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2kmaro
Think
Premium,ExMod 1 BC
join:2000-07-11
ColossalCave
kudos:1

4 recommendations

Discussion of the MVM program

I hesitate to start this, but it seems that one or two voices keep shouting from the darkness to be heard and so under the part of this forums description of "...also general BBR/DSLR site issues that are not of a bug or new feature nature." we'll discuss the issues.

First - a few "facts" about MVMs. Before beginning this thread I personally reviewed the accounts of each and every current MVM tag holder. Some points to consider:

Age of membership: anything from longer than I've been a member (I joined in July 2000), to just under 9 months.

Behavior: Some 12% (23 out of 195) have received some type of warning, watch or even posting ban at some time in their history. Conversely, this means that 88% have a pretty much spotless record. The severity of their rules infraction ranged from simply being off-topic in a thread to out and out flaming. Most warnings were pretty old, although one for blatant flaming was given as late as 01 August of this year - the only one I saw given AFTER a person received MVM status. For the most part, the MVMs are a pretty well behaved bunch here at BBR regardless of the number of bodies buried under their houses in real life.

General Observation: For the most part, from what I could see, the number of posts started by them is much less than the number of posts they participate in. And in looking at a random sampling of posts, it would appear that their postings are of the "here, let me try to help with this suggestion" type rather than the "LOL!" or "ROFLMAO" types. Also I noticed that they seemed more inclined to stick with a problem to help solve it until it was solved.

Most of them seem to be rather diverse in their interests; posting in several forums. But there were numerous exceptions to this in that I saw several that seemed to just hang out in one specific forum such as P2P, Security or Digital Imaging.

Ok - enough of that. It should give us a starting point. A question was raised by DeeC See Profile that (my interpretation) asked pretty much how do they get the MVM tag. All I have to say about that is already written here: »Site FAQ »The MVM tag

So now on to open discussion. And we will hold this discussion to the MVM "program" here at BBR. I will not partake in discussion of the particulars of any individual MVM. If anyone has a problem with the way an MVM is behaving or has behaved, then bring forth specific evidence in the form of reference postings by them. and do not provide those links here in this thread - could be construed as a personal attack - send them to me via IM

One final note and I'll post this: another comment that's been made was of the nature of "what about so-and-so, he is a great help in xyz forum". That's covered in the FAQ I linked to earlier. In the cases of people such as that, I agree that they may be ultra helpful in a single forum, however it would appear that they wander into foreign territory (other forums) with a loaded Uzi and a strong urge to not return home until it's empty. So it would seem that misbehaving in some forums would offset being incredibly helpful, jovial and brilliant in just one or two others.
--
Man - the animal voted least likely to leave well enough alone.


PapaDos
Cum Grano Salis
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-08
Lasalle, QC
kudos:3
May I ask a question, to the "selecting party", that could be considered slightly off topic ?
(Difficult to keep me from doing it , but feel free to delete this post if considered a bad start.)

How many of the victims (MVMs ) were reluctant and/or tried to avoid getting "tagged" ?
--
Nunc est bibendum...


2kmaro
Think
Premium,ExMod 1 BC
join:2000-07-11
ColossalCave
kudos:1
None that I know of. No MVM candidate knows they are a candidate until the tag is ready. Then, just like you did, they get a notification of congratulations from me. We generally get a pretty flustered, flabbergasted "gee wow thanks" IM back from them. No one has ever requested to have the tag removed, or requested that it not be put in place but I suppose that is an option. We're not going to MAKE someone wear it if they don't want to. And yes, I remember your reticence in accepting the tag .
--
Man - the animal voted least likely to leave well enough alone.


PapaDos
Cum Grano Salis
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-08
Lasalle, QC
kudos:3
I have been told I was not the only one...
--
Nunc est bibendum...


2kmaro
Think
Premium,ExMod 1 BC
join:2000-07-11
ColossalCave
kudos:1
I actually don't recall any particulars. There very well may have been another or others. If you really don't want the tag, I can get it removed. All that would be needed would be an IM to me and a little (bit of) time to get it done.

