Tech and Talk > Gaming > PC gaming GAMES > Even Balance (PUNKBUSTER) Problems

reply to quibbly

Re: Even Balance (PUNKBUSTER) Problems

You're going to lose. Try not to spend too much money on your losing battle.
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Good, fast, or cheap - pick any two.

reply to quibbly

said by quibbly:

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EA stated they will replace my key. Thanks not the problem. The problem is how much power and the open ended EULA that Even Balance has. It's also the attitude that I have received with Even Balance in regards to this problem. With all the emails, faxes and contact with Harris County mitigation, they fail to respond or submit proof that either 1) someone used my key or 2) submit proof of a hack.

Evenbalance is pretending to be both judge and jury in this matter without any proof, or any form of communication. I have acted professionally in regards to this, why are they: changing their phone numbers, using a PO Box, failing to respond to legal documentation from Harris County? If they were an up to par company, they would have shown up to the three mitigation meetings.

Quibbly

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reply to quibbly

said by quibblyAlso, if you would have read all the posts, i never took a new key from EA. [/QUOTE

[QUOTE= quibbly :

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EA stated they will replace my key. Thanks not the problem.

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reply to CylonRed

said by CylonRed:

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Their EULA is no different from any other software companies EULA...

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reply to quibbly

said by quibbly:

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EA stated they will replace my key. Thanks not the problem. The problem is how much power and the open ended EULA that Even Balance has. It's also the attitude that I have received with Even Balance in regards to this problem. With all the emails, faxes and contact with Harris County mitigation, they fail to respond or submit proof that either 1) someone used my key or 2) submit proof of a hack.

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reply to aberrant

said by aberrant:

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said by CylonRed:

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Their EULA is no different from any other software companies EULA...

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Actually, it is very different from other EULAs. Have you seen it? It basically says, "We reserve the right to access any information on your computer at any time, and also reserve the right to take screenshots at any time." I generally skim EULAs, but after downloading America's Army and seeing that, I erased the entire thing from my machine and will not play any game that requires PB.

Even Balance says PB's not spyware. Why would they say otherwise?

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said by CylonRed:

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said by aberrant:

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said by CylonRed:

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Their EULA is no different from any other software companies EULA...

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Actually, it is very different from other EULAs. Have you seen it?

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Yep - I read it - I have also read MS's and they are suspiciously similar. In fact MS got busted once for scanning hard drives for illegal software when a person went to the MS update site. It was ALL perfectly legal to do so. They supposedly stopped doing it after it got out (or so they said) but their EULA gives them the right to do so since it is their sofware and they reserve the right to make you pay for something you did not pay for.

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said by aberrant:

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said by CylonRed:

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said by aberrant:

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said by CylonRed:

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Their EULA is no different from any other software companies EULA...

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Actually, it is very different from other EULAs. Have you seen it?

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Yep - I read it - I have also read MS's and they are suspiciously similar. In fact MS got busted once for scanning hard drives for illegal software when a person went to the MS update site. It was ALL perfectly legal to do so. They supposedly stopped doing it after it got out (or so they said) but their EULA gives them the right to do so since it is their sofware and they reserve the right to make you pay for something you did not pay for.

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Unfortunately, the reality is that most folks must trust Microsoft more than they need to trust Even Balance. MS owns the operating system and can put any malware it wants into the OS. You're trusting them not to do it. If you don't trust them, then you shouldn't run the OS -- and that limits what you can do in a lot of cases.

(This assumes that you're correct in your analysis of the EULAs. I don't recall ever seeing a MS EULA say that they have the right to access any file on your machine at any time, but I could be wrong.)

PB is different, IMO. Why should I be forced (via agreement to the EULA) to trust a company to behave nicely with the contents of my system just to play a GAME? It's not worth it to me, and frankly, I can't see how it would be worth it to anyone who stores any sensitive data on his/her machine.

Now, you can argue that you extend that trust to any software you place on your machine. That's true. However, in my mind, there's a big difference between granting the explicit right to do something (via the EULA in PB's -- and possibly MS's -- case) and trusting that the product won't do anything malicious (which is the case with other software with less restrictive EULAs). It's a hard sell to say, "Well, I agreed to PB's terms but I never thought they'd grab my bank information!" but it's easy to say, "I never agreed to let product X access any of my files, and nowhere did they say they were going to grab my bank information." In one case, there's a disclaimer of liability for this particular purpose, and in the other, my guess is that the company would be sued out of existence pretty darn quickly.

Are you willing to sign confidentiality rights to your entire machine over a game? If so, running PB shouldn't be an issue for you. If you've got a problem with doing so, however, you should rethink your use of PB under the current EULA, and perhaps pressure them to specifically state what they're allowed to access, and under what circumstances they're allowed to access it.

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reply to aberrant
Do I even think PB would look at my files (other than to see the name of the file) NO - I don't. It would be FAR to costly for them to do this and FAR to easy to track it to them. They would lose their entire business if they did and hence a deterrnet in and of itself where MS has no such deterrent.

