(s) and they spend money on everything from CDs to merchandise to concerts. I know of at least 2 simpsons episodes which have caused friends on mine to become fans of some group that had their song played in the background of the episode. What if someone hears his music on that PBS special, and they like it so much they turn to p2p to download it. Of course piano would rather them pay for it all up front after only sapling a small portion of his total work, but what piano doesnt know is that if someone downloads his music and truly likes it enough to become a fan, not only will that person spend money in a show of appreciation, but that newly christened fan will also tell all their friends about how great his music is. Now does this mean that EVERYONE behaves like my friends no? Of course not, clearly SOME people do download music instead of buying it. To believe that consumers are conspiring to screw artists out of fair compensation is both a reflection of a bitterly selfish appraisal of social values, and is contradicted by the weight of what evidence does exist. The real question is: are the sales that are truly lost because of p2p greater in value than the sales that owe their origin to p2p? No one has the answer to that question, just as noone knew for sure whether the VCR would destroy the movie industry.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7567518 Sat, 02 Aug 2003 03:33:19 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7565980 SRFireside :
said by Kaltes See Profile:
since pianotech is only selectively reasonable (i.e. he will debate in good faith only as long as you don't challenge his bias), one cannot attempt to win HIM over in a debate, one can only ridicule his position so that 3rd parties can see its weakness.
On the contrary. I have vigorously debated with 'Tech regarding this issue and know exactly where his reasoning comes from as well as his methods of debate on this issue. Know thy enemy I always say :-). In any case I suggest you go through all the threads on this particular topic and see where Pianotech goes with his statements and responses. Just because you may hit a brick wall with him doesn't mean everybody does.

Flaming (which is essentially what you are talking about) is hardly a valid approach. Spatting insults is more the road someone goes when they can't argue their position in a strong enough way. It's better to take an opponent head on and state your views logically and challenge the views they have that you oppose.

Where do you see this "selective reasoning"? Where is the logic in your statement? You give no examples or make no point to back up your claim. So that statement pretty much is hung out to dry with no support.

As for your comments on 'tech's whole P2P experience keep in mind this is someone who invested a lot of money on a project and saw a few points:

- He found his music being downloaded or shared online. Asked the kid about it and the kid gives an aloof response.

- During that same time, along with maybe some more examples of his music being traded, his CD sales slipped.

Sure, that might not be enough facts for you to conclude P2P damaged his sales. As a matter of fact I agree. But Pianotech is the one who experienced it and his views come from that experience. That's more than most anti-P2P users can say around here. If you were severely beaten up and tormented by a gang of circus clowns don't you think your view of circus clowns would be a lot more dim than the rest of us?

BTW 'Tech's only real stance regarding P2P is that most people who use it don't support the artist and are only in it for themselves. If you have been following the threads you might actually have seen at least a minor change in Pianotech's views. Doesn't sound like being selectively reasonable when someone rethinks their whole stance on P2P.
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Love Science Fiction? www.spacestationzoom.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7565980 Fri, 01 Aug 2003 23:25:46 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7565359 Kaltes : since pianotech is only selectively reasonable (i.e. he will debate in good faith only as long as you don't challenge his bias), one cannot attempt to win HIM over in a debate, one can only ridicule his position so that 3rd parties can see its weakness.

As for the quality of his music, I think it is quite good, though the point I have been trying to hammer in for some time now is that he is not popular enough to have his music copied on any significant level on p2p networks. It does not matter if he finds his songs available sometimes, because that does not mean anyone actually downloads his songs, it just means that the person sharing probably shares all their music, even their *gasp* legally-purchased music.

So his notion that *HE* is getting somehow hit in the pocketbook because of software like kazaa, is simply ludicrous.

Now that several BBR users have paid for his music, he will probably find more of his music on p2p, since those same BBR users will have their music folders shared. Does that mean anyone will copy his songs? Probably not, after all, who would even know his name to be able to search for it?
[text was edited by author 2003-08-01 22:23:15]
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7565359 Fri, 01 Aug 2003 22:03:26 EDT PBS soundtrack http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7553372 Transmaster : I sure hope you have enough written to make for a CD.
The Narada label is one that retails a number of recent
PBS programs.
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low Brass Rules!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7553372 Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:02:27 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7548220 pianotech : Transmaster,

Heh...that kind of stuff doesn't affect me. When someone can't make a point without insulting, or when someone finds it necessary to attack the person behind the post instead of the post itself, I usually ignore it and move on. :)

Thanks for the comments about the music and also for the links, which I will definitely be sending out. In the meantime, the writing for the PBS deal is going well, and I hope to have it complete by mid-September.