Another way that anyone can get it removed without even asking is to change their user account name. The tag is associated with the name, not the account number. But I can understand why someone wouldn't want to change their name.
--
Man - the animal voted least likely to leave well enough alone.


removed
Premium,VIP
join:2002-02-08
Houston, TX
kudos:40

1 recommendation

reply to 2kmaro
One of my issues with MVM is that some of the strangest people get the tag. I don't mean strange as unusual... but strange as in NOT HELPFUL. I can name a few that only whore away in the entertainment forums.

It would be nice to know how some people got the tag. Because, quite honestly, I can't see where a good few have been helpful. And no, it's not obvious.


Michelle4
Premium
join:2001-12-22

1 recommendation

reply to 2kmaro
I'm curious as to how a person who does nothing but post whore in certain entertainment forums can even be considered for an MVM tag. I have seen users that have the tag, and if you check their posts, you find that most (if not all) of their posts are made in the entertainment forums. I thought MVMs were supposed to be recognized for their ability to help people with their problems, and NOT for their ability to whore away in the entertainment forums.

Just my .02
--
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


DeeC
Premium
join:2000-09-01
the world
kudos:1
reply to PapaDos
said by PapaDos:
I have been told I was not the only one...

You weren't....I know someone who is MVM who doesn't care for the tag either, they just don't go around advertising it, & sure enough aren't going to tell Mods or other MVMs.

They did tell me, because I am friend of theirs..
--
If you have to ask what EFNET is, you don't need broadband


Just curious

@216.127.x.x

1 recommendation

I am curious. If someone were made an MVM and did not care for the tag why did they accept it? If they still don't care for it, why do they keep it? No one is forcing the tag on them. If they really didn't care for it, as they stated, then they still wouldn't have it.


DeeC
Premium
join:2000-09-01
the world
kudos:1

reply to 2kmaro
Both Carrie and oWn3d make valid points - Someone should look into them.

Personally, I believe the MVM tag should be awarded based on a consensus of the forum users (for which the MVM tag is being given) & Mods/Other MVMs. Yes, it is too late to change the process for those already rewarded, but someone should consider evolving the process to include "user" input. For some reason, if our feedback is even allowed (w/o being deleted or locked), it still falls on deaf ears.......

At this point, I'm really beginning to see a separation growing between regular users (of which many are just as helpful as MVMs often times), and the "official" MVMs. I think this distance will continue to grow as long as users have absolutely 'no' participation in the process.

Again, all JMHO.......and as you may notice, not a flame, just constructive feedback, ontopic, as I always try to be (before a troll comes in), lol

EDIT: Typo(s).

[text was edited by author 2003-09-07 23:05:15]


DeeC
Premium
join:2000-09-01
the world
kudos:1
reply to Just curious
said by Just curious:
I am curious. If someone were made an MVM and did not care for the tag why did they accept it? If they still don't care for it, why do they keep it? No one is forcing the tag on them. If they really didn't care for it, as they stated, then they still wouldn't have it.
Sorry, but I am choosing to not answer anonymous users (though I have an opinion on your comment), as I think most don't register here to incite or cause issues in threads.
--
If you have to ask what EFNET is, you don't need broadband


removed
Premium,VIP
join:2002-02-08
Houston, TX
kudos:40

1 recommendation

reply to DeeC
said by DeeC:
Personally, I believe the MVM tag should be awarded based on a consensus of the forum users (for which the MVM tag is being given) & Mods/Other MVMs. Yes, it is too late to change the process for those already rewarded, but someone should consider evolving the process to include "user" input. For some reason, if our feedback is even allowed (w/o being deleted or locked), it still falls on deaf ears.......
I agree. Why should mods have to decide who's helpful and who isn't? I'm sure some of them get help every once in a while, but it's the regular (with that I mean non-mod) users that actually 'value' the members.

It should be a way of having USERS say "thanks", NOT the site moderators.


pcdebb
RIP lil hurricane
Premium
join:2000-12-03
Brandon, FL
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Bright House
reply to 2kmaro
IMO I think an MVM should be nominated for those that feel they are helpful. I would think it would be obvious if a person always has the time and puts in the effort to help people regularly could get the proverbial "thumbs up". I may be out in left field simply because I dont know how the process goes in getting MVM tagged onto your names. In the almost three years I've been here I'm sure I've helped maybe one or two people, but there are those that do nothing but help.