MS determines for you where you can install the OS, how many times, and on what media is acceptable as a backup (to have a backup of the OS disk) and this is just the tip of the iceberg for them...

Since I play AA I don't mind them - it is either that or the majority of the people would be playing with hacks and that is some thing I can do without. And the same could be said for all online games and face it - online games make game manufacturers money so they will pair up with companies that do this type of service.

If a company could come up with a way to spot cheats on a client.... They would make a ton and it is also pretty much impossible without scanning the hard drive for known file names.

Only other thing is to not buy or update the game. As I said before - if people didn't buy it the game manufacturers would get the hint pretty fast if enough do it. I highly doubt the majority of the gamers would do this and I for one would stop playing online games if there was no way to nail cheaters (since I do not do it myself).
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Brian
America's Army Forum Moderator and America's Army Beta Tester

said by :

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Dude, PB is great tool from stopping cheating monkeys. He got caught, that's what it have to do you get caught you get banned. So normal players don't have to put up with your hacking and enjoy the game. I runned PB since counter-strike 1.5 days. All my buddies run it. Whole lan party (50 computers) run it 24/7 for battle field and CS guess what noone got banned because no one cheated. If you don't want to install it play on non pb servers. Its NOT your right to play on PB servers YOU don't own any servers SERVER ADMINS choses what he wants to run. If you DON'T agree with that START YOUR OWN server and choose wtf you wan't to run on it. End of story. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Same bs with valves protection stupid kids cheat and when get busted they cry to valve and on forums how they NEVER NEVER hacked. Please we heard it all before and we are glad your banned less annoying hackers on servers.

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reply to CylonRed

said by CylonRed:

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Do I even think PB would look at my files (other than to see the name of the file) NO - I don't. It would be FAR to costly for them to do this and FAR to easy to track it to them. They would lose their entire business if they did and hence a deterrnet in and of itself where MS has no such deterrent.

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1) Yep - I accepted the EULA - nuff said.

2) PB doesn't need to be closed source for me to know. I run things so that there can only be one 2 or ways for anyone to get the info. I also do not store passwords to financial institutions on my PC, I do not have credit card numbers on my PC (or even SS#), and only part of my savings/checking account # is in Quicken - the rest would have to be guesses as well as my pin.

3) I have yet to find a problem with their hiring. It is something that I have to deal with daily in all aspects. The question can be extended to the following:

Do you trust your banks tellers?
Do you trust your banks proff encoding department (they help clear all checks)?
Do you trust your stock broker?
Do you trust your waiter/waitress?
Do you trust your utility companies (if you pay by CC or even check)?
Do you trust your store cashier?
Do you trust your online store?

I think anyone gets the idea - you are not in charge in ANY of the hiring in ANY of these instances and you have to have some trust to the same info - if not worse info like Debit card # (potentially more dangerous than knowing the CC #).
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Brian
America's Army Forum Moderator and America's Army Beta Tester

reply to aberrant

said by aberrant:

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said by :

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Dude, PB is great tool from stopping cheating monkeys. He got caught, that's what it have to do you get caught you get banned. So normal players don't have to put up with your hacking and enjoy the game. I runned PB since counter-strike 1.5 days. All my buddies run it. Whole lan party (50 computers) run it 24/7 for battle field and CS guess what noone got banned because no one cheated. If you don't want to install it play on non pb servers. Its NOT your right to play on PB servers YOU don't own any servers SERVER ADMINS choses what he wants to run. If you DON'T agree with that START YOUR OWN server and choose wtf you wan't to run on it. End of story. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Same bs with valves protection stupid kids cheat and when get busted they cry to valve and on forums how they NEVER NEVER hacked. Please we heard it all before and we are glad your banned less annoying hackers on servers.

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Nice rant. Did you even read what I was saying? Note: I've never been banned from any game because I refuse to install punkbuster in the first place due to their overbroad EULA. If it doesn't bother you that they have access to any of your files at any time, then go ahead and use it. Just as nobody's stopping me from NOT using it, nobody's stopping you from deciding the risk is worth it.

As soon as playing a game is more important than the loss of confidentiality on my system, I'll re-evaluate my decision not to allow PB on my machine.

In the meantime, I suggest you re-read what I posted, and you'll find that your previous post makes no sense as a reply to anything I wrote.

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You say that you play games for the mere enjoyment; however, this whole charade that you're embarking upon indicates that it's more than just pure entertainment value.

You said that EB needs to change their EULA. Did you stop to think that many company's EULA's contain the same (if not, similar) stipulations prior to using their product? So who are you planning on attacking next? Microsoft, perhaps?

One thing you fail to realize is that you ARE NOT an EB customer. Did you buy something from EB? I would have to say "NO". You purchased a product made available by EA. EA, along with many other respectable companies, simply integrated this FREE solution into their products. EB does NOT have to treat you fairly, as their aren't the ones DIRECTLY offering this FREE product. Now if EA treated you unjustly, which OBVIOUSLY was NOT the case, then I WOULD SUPPORT YOU whole-heartedly in your efforts. Once again, you ARE NOT an EB customer, but rather an EA customer.

said by Cig_R:

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You say that you play games for the mere enjoyment; however, this whole charade that you're embarking upon indicates that it's more than just pure entertainment value.

