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cmaenginsb
Premium
join:2001-03-19
Palmdale, CA

This makes no difference

While this article makes an interesting point about HAM radio interfering with BPL as well as vice versa.

As the study points out, BPL is just as subject to interference as the interference it puts out itself. That means using some intermediate technology for the last mile still doesn't fix anything. And 5Ghz, what a joke, there are huge LOS limitations on this as anyone who's tried and 802.11a setup can attest to. Not to mention you now have cordless phones and other devices running on this band ready to interfere. Finally you have WISPs also using this band.

Personally I think if the money and time wasted in some of these "technologies" was used to improve infrastructure in the last mile everyone would have decent speeds. By the time BPL becomes accepted, the power companies will find out it would have been cheaper to run fiber to every house and offer phone and TV service as well. (Why not they have the rights of way)
--
CCNA, Comtrain Certified Tower Climber

KB2PSM

join:2002-08-06
Long Beach, NY

2 edits

Some salient points here.
Why is BPL being pushed? Not so much because it is the best technology to get high speed data communication to the masses but because the power companies can push it as a way to create more business for themselves by jumping into this hot-technology field with as little cost or system upgrading as possible.

On the surface, who would argue with low-cost broadband access to all. But, the costs of an ineffective or problematic system needs to be evaluated. This article looks at the damage to (and from) amateur radio. Again, on the surface, most folks could care less- but amateur radio is a MAJOR communications backbone for national defense, disasters, etc.

The disruption of communications for amateur radio are also problems in many radio communication systems currently used in defense, aeronautics, etc. Because BPL will rely on a wide signal through spread-spectrum frequency use, it cannot simply be notched out or attenuated with RF (radio frequency) filters.

There are now many US private and governmental agencies, some military and public service that have rallied against the damaging effects of BPL technologies. In most cases this is not based on fear of the unknown, but actual testing done at and around the BPL test sites across the country.

Further substantiating these concerns are the trials done in other countries prior to BPL even taking much interest here in the US. As mentioned in the article, in other countries such as cutting-edge technology loving Japan, BPL was discarded due to the detrimental effects to various radio services. Other European countries have scrapped BPL after their own research showed indelible damage to many (some critical) radio frequency based services.

Presently, there are many complaints against electric companies for lossy power lines, bad transformers, insulators, etc...causing RF interference through arcing and RF radiation. It has often been an uphill battle for complaints to be resolved. Yet, on these (some leaky and antiquated) systems, the power companies want to inject powerful large radio-spectrum BPL signals.

Personally, I have no beef against the power authorities, however the proposed systems are worrisome. It would be great to offer broadband to those who cannot easily get it, but in this case the messenger (form of delivery) may need to be shot. There are less invasive means that should be considered.



AthlGrond
Premium,MVM
join:2002-04-25
Aurora, CO
Reviews:
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said by KB2PSM:
The disruption of communications for amateur radio are also problems in many radio communication systems currently used in defense, aeronautics, etc. Because BPL will rely on a wide signal through spread-spectrum frequency use, it cannot simply be notched out or attenuated with RF (radio frequency) filters.
I thought the two main points in favor of spread-spectrum were:
1) The signal does not need to be as strong as a traditional broadcast would be to be clearly received.
and
2) The signal does not interfere with traditional radio systems due to the dispersed nature of the signal

see:
»www.sss-mag.com/ss.html
Quote:
"Spread-spectrum radio communications, long a favorite technology of the military because it resists jamming and is hard for an enemy to intercept, is now on the verge of potentially explosive commercial development. The reason: spread-spectrum signals, which are distributed over a wide range of frequencies and then collected onto their original frequency at the receiver, are so inconspicuous as to be 'transparent.' Just as they are unlikely to be intercepted by a military opponent, so are they unlikely to interfere with other signals intended for business and consumer users -- even ones transmitted on the same frequencies. Such an advantage opens up crowded frequency spectra to vastly expanded use."