I can also agree with removed See Profile about those with the tag that aren't really helpful, but simply "post whore" like any other user of these forums.
--
I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather...not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car ... (posts) ... AIM ...


2kmaro
Think
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join:2000-07-11
ColossalCave
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to 2kmaro
Points to ponder at this stage:

#1 - who said a poster had to be "technically proficient" or particularly adept with computers or such to gain the tag? I haven't read that anywhere - an assumption that someone just came up with? Without naming names, I can also think of posters who seldom stray from some of the entertainment forums, but it would appear that their posts add a little intelligence and a bit of class to what are otherwise just sandlot gatherings most of the time. Seems like that's contributing to the site. Additionally, a few who aren't real active posters at the present time were probably given consideration for their past contributions or even for their present behind the scenes contributions to the site (as with helping with distributed computing projects, find newsworthy topics for the front page, etc). These are things the general membership probably can't even be aware of.

And talk about opening a can of worms!! It's bad enough now the amount of time we site hosts and moderators spend trying to justify our actions because some people think we are required by some law to explain every move we make. Think of what it would be like trying to answer all of the "well, how the hell did so-and-so make it?" or "how come so-and-so DIDN'T make it, I nominated them and I know they deserve it". I don't even want to go there - not enough hours in the day.

#2 - Concensus of the forum users? But doesn't the description of the tag say "site" as opposed to forum? As noted in my first posting, there are a few who have become MVM who only hang out in one or two forums. Believe it or not, MVM is not the result of a popularity contest. There are actually some objective measures to be made (queries don't work without them) in even identifying potential candidates. No, I won't say what they are because then you get into the realm of people trying to (ab)use the system so they can, as has so ineloquently been said earlier, to whore their way into the tag. Same kind of reasoning that goes along with not telling exactly what counts toward or how much something counts toward stars.

#3 - As for Just curious' questions: I don't know, you'd have to find out who they are and ask them. But the cat's out of the bag now and a specific "remedy" to cure their affliction has been afforded, I'll be waiting to serve any who elect to have the tag turned off when they wish for it to happen - and trust me, I won't say another word about it to them or anyone else (except to pass along the word to those who have control of the switch). It's their personal choice.

#4 - Also, I see here some guilt of exactly the same thing that is being said is being done by MVM: having a class distinction by some members. Several references to unhelpful, just enjoy the site, "post whores" have been made. Is this not a class distinction? Are those calling others whores not looking down their noses at them (not as good as me because you don't know the difference between a worm and a virus, between a true firewall and NAT)?? We've always had class distinction of various types. It's kind of like the real world. There are green star holders, gold star holders, silver star holders and those with no stars. There are premium members and non-premium members, there are hosts and there are the important people - the members (regardless of color of star, age of account, eccentricity of username, or distributed computing or operating system affiliation). Good lord, we just had an example of someone being ostracized because they posted anonymously in an open forum by someone claiming that having MVMs demeans them. This begins to take on a real flavor of sour grapes: you can't have what I percieve to be an elite group unless I'm a part of it.
--
Man - the animal voted least likely to leave well enough alone.


removed
Premium,VIP
join:2002-02-08
Houston, TX
kudos:40

1 recommendation

said by 2kmaro:
And talk about opening a can of worms!! It's bad enough now the amount of time we site hosts and moderators spend trying to justify our actions because some people think we are required by some law to explain every move we make. Think of what it would be like trying to answer all of the "well, how the hell did so-and-so make it?" or "how come so-and-so DIDN'T make it, I nominated them and I know they deserve it". I don't even want to go there - not enough hours in the day.
Excuse my french, but that's a bunch of shit. If they really are so helpful, why not share with the crowds what their area of expertise is?

As for some people getting the tag for "intelligent" comments in Entertainment forums....
said by www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,6100932~root=poll,swapping:
I've done some checking around: the purely "entertainment" forums (as the city/area chat forums) and non-technical forums (as Game Reviews) are excluded from inclusion. If someone only posts in those, sorry, never hoppin' G.I.
Seems to me that MVM is just the head honchos choosing who they like. Nice one.