--
Music for a rainy day...
[text was edited by author 2003-07-31 07:29:04]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7548220 Thu, 31 Jul 2003 06:52:47 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7547553 Transmaster : RE: Hey piano, it is about time you just admitted that you aren't all that great and stopped blaming your lack of success on everyone else. This is called 'denial'. Get help

What an insult. have you gone to mp3.com and listened to Pianotech efforts. I to am one of those "musicians". I have
listened to the genera Pianotech plays on these MP3 streams
for over 25 years. His stuff is as good as anything available on the Narada, Windimhill, or Hearts of Space labels. Let me let you in on a little secret. Not all types of music have a wide enough audience to attract a lot of sales. Most musician playing in this style do commercial work to pay the bills. Try being a world class euphonium soloist (I wish). You might have a beautiful Boosey & Hawkes instrument, girls swoon when they hear one of your credenzas, but unless you do some else for a living you will be living in a car between concerts.

By the way Painotech have you ever submitted disks to "Music from The Hearts of Space", »www.hos.com/radio.html or "Musical Star Streams" »www.starstreams.com/ - you might be able to get some air time.
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low Brass Rules!
[text was edited by author 2003-07-31 02:25:15]

[text was edited by author 2003-07-31 02:47:14]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7547553 Thu, 31 Jul 2003 02:10:49 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7531323 ravital :
said by petecellar See Profile:
For what it's worth, there is a LOT of Jazz and Classical on P2P.
Well, that's news to me, and I appreciate the tip. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7531323 Tue, 29 Jul 2003 14:02:07 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7530153 TheMadSwede :
said by pianotech See Profile:
I understand what you're saying, but practically speaking, the labels had (still have, in many ways) complete control over distribution. Without them you didn't have a chance. Yes, the artists signed the labels and had to know what they were getting into, but I'm sure there was a decent share of the proverbial carrot-dangling in front of them too. :)


Agreed. It is one of "those things", as they say.

The only reason I said that is because I think it is important that everyone keep a realistic approach to this issue. Too many people just want to bash the RIAA; and while most of it is warranted, some folks just bash because they've grown used to doing it.

Many professions, few so glamorous as musician, place folks in a similar predicament.

For instance, taxi driver. Most major metropolitan areas require "medallions" (licenses) for a cab to be legal in the most congested areas (like Wall Street or 5th ave or Chicago's Loop / Michigan Ave). For a regular sedan, these often cost over $250,000 per vehicle. So while there is no rule preventing an independent operator from having his own cab, every driver pretty much has to join a company in order to be able to afford it. (And in some cases they are then indebted to the company.)

However, in outlying areas, the medallions are often cheaper, allowing an operator to get into the business. They aren't in a high impact area where they can make tons of money on a consistent basis, but at least they get into the business. So they get paid - just not as much as potential might indicate.

Now, I know driving a taxi is different than playing music. And I've simplified the whole licensing process. But it's an interesting comparison.
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Cable Cable Cable...keep that cable rolling.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7530153 Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:44:39 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7522896 anon : I equate the music industry to wrestling. And the RIAA is the management. They are the kings of the promotion and distribution. If they want you to be big, they will market you to be big. Yeah, there is some requirement of the people to accept the bands that they promote. That is why you are seeing so many of these manufactured groups that end up failing. But at first, they are said to be the hottest thing around. People buy into it.

In wrestling, they write out the story to play the emotions of the people. They already know who is going to win, but they market the show as though they don't. It is all about selling the show, even though 80% is fluff without action. And unless you are affiliated with the WWE, you are pretty much a nobody.

Music is very much the same. Market to your target audience. Sell them on the best parts of the album, or concert, or whatever, and hope that too many people aren't disappointed with the rest. And unless you are affiliated with the RIAA, you are pretty much a nobody.

Some artists see the RIAA as their only shot for real fame. And this is why they sign. The RIAA is merely a legal monopoly on the marketing and sales of music.

puritan]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7522896 Mon, 28 Jul 2003 16:42:44 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7522276 pianotech : I understand what you're saying, but practically speaking, the labels had (still have, in many ways) complete control over distribution. Without them you didn't have a chance. Yes, the artists signed the labels and had to know what they were getting into, but I'm sure there was a decent share of the proverbial carrot-dangling in front of them too. :)
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Music for a rainy day...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7522276 Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:38:16 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7522106 TheMadSwede :
said by pianotech See Profile:
Speaking of the RIAA screwing artists, you all know how Buddy Holly was killed in a plane crash...but did you know why he was in the plane in the first place? Because he was broke and had to do the Winter Dance Party to support himself and his new bride. The kicker...he already had a string of top-10 hits, his label had made millions...and he was still broke! So the rest is history...charter a cheap private plane, organize a tour, and blam.