KB2PSM

join:2002-08-06
Long Beach, NY

1 edit

There are a number of different techniques used in access BPL, from spread spectrum to OFDM (multi-carrier signals). With most of the technology being presented, this rapidly changing wide carrier has generated "noise" over several radio bands all at once. Basically, the systems being tested have wide signals over several large bandwidths simultaneously. Most radio transmitters and receivers use a small sliver of spectrum or specific frequencies such that the frequencies just above and below can be sharply attenuated or dissipated. With these multi-carrier signals that basically stretch from frequencies between 2 and 80 MHz, BPL could affect HF and low-VHF allocations wherever it's deployed and such a wide active frequency range precludes any use of filters on either the BPL or radio receiver end.

Here are a few Amateur Radio inspired links on BPL:
»www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/
»gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retr···15383154

Here are some video and audio streams of some of the actual tests conducted both in the US and abroad-
»www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/#Video

Be well,
Rob



AthlGrond
Premium,MVM
join:2002-04-25
Aurora, CO
Reviews:
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Wouldn't they have to be pumping out a huge amount of power to have significant impact on a full 78MHz of frequency? (I'm not completely familiar with how wide a carrier a HAM radio would use but it must be infinitesimal by comparison to something 78MHz wide.)



rf_engineer

join:2003-08-04
USA

1 edit

said by AthlGrond:
Wouldn't they have to be pumping out a huge amount of power to have significant impact on a full 78MHz of frequency? (I'm not completely familiar with how wide a carrier a HAM radio would use but it must be infinitesimal by comparison to something 78MHz wide.)

It depends. Most every receiver (wireless or BPL) has a first stage that amplifies the intended signal so it can be converted to a lower frequency and then have the information extracted (voice, data, etc.) This first stage is typically very sensitive and provides a lot of signal amplification (also known as "gain"). Talking in generalities at this point, if this stage expects to see a signal of, say, -80 dBmW, and it gets a signal of +30 dBmW from a nearby transmitter, bad things happen. Ignore the units for a moment, but note the magnitude. It's likely the stage will be overwhelmed and will electrically "freak out" and produce all kinds of spectrum garbage that the subsequent stages can't handle. This will cause the entire receiver to flip out and not work. In an extreme case, the device in the first stage may just die from all the power that's hitting it.

Regardless of how wide or narrow the incoming strong signal, the stage has to deal with it and attempt to amplify it if it's within it's intended frequency range. A single frequency of a few watts or even milliwatts could do this depending on circumstances.

Sorry to go on so long, but that's the long answer

( Update: Just to be clear, I'm referring to Ham or other HF signals from local transmitters getting into BPL systems. I think that's what you were asking...)

K3NG

KB2PSM

join:2002-08-06
Long Beach, NY

1 edit

reply to AthlGrond
Its not so much that a huge amount of power will be required to create the interference as much as the proximity to the signal. An overseas signal can be rather weak, yet still clearly received by the receiver. A very weak, but local and all-encompassing signal sweeping the same frequency will easily obliterate any others.

The output power of a signal is not the de-facto reason for its reception. Simplifying things- Relative to the receiving station, it is the signal that has the greatest "Field Strength" that will be heard. A tiny signal in the "near field" can easily eliminate extremely powerful signals coming from further away.

Perhaps a fair analogy would be the use of an earphone. Although the volume of the earphone might be minute, the proximity to the ear drum can effectively drone out much louder, yet further noises.

We often look at radio frequency power levels on a relative level, such as a station transmitting 1000 watts should be received more strongly than a 1 watt transmitter. To put this in perspective, when received they excite the receiver in levels of dBmW. By the time, or depending on the condition that the 1000w signal traveled to the receiver, it can present much less dBmW than a much closer yet extremely weak signal.

Where BPL makes a mess of things is in its near-field. Since most radio operations will occur around areas in which power lines are in proximity, these receivers will be easily overloaded with strong signals and interference. Given a "leaky" power line, transformer or poor insulators, the problem only increases.

I hope that I haven't been too simple- I am trying to avoid being too technical.

Rob



AthlGrond
Premium,MVM
join:2002-04-25
Aurora, CO
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What I was thinking is that if BPL were broadcasting at say 1000W of power between 2 and 80MHz the average power output would be .000013W/Hz . Do I have this part of the BPL noise generation wrong?