2kmaro
Think
Premium,ExMod 1 BC
join:2000-07-11
ColossalCave
kudos:1

1 recommendation

Didn't I just say this "...but it would appear that their posts add a little intelligence and a bit of class to what are otherwise just sandlot gatherings most of the time." Indicating that technical expertise was NOT an absolute requirement?

Can someone give me an MVM name (via IM please) that posts EXCLUSIVELY in an entertainment forum? Has NEVER posted anywhere else and NEVER assisted another member in some way?

"Seems to me that MVM is just the head honchos choosing who they like." Please define "like". As in buddy buddy or as in appear to meet certain guidelines. I'll clue one and all in on this: the process has been set up to take as much of the personal likes and dislikes of any single individual out of the equation. Yes, there are human beings involved in the process, and that makes it an imperfect process. But all and all, I still see it as a good process -- certainly not filled with the bought-their-way-in group that we call Congress .

Another thing I'll say: the process was ENTIRELY thought up by the hosts and moderators of this site. Not one word of input was received, not even the SUGGESTION was provided from a non-moderator/host. Thus it is a SITE MANAGEMENT process and I don't think you're going to see it turned over to the general population to run or alter as they feel it ought to be .... this week .... as opposed to the way they feel it ought to be run next week.
--
Man - the animal voted least likely to leave well enough alone.


removed
Premium,VIP
join:2002-02-08
Houston, TX
kudos:40

So why not state that somewhere? "This user got the MVM tag because..." It would definitely make it less confusing.

Like as in buddy-buddy. You can read my IM for more.

As for the whole "...don't think you're going to see it turned over to the general population..." thing, why did you start this thread? I'm beginning to think that this is just a "you had your chance to bitch about it" thing.

edit - typos
[text was edited by author 2003-09-08 01:11:37]


Bobb5
Premium
join:2001-02-16
Kent, WA

reply to 2kmaro
I read this in the MvM description, never read that or really understood how it worked before. So basically, whoever Mods like get the tag? This explains quite a bit.
I'd like to know more about this points system though?
»Site FAQ »The MVM tag
Basically it's like the points system; an attempt at systematically identifying those who are considered extra helpful. The moderators can nominate people as deserving MVM tag, that are not top of the list, but they must be close. Neither Justin, nor anyone else who works for broadbandreports.com, is involved in the selection process!
[text was edited by author 2003-09-08 04:37:02]


dumwaldo
Premium
join:2001-03-12
reply to 2kmaro
this will be short because i am on my cell phone and not a full computer and it can be difficult to compose a lengthy post like i believe i am known for.

what i did want to say now that i did not want to wait 14 or 15 hours to say is that there is a very simple solution.

strip all MVM tags and eliminate them. they were a bad idea in the first place and IMHO it is obvious that the elitism and seperation they would create was never once considered.

i also want to point out that those of us that thought we should have gotten one and did not have been lied to over and over again. first i was told entertainment forums were ineligable (i wont go into my contributions on the OOL forum at this time) and that is now a lie. then i was told anybody that has been post watched is not eligable and now that too is exposed as a lie.

get rid of the tags all together. the ones that understand and say nothing are the real MVM's anyway. the ones that complain are the ones that probably do not deserve them in the first place.

i will post more specific information later but i could not hold my tounge all day on this subject.

peace out,
dumwaldo


DeeC
Premium
join:2000-09-01
the world
kudos:1
reply to 2kmaro
2kmaro,

If I had the time, I would address every item in your post, but I do not, at least not right now.

I do agree with Bobb, and by someone's own words, it is a Moderator "choosing" list it seems based what was posted and quoted in Bobb's reply. "That says it all" is 100% right.

Last, though dum and I disagree on most things - On this, we agree that it is creating a division, and probably was not a good idea unless user input was necessary for it.