Same with Jim Croce. Though he had two platinum albums and a string of top-10 hits in the 70's, he also was broke. ABC Records had already made millions, but not a cent of it had been distributed to him yet. Same circumstances as with Holly, he put together a tour as cheaply as he could since he couldn't afford better, chartered a cheap, rickety private plane, ...end of Croce.

Just two examples of the recording industry ripping off established, prestigious, profitable acts. There are many more, I'm sure.


I'm definitely not a RIAA fan. But don't blame the lables for creating contracts that benefit only themselves, because a contract needs to be signed by both parties to be valid.

So if someone signs a crappy contract, they should not complain that it's crappy -- because they signed it. If they didn't read what they signed, shame on them. If they read it and liked the potential for a lot of money, but ignored the possible downsides, then double shame on them.

If artists (and I use the term loosely) don't like labels, they should not sign with a label. It's harder to get "screwed over" if you haven't signed on the dotted line for anyone.
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Cable Cable Cable...keep that cable rolling.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7522106 Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:18:38 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7521948 anon : I am still fairly young. I'll be 29 next month. And I do listen to a lot of the popular music that is being pushed these days. And some of it is pretty good, but a lot of it does suck bad.

I played the violin in high school, and developed an appreciation for music. And I listen to all kinds of music. Including country, classical, jazz, techno, rap, r&b, classic rock and roll, etc. I like them all for different reasons.

I also have no problems with paying someone for my appreciation of their efforts. I still buy music CDs, but only for things that I can confirm that I'm not wasting my money on. The latest was an album by Coldplay that has the song from the Spiderman movie on it. And my wife and I will see them in concert the next time they are near. I borrowed the CD from my brother-in-law. Word of mouth is a powerful tool.

BTW - I'm also interested in hearing some of your music SRFireside and PianoTech. I'll be in touch :)

puritan
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7521948 Mon, 28 Jul 2003 14:58:44 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7520401 SRFireside : I believe Rhino Records has secured a lot of classic songs on their catalog and sell CD's for a mess of them. Since each label seems to decide whether or not to release this stuff maybe you should send the suggestion to Rhino. Of all the record labels out there they seem to be more geared towards what their fans want.
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Love Science Fiction? www.spacestationzoom.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7520401 Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:06:31 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7519190 petecellar : [QUOTE]While we're on the topic of "today's youth" and different musical tastes and garbage music and all that, I'm sure there's a few young folks out there who dig Jazz or classical music, but do you think you can find a lot of those kinds of music on an average day on Kazaa or any other P2P network? So if you can't find any Bach or Beethoven or Keith Jarrett or Charlie Mingus on P2P, does that mean they're garbage?
QUOTE]

For what it's worth, there is a LOT of Jazz and Classical on P2P. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7519190 Mon, 28 Jul 2003 09:05:44 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7515359 Transmaster : I too am a musician. I have very little interest in Hip-hop, crap, whoops I mean Rap. What I want to see is catalogues put online, Kay Kaiser, Jackie Gleason, and other of the big band area. The original performances of Doo-whop done by the black bands, not the rip-off white covers. Music that has been buried because of PC considerations, war time music such as Andrew's Sister's "Your a Sap Mr. Jap"
This is what I want. This is what I looked for P2P, stuff which hadn't been published for decades.

The Movie industry fought the VCR tooth and nail but then they found out their vast vaults filled with old movies suddenly where worth a bunch of money. So now you can get such cinematic jewels and "Biker chicks", Nudist Camp on the Moon, "It Came From The Future", Santa Claus defeats the Martians (this my be the worst movie ever made) movies that are so bad, they are a scream to watch.