My understanding was that there is a noise floor that you have to overcome with any carrier wave transmission. Wouldn't this just add a tiny bit to that noise? Or are the power levels that you are dealing with just so small that even a little noise can mess the lot up?

Thanks for your replies BTW



AthlGrond
Premium,MVM
join:2002-04-25
Aurora, CO

reply to rf_engineer
Does the signal strength seen by HAM of the BPL not get reduced by the spectrum spreading? Or is it a matter of not enough reduction?



rf_engineer

join:2003-08-04
USA

said by AthlGrond:
Does the signal strength seen by HAM of the BPL not get reduced by the spectrum spreading? Or is it a matter of not enough reduction?

Kinda sorta not really With spread spectrum the signal or carrier has to be somewhere in the frequency spectrum at any given moment. Any carrier needs to be strong enough to be above the noise floor, overcome transmission losses, and be received. So there is a minimum signal level required for any given carrier being emitted at any given moment. The signal isn't on every frequency at every moment, so the average power over time observed on one frequency is lower, but the peak level is still there.

But looking at this from a BPL design point of view independent of the modulation technique, one would want to run as high a power level as physically and legally possible as this would decrease the need for repeaters, increase the range, and make the system more cost effective. This limit for emissions is 30uV/m at 30 meters. This would apply to any signal regardless of the modulation technique. While some modulation techniques may squeeze more effective bandwidth out of a chunk of spectrum, the raw emission level is still there.

KB2PSM

join:2002-08-06
Long Beach, NY

reply to AthlGrond

said by AthlGrond:
My understanding was that there is a noise floor that you have to overcome with any carrier wave transmission. Wouldn't this just add a tiny bit to that noise? Or are the power levels that you are dealing with just so small that even a little noise can mess the lot up?

Thanks for your replies BTW

I think that rf_engineer gave some interesting details in response to your question.

And, I am glad to engage in this discussion.

Frankly, I am happy about what I have read here- particularly the tone of the discussion. This is a Broadband forum, yet folks seem to be open enough and educated enough to discuss this rather than simply say "damn it all in the name of high speed access". The needs are there, but the delivery needs to be refined. Fiber and localized wireless solutions have greater promise and practicality and in some communities have worked quite well.

Rob


AthlGrond
Premium,MVM
join:2002-04-25
Aurora, CO
Reviews:
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reply to rf_engineer


Direct Sequence

Frequency Hop
said by rf_engineer:
said by AthlGrond:
Does the signal strength seen by HAM of the BPL not get reduced by the spectrum spreading? Or is it a matter of not enough reduction?

Kinda sorta not really With spread spectrum the signal or carrier has to be somewhere in the frequency spectrum at any given moment. Any carrier needs to be strong enough to be above the noise floor, overcome transmission losses, and be received. So there is a minimum signal level required for any given carrier being emitted at any given moment. The signal isn't on every frequency at every moment, so the average power over time observed on one frequency is lower, but the peak level is still there.
That's true of frequency hopping spread spectrum, but with direct sequence the signal is spread by mixing two carriers of differing frequencies, limiting considerably the the peak power level. (when referring to the attached pictures the direct sequence peak value is lower than the frequency hopping one despite appearances )

Do you know if BPL uses DS or FH spread spectrum?
said by rf_engineer:
But looking at this from a BPL design point of view independent of the modulation technique, one would want to run as high a power level as physically and legally possible as this would decrease the need for repeaters, increase the range, and make the system more cost effective. This limit for emissions is 30uV/m at 30 meters. This would apply to any signal regardless of the modulation technique. While some modulation techniques may squeeze more effective bandwidth out of a chunk of spectrum, the raw emission level is still there.
Are you saying that the BPL emissions are 30uV/m at 30 meters? or that they should be and aren't? or that 30uV/m at 30 meters is too much when trying to use HAM?