Now, I have to get ready for work, ttyl....
--
If you have to ask what EFNET is, you don't need broadband


2kmaro
Think
Premium,ExMod 1 BC
join:2000-07-11
ColossalCave
kudos:1

1 recommendation

For dumwaldo See Profile - I don't think you've been lied to. The MVM program has evolved since its inception. Changes have been made - and one of those changes is which forums that a poster posts in is now looked at closer, with many of the entertainment forums being excluded from consideration. In other words, if NOW a person posts 95% of their stuff in an entertainment forum, they have little chance to become MVM. As far as EVER having been on post watch, that was never true. It is still true that having had a recent (and I won't define it further than that) run in will again lessen your chances. But also the nature of the offense is considered. Having broken the 24-hour no-bump rule in for sale doesn't quite rank up there with outright flaming of a member or visitor. In dealing with members, we're dealing with people and people screw up - and people can change. We recognize that and aren't about to hold a 2-year old screw up against someone if they've cleaned up their act (and no, 2 yrs isn't the limit;)).

You people are all looking at individual attributes of the program - you're not seeing the whole picture. And this is kind of a whole person concept. There is no template for the model MVM.

Now, if any of you would actually like to offer suggestions as to what you feel should be used to identify potential candidates, then please do so. Lets think of some input you could provide that is non-member specific:

How long should a person be a member before they can be eligible? 1 day, 1 month, 1 year? Something in between a couple of those numbers? How much and why?

Where should they post and what should their posts consist of. Do we give equal weight to someone who posts "LOL!" 50 times a day to the person who routinely provides good advice or problem solution maybe 2 or 3 times a day on average?

Come on - you've said you don't like the program. I see 3 or 4 people out of the thousands who don't have the title voicing their displeasure in it. And I don't see any constructive criticism of it: what do YOU feel needs to be done to make it acceptable to you. It ain't going away, and no one is going to rip it open and lay out requirements here for the greedy to gobble up and use to their advantage to beat the system, so lets hear some suggestions.

And why isn't it going public? For the same reasons that points for stars aren't publicized. For the same reasons that thumbs-ups are no longer treated as they were initially: because there is a great number of people just waiting to abuse the system to their own personal advantage.
--
Man - the animal voted least likely to leave well enough alone.


Brainless
Premium
join:2000-12-15
Nicholasville, KY
reply to 2kmaro
Lets face it, no matter how much people complain, this program is not going to be removed, unless everyone is complaining. It is a way of the people running this site to thank those that contribute to the site. What no one is looking at is, this helps the site and every member that comes here. By thanking those that contribute, the ones that are contributing stay longer. They stick around and contribute more. This keeps the site going in a positive direction. Keeping the site going in a positive direction keeps the site alive. Belive me when I say, keeping a site going in a positive direction is not an easy task, and you need everything that helps.

Being tagged as MVM is similar as being tagged as a moderator. Both are tagged because they are here all the time and contribute in a positive way. There is a bunch more to it, but that is the basics. I am sure some fall through the hole at times because lets face it, we are all human (at least most are). I have heard the same complaints about moderators as I have heard about MVMs. So should we remove all moderators now? Are they both related? You bet. You better belive, when a moderator is needed, they will look at the pool of MVMs first.

Is it a buddy system? Some may see it that way, but it is not a buddy system. I have seen buddy systems, and they do not work. I have looked at the MVMs here and followed their posts. Its only a few that dont live up to their tag, and that happens with everything like this. You give a group of people status, and there are going to be a few where it goes to their head. Some things create more harm if they are undone. I am sure their are a few that were given this tag and those that gave it wish they had not. But that is hindsite.

All considered, I think its a good program for this site. Yes, every program needs tweaking. This program has been tweaked since its begining. It will probably need further tweaking. Maybe unstead of complaining, we need to contribute ideas. A fresh perspective is always the best.
--
Building a better communityhttp://inetpublish.com


stev32k
Premium
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Mobile, AL
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Reviews:
·Mediacom
·DIRECTV
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1 recommendation

reply to 2kmaro
I've been following this thread and read another (now locked)on the same subject. My first reaction to all this is "you've got to be kidding!". All this over an MVM tag?

I believe the people complaining about the system need to get their priorities in line. This is a trivial matter. It does not impact anyones health, welfare, family life, job, or religion. It does not impact the functionally or content of the site.

For the people that think the system is unfair - so what? A lot of things in life are unfair, and some of them are important - an MVM tag is not. If you look I'm sure anyone could come up with a long list of things that are unfair, but if you arranged them in order of importance the MVM tag would likely be on or very near the bottom.