This is what I want to have in music, access to all the which has been recorded in one format or another, piano rolls, on wax, on wire, on the optical tracks of film in the early 30's. etc. Make it available in a subscription format with unlimited down loads. I am not talking about new releases, I am talking about stuff that hasn't been heard in decades. My tastes in music are very eclectic. I can and do groove out on John Philip Sousa. I have played much of his catalogue with my first love in low brass the Euphonium, or big band music on my second love the Trombone. I love playing and listening to early brass choir music written in Henry VIII's time, playing it with original instrumentation. Is this to much to ask.
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low Brass Rules!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7515359 Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:07:39 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7514865 Transmaster : RE: but musicians make lousy lawyers

No truer words spoken. If a musician's had any knowledge of contract law they wouldn't sign the contracts they do
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low Brass Rules!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7514865 Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:55:59 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7514299 pianotech : I gotta tell ya, you guys are making me rethink..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7514299 Sun, 27 Jul 2003 15:32:00 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7514294 pianotech : Ncc 1701,

Thanks for the listen and for the kind words. :)

Fireside,

Count me in as well...I'd love to hear your stuff. Let me know how to make it happen. :)
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Composer, performer, pianist]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7514294 Sun, 27 Jul 2003 15:31:15 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7514037 SRFireside : Aside from finding the artist name I go under (The Human Race) on KazaA the only other way, and likely best way since I hardly use P2P these days, would be a direct file transfer via AIM, ICQ, email or whatever else is out there. I don't have an ftp server set up. Like I said before I am not heavily promoting so I have no excuse for not making money on my music. I do have a PayPal account though if any music lovers want to contribute :-).

If seriously interested in hearing some stuff send me a private message and we can work out the details.
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Love Science Fiction? www.spacestationzoom.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7514037 Sun, 27 Jul 2003 14:47:30 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7513843 wtansill :
said by SRFireside See Profile:
My bet is people get the data CD's since they are cheaper. Only the ones who don't know the difference would buy the audio blanks.

Yes I am a musician, but don't have an album produced at this time (long story). I do have a mess of work-in-progress songs I have no issues sharing. I suppose you can say it's mostly electronica with some ambient music thrown in. Though I do play around with various other styles of music.
Any possibility of hearing any of it? I just clicked the link on PianoTech's response and wound up at MP3.com. Wife's out of town with the credit card (long story here too ;)), but having sampled the available tracks from "Tranquility", I intend to purchase the CD as soon as I get access to the card. I'd *prefer* to purchase directly if possible though -- I'm one of those Luddites who doesn't much care for online shopping <sigh>
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That which does not kill me merely prolongs the agony.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7513843 Sun, 27 Jul 2003 14:16:29 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7513727 SRFireside : My bet is people get the data CD's since they are cheaper. Only the ones who don't know the difference would buy the audio blanks.

Yes I am a musician, but don't have an album produced at this time (long story). I do have a mess of work-in-progress songs I have no issues sharing. I suppose you can say it's mostly electronica with some ambient music thrown in. Though I do play around with various other styles of music.
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Love Science Fiction? www.spacestationzoom.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7513727 Sun, 27 Jul 2003 13:58:44 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7513568 pianotech : Speaking of the RIAA screwing artists, you all know how Buddy Holly was killed in a plane crash...but did you know why he was in the plane in the first place? Because he was broke and had to do the Winter Dance Party to support himself and his new bride. The kicker...he already had a string of top-10 hits, his label had made millions...and he was still broke! So the rest is history...charter a cheap private plane, organize a tour, and blam.

Same with Jim Croce. Though he had two platinum albums and a string of top-10 hits in the 70's, he also was broke. ABC Records had already made millions, but not a cent of it had been distributed to him yet. Same circumstances as with Holly, he put together a tour as cheaply as he could since he couldn't afford better, chartered a cheap, rickety private plane, ...end of Croce.

Just two examples of the recording industry ripping off established, prestigious, profitable acts. There are many more, I'm sure.
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Composer, performer, pianist]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7513568 Sun, 27 Jul 2003 13:35:53 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7513529 pianotech :
said by SRFireside See Profile:
I am betting that royalty charge on blank audio CD's doesn't go to any artist at all. I bet all of that money goes to the record label's coffers. It would be easy for them to legally keep the money as the artist cannot prove their music was going to be copied on these disks. However the label can say the money is helping the musician through funding the marketing and promotional costs. Of course this is all bunk, but on paper it looks all nice and legal.

So as far as the artist is concerned those blank audio disks do NOTHING to support them.



You are absolutely right, and I highly doubt those so-called "royalties" are distributed to any artists also. The RIAA has a long history of screwing the artists AND the consumer (like the recent price-fixing case that was settled), and that's just another example of it.
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Composer, performer, pianist]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7513529 Sun, 27 Jul 2003 13:30:46 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7513484 wtansill :
said by SRFireside See Profile:
BTW wtansill not all blank CD's have that royalty surcharge. Only blank CD's marked as audio, and I seriously doubt people buy those to back up computer data.
A good point. Frankly, I but the discount CDs 50-100 to a spindle. I've not explicitly checked the see if they were "Audio" CDs or not. That said, I've used them to back up audio CDs for use in my wife's van, the CD player in my machine at work, etc. with no issues. I'm guessing that the public at large does not make the distinction either -- they see a spindle of CDs on the shelf at CompUSA, for instance, and add them to their cart, "Audio" or not...