N0JCG

join:2003-07-18
Minneapolis, MN

The sensitivity of most amateur and many shortwave receivers is on the order of .5uV. That means that even with a very modest antenna, a 30uV/M field will clearly swamp out desired signals. Since most of us live within 30 meters of a powerline, such a field will be a very effective jammer.



AthlGrond
Premium,MVM
join:2002-04-25
Aurora, CO
Reviews:
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said by N0JCG:
The sensitivity of most amateur and many shortwave receivers is on the order of .5uV. That means that even with a very modest antenna, a 30uV/M field will clearly swamp out desired signals. Since most of us live within 30 meters of a powerline, such a field will be a very effective jammer.
So why would the BPL people want 30uV/M instead of less than that? (since much less than that is going to cause resistance from HAM users and others, seems like they would want to produce less)

Is that a regulatory requirement or something?

N0JCG

join:2003-07-18
Minneapolis, MN

FCC Part 15, the regulation the BPL falls under, allows 30uV/meter. Part 15 was written to cover unlicensed, localized and intermittent applications, like garage door openers and early cordless phones. An occasional blip from a nearby garage door opener at 30uV/meter would be heard on a receiver, but it would only be there for a fraction of a second very infrequently; hence not a problem. BPL, however, would be radiating at the max 30uV/meter virtually continuously; big problem!
For a graphic video of what this is like see;
»216.167.96.120/BPL_Trial-web.mpg - for those with broadband access
Internet: »216.167.96.120/BPL_Trial-small.mpg - for those with slower access



AthlGrond
Premium,MVM
join:2002-04-25
Aurora, CO
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said by N0JCG:
FCC Part 15, the regulation the BPL falls under, allows 30uV/meter. Part 15 was written to cover unlicensed, localized and intermittent applications, like garage door openers and early cordless phones. An occasional blip from a nearby garage door opener at 30uV/meter would be heard on a receiver, but it would only be there for a fraction of a second very infrequently; hence not a problem. BPL, however, would be radiating at the max 30uV/meter virtually continuously; big problem!

Of course the ubiquitous nature or power lines only adds to the problem. In addition rather than having a cubic signal drop off rate with distance for a point source they would have more of a square of distance drop off rate since power lines are more line-like than point-like.

I would think that the FCC would be able to do the math on this too and modify Part 15 to reduce the maximum allowance for continuous large scale emissions. (isn't this what they are supposed to do?)

N0JCG

join:2003-07-18
Minneapolis, MN

They could specify reduced emissions, but then BPL won't work at all because the signal has to get down the power line itself a sufficient distance to make the whole thing economical. The FCC could just as easily allow the current limit and tell everyone else to just live with it. What is more likely is they will leave the limits as is. In that case we will have to insist on strict enforcement of the second half of Part 15; that a Part 15 device must cease operation if it causes harmful interference and must accept whatever interference it receives. We already know that a nearby HF transmitter can reduce the BPL bit rate to zero. The BPL providers will have to live with that and advise their users that the service can be interrupted at any time.


KB2PSM

join:2002-08-06
Long Beach, NY

reply to AthlGrond
Another recent update-
found on www.eham.net, borrowed from the ARRL Letter:

Organizations' Comments Augment Alarm Over BPL:
from The ARRL Letter, Vol 23, No 01
Website: »www.arrl.org/ on January 3, 2004
Add a comment about this article!

Organizations' Comments Augment Alarm Over BPL:
Two organizations have filed comments with the FCC that augment previously expressed worries about potential interference from and to Broadband over Power Line (BPL) systems. Picking up on the "grave concerns" the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) »www.fema.gov expressed over BPL December 4, the nonprofit Disaster Preparedness and Emergency Response Association (DERA) »www.disasters.org called on the FCC to require impartial BPL field testing as well as additional public comment and full and open public hearings.

"DERA concludes that serious interference to and disruption of critical emergency communications systems in several licensed services throughout North America would almost certainly result from BPL implementation as currently proposed," DERA said. Endorsing the earlier FEMA remarks, DERA said proposed BPL systems don't just pose a risk of interference, they've already been shown to "actually cause harmful interference to licensed radio services."