If you are in a situation where a policy is in place that you cannot control and you don't like it - you only have two choices - accept it or leave. That applies to your job, and it applies here. If you want to live by the theory that "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" then you should know that if the wheel squeaks too much it gets replaced.

If you continue to complain about trivial matters the best thing that can happen is that you will acquire the label of "immature, cry baby". The worst that can happen is being banned permanently from the site. No one wants to listen to a chronic cry baby. If you must complain at least pick a subject that has some small amount of importance.


removed
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join:2002-02-08
Houston, TX
kudos:40
You're right.. it's not worth discussing. Someone should lock the thread.


HiVolt
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reply to 2kmaro
Wow, I never knew the MVM tag caused so much controversy. I was quite surprised & honoured when I saw it next to my username.

I love this site, I've been a member for nearly 3 years and I frequent several forums on a daily basis and try to help whenever I can. I've gotten a lot of help here myself, so why not give back?
--
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Michelle4
Premium
join:2001-12-22

1 recommendation

reply to 2kmaro
I've read through all the replies and I just simply can not bite my tongue anymore. Those that know me know that I've never been one to make waves or cause trouble on the site, but I feel the need to voice my opinion on this. I think the MVM program is just a crock of crap. It's simply a way for the moderators to play the favorites game and slap the tag on those that THEY deem worthy of it and screw what the rest of the site really thinks. The MODS arent always the ones who benefit from the help that these folks provide, so why should the MODS be the ones to choose who wears the tag? Ninety-nine percent of the people on this site contribute in some way and have helped other users. Where's their recognition? If you cant recognize ALL helpers and be fair about it, then why just pick and choose which ones you deem worthy of being pointed out as one of the more valued members? Post whores are more valued to the mods than those who help out in the other technical forums? That's how it appears. It's to the point now that the program isnt anything respectable anymore, it's a joke and I'm sure that those who truly deserve the tag, i.e. removed See Profile and dumwaldo See Profile, just to name a few, would laugh in your face if told they were being awarded the MVM tag. The mods pick and choose who they want to be an MVM, and they BEND the so-called rules that have been set to justify giving that person the tag.

That's just my .02 and as far as I'm concerned, it's pointless to even try continuing this discussion, as us lowly non-mod, non-MVM peons dont really have an opinion on the matter, this is simply a thread started so later on, we can all say that we had our chance to voice our opinions on the subject. Even if they count for zilch.
--
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


DeeC
Premium
join:2000-09-01
the world
kudos:1

1 recommendation

Carrie - I do agree with you on pretty much all of what you say. As for overlooked MVMs, oWn3d and Bobb (User Find Hot Deals) are the most blatant. I don't know the membership of other forums to suggest any users for them. I have my own beliefs why they haven't received a MVM, and as for oWn3d (or dum) specifically, that's an entirely different thread.

2KMaro - Let's just be honest here. Yes, this site is not a democracy, therefore user input/feedback is not necessary for it to run. But, considering that very fact, let's also NOT PRETEND the system is fair and objective. Any system designed for users, where users have 0% feedback in the process, is not for the users, but for the hand-picked individuals who run the site, period. If we can all agree to this, then the thread is no longer necessary.

That about sums it up on the consensus issue, and as for the few out of thousands voicing, well, most people probably a) don't give a damn, b) don't believe their comments will make a difference, c) don't even know we are discussing the issue or d) all of the above - take a pick.

own3d - You were right on that long f*cking novel crap (inside joke).

Later!
--
If you have to ask what EFNET is, you don't need broadband


DeeC
Premium
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the world
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to HiVolt
funny thing is, a few MVMs are surprised at getting it, probably because they "feel" they don't help anymore than the next user.....

that's the interesting part
--
If you have to ask what EFNET is, you don't need broadband


Michelle4
Premium
join:2001-12-22
reply to DeeC
said by DeeC:
own3d - You were right on that long f*cking novel crap (inside joke).

Yes, yes he was.
--
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


DeeC
Premium
join:2000-09-01
the world
kudos:1
said by Michelle4:
said by DeeC:
own3d - You were right on that long f*cking novel crap (inside joke).

Yes, yes he was.


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If you have to ask what EFNET is, you don't need broadband
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