Regardless of the above -- if you produce music of a genre I like, and it is easily available outside the clutches of the RIAA, I'll certainly consider buying it. You too are a musician, yes?
--
That which does not kill me merely prolongs the agony.
[text was edited by author 2003-07-27 13:27:29]
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7513484 Sun, 27 Jul 2003 13:24:58 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7513403 SRFireside : I am betting that royalty charge on blank audio CD's doesn't go to any artist at all. I bet all of that money goes to the record label's coffers. It would be easy for them to legally keep the money as the artist cannot prove their music was going to be copied on these disks. However the label can say the money is helping the musician through funding the marketing and promotional costs. Of course this is all bunk, but on paper it looks all nice and legal.

So as far as the artist is concerned those blank audio disks do NOTHING to support them.

BTW wtansill not all blank CD's have that royalty surcharge. Only blank CD's marked as audio, and I seriously doubt people buy those to back up computer data.
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Love Science Fiction? www.spacestationzoom.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7513403 Sun, 27 Jul 2003 13:13:05 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7513288 wtansill :
said by pianotech See Profile:
I don't see theft as a one-way venture, I see it as a two-way venture. Labels rip off consumers, and they rip off the artists. Furthermore, the "royalty" on blank cd's is wrong also, because as you said, people who use cdr's for things that have nothing to do with music are paying it. Plus, that is only distributed to major acts who have contracts with major labels (read, the RIAA), not independents like me.

So in consideration of everything I just said, why should I not receive 79-99 cents for a song? I'm independent, have no label, and could care less about the RIAA.
--
Composer, performer, pianist
[text was edited by author 2003-07-27 12:28:32]
Ok, I'll bite. What genre of music do you produce? Where and how is it available? I frequent events such as Celtic festivals, Native American pow-wows, Renaissance Fairs, Irish Pubs (Seamus Kennedy is a favorite) and such, and purchase CDs at those events in direct support of the artists who produced the works. I've also purchased CDs or simply donated money to various street musicians (New Alburado, for instance, creates a blend of Chilean, Andean, and Peruvian music -- I ran into them performing live outside Luray Caverns, of all places!) If you have something I'm interested in and I can find it for purchase, I'll happily support your endeavors in exchange for a chance to enjoy the music. The one thing that these have in common though, is that I'm able to hear the music before I purchase it, so I know what I'm getting and whether I like it in advance.
--
That which does not kill me merely prolongs the agony.
[text was edited by author 2003-07-27 13:00:10]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7513288 Sun, 27 Jul 2003 12:56:28 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7512971 pianotech :
said by wtansill See Profile:
said by pianotech See Profile:
said by The Truth7 See Profile:
sry buddy, i'm a musician too and guess what. Musicians should be paid based on the performance they promote to the consumer.

Single's should cost no more then a buck a piece and they should be readily available for the songs that are popular.



I agree with you 200%. A buck is actually the highest they should be. .75-99 cents would be about right.

That said, the artist deserves that 79-99 cents if the song is downloaded and kept.

I think the CD model has been dead for several years now except for classical works where you have entire symphonies.
So in your estimation that $0.75-$0.99 should go to the artist in addition to the royalties already charged on blank CD media that are there specifically to compensate the artists for supposed losses attributed to downloading? I'm sorry, my argument would be that I've already paid for that privilege via the up-front royalty fee. Additionally, there are many, many folks who never D/L music, and who only use the CDs to back up data, create family photo albums etc. These folks never receive a dime's of value from their royalty contribution. Why is it that you only see "theft" as a one-way venture?


I don't see theft as a one-way venture, I see it as a two-way venture. Labels rip off consumers, and they rip off the artists. Furthermore, the "royalty" on blank cd's is wrong also, because as you said, people who use cdr's for things that have nothing to do with music are paying it. Plus, that is only distributed to major acts who have contracts with major labels (read, the RIAA), not independents like me.

So in consideration of everything I just said, why should I not receive 79-99 cents for a song? I'm independent, have no label, and could care less about the RIAA.
--
Composer, performer, pianist
[text was edited by author 2003-07-27 12:28:32]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7512971 Sun, 27 Jul 2003 12:13:13 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7512879 wtansill :
said by pianotech See Profile:
said by The Truth7 See Profile:
sry buddy, i'm a musician too and guess what. Musicians should be paid based on the performance they promote to the consumer.