Meanwhile, the Amateur Radio Research and Development Corporation (AMRAD) has filed additional test data with the FCC to support preliminary findings suggesting that BPL systems are susceptible to interference from even modest Amateur Radio HF signals. AMRAD said its newest data demonstrated that amateur operation in the test neighborhood would cause many homes to lose their Internet service.

"At least an area out to a radius of 0.51 miles from the transmitting station could have their Internet connection interrupted," AMRAD said. "Closer-in homes would almost certainly have their Internet service interrupted."

For its RF susceptibility experiment, AMRAD used the Potomac Electric Power Company system test site. It features a mid-1960s vintage home with unshielded interior electrical wiring and overhead power lines.

AMRAD found that at a distance of just over one-half mile, data transfer ceased in the face of a 100-W signal on 3980 kHz from a mobile transmitter. Adjacent to the test property, AMRAD said data transfer ceased in all but one instance at a transmitter power of just 4 W in the BPL operating band of from 4 to 21 MHz.

The ARRL hopes to complete an independent BPL engineering study early this year. It will explore how BPL might affect HF and low-VHF amateur operation as well as how Amateur Radio operation could affect BPL systems.

In related news, BPL equipment manufacturer Amperion Inc recently announced an "industry first" by successfully testing its high-speed "Connect" system on 69 kV transmission lines. Typical BPL systems have employed medium and low-voltage lines to deliver broadband and Internet access. Amperion said its tests, performed in conjunction with American Electric Power, demonstrated multi-megabit data transmission to a distance of nearly one mile without the need for a repeater. There's more information on Amperion's Web site »www.amperion.com/press.asp?pid=89.

Additional information about BPL and Amateur Radio is on the ARRL Web site »www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/. To support the League's efforts in this area, visit the ARRL's secure BPL Web site »www.arrl.org/forms/development/d···ons/bpl/.

Source:

The ARRL Letter Vol. 23, No. 01 January 2, 2004


KB2PSM

join:2002-08-06
Long Beach, NY

Austria is the next country to walk away from BPL

Austrian Authorities Pull Plug on BPL Pilot Project:

from The ARRL Letter, Vol 23, No 02
Website: »www.arrl.org/ on January 10, 2004
View comments about this article!

Austrian Authorities Pull Plug on BPL Pilot Project:
The Austrian Amateur Transmitter Federation (ÖVSV--Österreichischer Versuchssenderverband) »www.oevsv.at/index.shtml reports that a Broadband over Power Line (BPL) field test in the city of Linz has been cut short as a result of excessive radio interference. ÖVSV, Austria's International Amateur Radio Union (IARU) »www.iaru.org member-society, said in December that the Government Ministry for Commerce, Innovation and Technology closed down Linz Power Company's BPL pilot project because it was generating interference on the HF bands. Shortwave broadcaster Radio Austria's futureZone service »futurezone.orf.at says the case that brought the issue to a head was a Red Cross report that emergency services radio traffic during a disaster response drill last May was the victim of massive BPL interference.

"The Commerce Ministry Order not only means the end of the Linz BPL pilot project," the Radio Austria report said, "but the end of the deployment of this technology in Austria, especially given the interference to radio communication in places of business." According to the broadcaster, measurements were said to have indicated that radiation from the BPL system exceeded permissible field strength levels by a factor of 10,000.

ÖVSV says radio amateurs in Austria have opposed deployment of all BPL experiments as neither legal nor compatible with "vital, worldwide shortwave radiocommunication." Among other problems with BPL, ÖVSV has cited its potential to disrupt emergency communications and safety-of-life services as well as military operations on HF and navigation and aeronautical communication.

Last fall, ÖVSV representatives and Linz amateurs got together with power company representatives in an effort to resolve BPL's incompatibility with HF radio operation. The meetings followed news reports of interference to emergency service communications and QRM complaints from several area hams. "Because of the racket, expensive installations, such as a 20-meter monobander on a high-rise building, become totally worthless," ÖVSV said.

The utility agreed to look into the possibility of a 100-meter protective zone around each amateur's location, notch filters for amateur frequencies, network system filters and the use of 5 GHz wireless local area networks.

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