You said that EB needs to change their EULA. Did you stop to think that many company's EULA's contain the same (if not, similar) stipulations prior to using their product? So who are you planning on attacking next? Microsoft, perhaps?

One thing you fail to realize is that you ARE NOT an EB customer. Did you buy something from EB? I would have to say "NO". You purchased a product made available by EA. EA, along with many other respectable companies, simply integrated this FREE solution into their products. EB does NOT have to treat you fairly, as their aren't the ones DIRECTLY offering this FREE product. Now if EA treated you unjustly, which OBVIOUSLY was NOT the case, then I WOULD SUPPORT YOU whole-heartedly in your efforts. Once again, you ARE NOT an EB customer, but rather an EA customer.

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reply to Cig_R

said by Cig_R:

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One thing you fail to realize is that you ARE NOT an EB customer. Did you buy something from EB? I would have to say "NO". You purchased a product made available by EA. EA, along with many other respectable companies, simply integrated this FREE solution into their products. EB does NOT have to treat you fairly, as their aren't the ones DIRECTLY offering this FREE product.

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reply to CylonRed

said by CylonRed:

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1) Yep - I accepted the EULA - nuff said.

2) PB doesn't need to be closed source for me to know. I run things so that there can only be one 2 or ways for anyone to get the info. I also do not store passwords to financial institutions on my PC, I do not have credit card numbers on my PC (or even SS#), and only part of my savings/checking account # is in Quicken - the rest would have to be guesses as well as my pin.

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quote:

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3) I have yet to find a problem with their hiring. It is something that I have to deal with daily in all aspects. The question can be extended to the following:

Do you trust your banks tellers?
Do you trust your banks proff encoding department (they help clear all checks)?
Do you trust your stock broker?
Do you trust your waiter/waitress?
Do you trust your utility companies (if you pay by CC or even check)?
Do you trust your store cashier?
Do you trust your online store?

I think anyone gets the idea - you are not in charge in ANY of the hiring in ANY of these instances and you have to have some trust to the same info - if not worse info like Debit card # (potentially more dangerous than knowing the CC #).

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said by aberrant:

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said by CylonRed:

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1) Yep - I accepted the EULA - nuff said.

2) PB doesn't need to be closed source for me to know. I run things so that there can only be one 2 or ways for anyone to get the info. I also do not store passwords to financial institutions on my PC, I do not have credit card numbers on my PC (or even SS#), and only part of my savings/checking account # is in Quicken - the rest would have to be guesses as well as my pin.

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You don't have to store anything. They can grab screenshots too, remember? All they need to do is grab one while you're logged in, or use a box revealer when you're logging in.

quote:

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3) I have yet to find a problem with their hiring. It is something that I have to deal with daily in all aspects. The question can be extended to the following:

Do you trust your banks tellers?
Do you trust your banks proff encoding department (they help clear all checks)?
Do you trust your stock broker?
Do you trust your waiter/waitress?
Do you trust your utility companies (if you pay by CC or even check)?
Do you trust your store cashier?
Do you trust your online store?

I think anyone gets the idea - you are not in charge in ANY of the hiring in ANY of these instances and you have to have some trust to the same info - if not worse info like Debit card # (potentially more dangerous than knowing the CC #).

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These are different in that there are laws expressly prohibiting fraudulent transactions -- generally the case whenever money is involved. What isn't protected (at least in other states than CA at this point) is disclosure of personal (HIPAA aside for the moment) information by a private (nongovernmental) organization. THAT's the risk here.

For financial transactions, there's also generally a limit on consumer liability for fraud. However, what OTHER nonfinancial information about you is on your machine? Perhaps some medical history. Perhaps the names, ages, and pictures of your kids, along with your address and the address of their schools and names of their teachers. Couple this with a screenshot of your current bank statement, and you've got some pretty scary possibilities as far as ransoms go. And EB doesn't have to be directly involved if there's a malicious actor out there with access to PB. I'm certainly not insinuating that a company like EB would approve of, let alone be involved in, this sort of activity.

Couple PB with government pressure to obtain information on individuals and their ability to request information without a warrant in lots of cases, and you've now got the conspiracy nuts going bonkers (especially since there's a tie between the government and PB via America's Army). Could EB stand up to an FBI request to view files on gameplayers' systems? If AOL and public libraries can't do it, why would you think EB would fare any better?

I work in information security for a large financial institution, so I'm perhaps hypersensitive to these issues. But just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get me, using whatever tools are available -- and if they're tools that I expressly agreed to have used against me, so much the better for them.

And you have to think about all this just to play a game that's been ruined by cheaters. It's sad on so many levels.

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said by CylonRed:

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I do not see any reason for ANYTONE to have their entire life on the PC - from SS#'s to account numbers. If the govt wanted to spy on you they won't do it thru PB and they already can do that if they wanted. Fighting PB will DO NOTHING to avoid this - not in any way shape or form and it is fantasy to think it will.

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