Single's should cost no more then a buck a piece and they should be readily available for the songs that are popular.



I agree with you 200%. A buck is actually the highest they should be. .75-99 cents would be about right.

That said, the artist deserves that 79-99 cents if the song is downloaded and kept.

I think the CD model has been dead for several years now except for classical works where you have entire symphonies.
So in your estimation that $0.75-$0.99 should go to the artist in addition to the royalties already charged on blank CD media that are there specifically to compensate the artists for supposed losses attributed to downloading? I'm sorry, my argument would be that I've already paid for that privilege via the up-front royalty fee. Additionally, there are many, many folks who never D/L music, and who only use the CDs to back up data, create family photo albums etc. These folks never receive a dime's of value from their royalty contribution. Why is it that you only see "theft" as a one-way venture?
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That which does not kill me merely prolongs the agony.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7512879 Sun, 27 Jul 2003 12:00:35 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7511920 pianotech :
said by The Truth7 See Profile:
sry buddy, i'm a musician too and guess what. Musicians should be paid based on the performance they promote to the consumer.

Single's should cost no more then a buck a piece and they should be readily available for the songs that are popular.



I agree with you 200%. A buck is actually the highest they should be. .75-99 cents would be about right.

That said, the artist deserves that 79-99 cents if the song is downloaded and kept.

I think the CD model has been dead for several years now except for classical works where you have entire symphonies.
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Composer, performer, pianist]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7511920 Sun, 27 Jul 2003 08:34:06 EDT Can you say STING? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7511595 Nascaracsan : Maybe its a sting operation setup by the RIAA..

By looking up your name, aren't you admitting to filesharing?
Couldn't the RIAA subpoena the names, from this site, as evidence of admission of guilt?

Seems to me that filesharing is no different than recording off the radio or TV. As long as you don't profit from those recordings.....

Didn't the RIAA or someone have the same reaction when the VHS/Beta recorders came out?

Nas =^.,.^=

"Drive it like you own it"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7511595 Sun, 27 Jul 2003 05:31:00 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7510789 ravital :
said by The Truth7 See Profile:
If most of your music is crap, noone's gonna buy your damn cd, point blank.
Here is where your argument fails: The fact that a particular piece of music is bought by many people and downloaded (legally or not) by many others is not an indication of the quality of the work. The difference between the shrink-wrapped CD from the store and the P2P-downloaded material is not that the CD is garbage and the d/l music is the greatest work of music ever recorded. The difference is that the CD is 90% garbage that the consumer doesn't want and the d/l music is 100% garbage that the consumer wants.

Okay, probably not 100% garbage, but this principle that "lots of people want it = high quality music" is simply not true. I mean, isn't that how RIAA labels have suckered all of us for years to begin with? "top 40" and "Platinum" and "Best selling" all of a sudden are the marks of quality? If music proves anything, it proves that different people have different tastes, and what's garbage to you is the most beautiful music to someone else.
said by The Truth7 See Profile:
they're going to piss off a large amount of today's youth and they aren't going to buy the crap anymore.
While we're on the topic of "today's youth" and different musical tastes and garbage music and all that, I'm sure there's a few young folks out there who dig Jazz or classical music, but do you think you can find a lot of those kinds of music on an average day on Kazaa or any other P2P network? So if you can't find any Bach or Beethoven or Keith Jarrett or Charlie Mingus on P2P, does that mean they're garbage?


[text was edited by author 2003-07-27 02:32:53]
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7510789 Sun, 27 Jul 2003 00:53:32 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7510418 The Truth7 : sry buddy, i'm a musician too and guess what. Musicians should be paid based on the performance they promote to the consumer.

Single's should cost no more then a buck a piece and they should be readily available for the songs that are popular.

Why aren't they? Cuz the fucking record industry would rather say buy the whole cd, even though the rest of it is crap for the average 15 bucks.

There's no competition in this field either. Its not like record labels are going to price war with eachother, they banded together and charge the same avg price. Thats why there was a class action law suit against them which they LOST.

They're not offering any way for the consumer to justify the current price scheme.

Thats why there's people sharing these files, and sharing your music. If most of your music is crap, noone's gonna buy your damn cd, point blank. Thats how it should be too, its called competative advantage.

Just bs scare tactics by a company thats started their own death.

I really hope they realise that by sending out all those subpeona'a and screwing all those people like that, they're going to piss off a large amount of today's youth and they aren't going to buy the crap anymore.

You think this is going to make the people buy their cd's? Ha! The people getting sued, are going to tell their friend and family to stop, that the record industry can piss off.

If your going to go on your whole "i'm a musician" play, well guess what, i am too. Its simple economics, quality=consistent demand for your product. Quantity without quality=diminished demand. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7510418 Sun, 27 Jul 2003 00:01:02 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7509365 pianotech :
said by ifarrell See Profile:
Perhaps you should be a Lawyer for the RIAA, they are obviously need narrow minded people like you.


Thanks for the suggestion, but musicians make lousy lawyers. :)
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Composer, performer, pianist]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7509365 Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:36:15 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7509308 ifarrell :
said by pianotech See Profile:
I didn't see the words, "don't infringe" anywhere. Did you?


Perhaps you should have this out with EFF if it bothers you.
You obviously take every written word literally.
Perhaps you should be a Lawyer for the RIAA, they are obviously need narrow minded people like you.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7509308 Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:27:52 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7507940 pianotech : Kaltes,

I know the business, having worked in it for some 20 years. I understand copyrights, which was why I made the distinction between "infringing" and "copywritten."

You choose to pepper your posts with comments such as "The other angle to your stupidity emerges..." and so on. I could respond in like, but choose not to, because I realize that because you disagree with me does not give me any reason (or right) to assume that you are stupid and label you as such.

I'm sure the reality of it is that you are a very intelligent person with a differing opinion. :) In any case, I would have preferred to have had a reasonable, productive dialog with you. It's a shame you are unwilling or unable to do so.
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Composer, performer, pianist]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7507940 Sat, 26 Jul 2003 17:29:47 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7507890 Kaltes : ""And it didn't say not to have infringing files on your computer, it said not to have infringing files in your shared folder.""

- HELLO! What is on the _REST_ of your hard drive is not relevant to the topic of the EFF webpage in question. Now you are crying because the EFF did not lecture readers about how copyright infringement is wrong and they should never engage in it in any form whether by sharing on p2p or elsewhere in their computers?? Excuse them for assuming they were dealing with a sophisticated audience!

- The other angle to your stupidity emerges once you realize the fact that ripping your music to your hard drive is not infringement. If you download files using p2p they download to a folder that is *gasp* shared as well, meaning that the EFFs advice to keep infringing files out of your shared folder is not synonymous with "Once you dl infringing songs move them out of your shared folder fast like a good leech so you don't get caught!" which is how you read it, because you are biased and generally incapable of putting 2 and 2 together.

Hey piano, it is about time you just admitted that you aren't all that great and stopped blaming your lack of success on everyone else. This is called 'denial'. Get help.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7507890 Sat, 26 Jul 2003 17:22:27 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7506818 SRFireside :
said by pianotech See Profile:
I didn't see the words, "don't infringe" anywhere. Did you?
Does it have to? It sounds like they are trying to give advice as objective as possible without taking any sides. These people aren't legal eagles who can word their articles to cover every little clause or detail that comes up. I know this because I use the EFF for when I wish to respond to legislation I don't agree with, and some of their form letter responses just don't do my stance justice.
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Love Science Fiction? www.spacestationzoom.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7506818 Sat, 26 Jul 2003 14:43:51 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7506814 ravital :
said by pianotech See Profile:
So nice of the EFF to help people break the law. :)
Now then, now then, you know better than that. Here's a more complete quote from the "how not to get sued" link:

"Make sure there are no potentially infringing files in your shared folder. This would ordinarily mean that your shared folder contains only files 1) that are in the public domain, 2) for which you have permission to share, or 3) that are made available under pro-sharing licenses, etc..."

Note that they're not talking about infringing files but "potentially infringing" files, and that could very well include the stuff you bought and own legally. So saying "make sure you have no potentially infringing files on your computer" would have been overboard, as there are some 20 Mb worth of recordings that I own on my computer (and I don't even have a shared folder since I don't use P2P at all).

As to helping people break the law:

Do you implicitly trust the RIAA to only prosecute people with enough solid evidence that they may have infringed, or do you think they will just throw their weight around to intimidate as many people as possible? Looking at "potentially" above and at how American Citizens have been held in jail for months without seeing a lawyer, and without being charged with anything, because they happen to be brownish and have a funny religion, I don't think this is a climate where I can put my trust in the RIAA and accept that if they see what looks like smoke to them, there's got to be a fire. Many, many perfectly innocent people are going to get caught in this subpoena-fest.

Now given that a subpoena, once filed, becomes a matter of public records, and innocent people are not going to travel to every city in which such a subpoena was filed, the EFF steps in and scans your user name for you against a database of PUBLIC records. Not only is there nothing immoral, sinister or illegal in that, it's a great service that they didn't have to offer, and they deserve to be applauded for that.

I went to their page, entered the user names that I use most often, and they all turned out clean. This time. I'm not paranoid, but I don't feel relieved either.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7506814 Sat, 26 Jul 2003 14:43:43 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7506696 pianotech : I didn't see the words, "don't infringe" anywhere. Did you?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7506696 Sat, 26 Jul 2003 14:25:17 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7506182 SRFireside : That's splitting hairs. I'm sure the terminology was meant for defining any files that would be considered copyright infringement if shared will be called infringing files. Copywritten... infringing... it's all the same to the RIAA. To the casual, non technical, reader it would take up a lot more text and time to explain the difference so I can understand why they still use the term infringing files. The focal point was about what you can or can't share online.
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Love Science Fiction? www.spacestationzoom.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7506182 Sat, 26 Jul 2003 13:11:23 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7506090 pianotech : It didn't say "copywritten files," it said "infringing files." I can have copywritten files on my computer and that are legally mine and not infringing. And it didn't say not to have infringing files on your computer, it said not to have infringing files in your shared folder.

Soooo...basically what they're saying is to keep infringing files away from where they can bee seen.
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Composer, performer, pianist]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7506090 Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:59:03 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7506033 SRFireside :
said by pianotech See Profile:
If it said "Make sure there are no infringing files on your computer," you would have a point. It said, however, "Make sure there are no infringing files on your shared folder. I see that as a distinct difference.
Not really a distinct difference at all. You can have copywritten files on your computer. I have made mp3's of all my favorite songs in my CD collection. Nothing wrong with that. The RIAA is after people sharing copywritten works on P2P networks to what the EFF is saying is completely legitimate and is not promoting any copyright infringement.
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Love Science Fiction? www.spacestationzoom.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7506033 Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:53:29 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7505760 pianotech :
said by lazarus_ See Profile:
said by pianotech See Profile:
So nice of the EFF to help people break the law. :)

--
Composer, performer, pianist
[text was edited by author 2003-07-26 09:50:39]


Maybe you should have read the whole article before typing this.. They arent telling people how to not get sued while still breaking the law...
"Either:
Make sure there are no potentially infringing files in your shared folder. This would ordinarily mean that your shared folder contains only files 1) that are in the public domain, 2) for which you have permission to share, or 3) that are made available under pro-sharing licenses, such as the Creative Commons license or other open media licenses, and
Remove all potentially misleading file names that might be confused with the name of an RIAA artist or song (e.g., "Usher" or "Madonna") from your shared folder.

Or:

Disable the "sharing" or "uploading" features on your P2P application that allow other users on the network to get copies of files from your computer or scan any of your music directories. We hate this option, but it does appear that it will reduce your chances of becoming an RIAA target right now. For instructions on how to do this for particular applications, EFF suggests (but cannot guarantee) the following links: "


It it said "Make sure there are no infringing files on your computer," you would have a point. It said, however, "Make sure there are no infringing files on your shared folder. I see that as a distinct difference.
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Composer, performer, pianist]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7505760 Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:12:14 EDT Re: Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7505636 lazarus_ :
said by pianotech See Profile:
So nice of the EFF to help people break the law. :)

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Composer, performer, pianist
[text was edited by author 2003-07-26 09:50:39]


Maybe you should have read the whole article before typing this.. They arent telling people how to not get sued while still breaking the law...
"Either:
Make sure there are no potentially infringing files in your shared folder. This would ordinarily mean that your shared folder contains only files 1) that are in the public domain, 2) for which you have permission to share, or 3) that are made available under pro-sharing licenses, such as the Creative Commons license or other open media licenses, and
Remove all potentially misleading file names that might be confused with the name of an RIAA artist or song (e.g., "Usher" or "Madonna") from your shared folder.

Or:

Disable the "sharing" or "uploading" features on your P2P application that allow other users on the network to get copies of files from your computer or scan any of your music directories. We hate this option, but it does appear that it will reduce your chances of becoming an RIAA target right now. For instructions on how to do this for particular applications, EFF suggests (but cannot guarantee) the following links: "
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Dont copy that floppy. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7505636 Sat, 26 Jul 2003 11:55:40 EDT Very nice of them! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7504944 pianotech : So nice of the EFF to help people break the law. :)

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Composer, performer, pianist
[text was edited by author 2003-07-26 09:50:39]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,7504944 Sat, 26 Jul 2003 09:47:14 EDT