 Karnog
join:2002-03-03
Westminster, CA
4 edits | Game copy protection installs hidden software! Game copy protection installs hidden software called "StarForce" on users computers, without concent.
»www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.···33763491
First we have Safedisc and the like black listing our legal software and hardware. I hated that with a passion, but it didn't do anything to my PC, other than stop the program it came with from working without me making changes or cracking it.
Now we have Starforce, which came with my new TocA -Race Driver 2 DVD. I was looking around my Device Manager while updating to the Cat 4.6 drivers and lookie what I found. It has actually installed drivers/controllers/whatever they are on my PC without my knowledge....all sneeky like too, in the hidden section.
EDIT: I have confirmed that, just like nasty spyware or a virus, these to not get uninstalled when you uninstall the game that put them there! They stay forever...causing who knows what kind of problems later on
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Well on the basis of this thread, the borg will have me, and they'll skip the IQ tests too! I should sign up! |
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 mrchrisOut and aroundPremium
join:2002-10-01
North Babylon, NY | What sneaky junk is installed with CAtalyst 4.6's? |
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Karnog
join:2002-03-03
Westminster, CA
1 edit | said by mrchris:
What sneaky junk is installed with CAtalyst 4.6's?
Nothing bad. It's the game that installed the StarForce software.
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Well on the basis of this thread, the borg will have me, and they'll skip the IQ tests too! I should sign up! |
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Karnog
join:2002-03-03
Westminster, CA | People reporting serious problems with this hidden software:
»www.adventurecompanygames.com/ta···&fpart=1
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Well on the basis of this thread, the borg will have me, and they'll skip the IQ tests too! I should sign up! |
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| reply to Karnog
Re: Game copy protection installs starforce software! Starforce is written by some Russian coders who have a very good understanding of low level undocumented techniques on Windows 2000/XP . I took a look at their driver because it also was installed with one of my games and they use some technology in it that we have developed for Process Guard (»www.diamondcs.com.au/processguard/) . The Starforce driver also incorporates encryption (very similar to EXE encrypting/packing), which is something I have never seen in another driver before (I developed something similar for Process Guard but ultimately decided against using it).
Process Guard uses very low level undocumented techniques, a lot more than Starforce, however I wasn't happy that the Starforce driver with it's abilities was put onto my system without any warning. At least with Process Guard you have the option to install it on your system AND we actively support and enhance the product whilst in communication with our customers. With Starforce you are stuck without support if there is anything wrong, their main goal isn't to get it to run on every machine, it is to stop people from cracking and copying games.
If you do a google search on Starforce you will find that they have released many patches to it, because of it's instability. Some people reported going to Windows Update or installing a Service Pack would mean they could no longer boot their machines until they removed Starforce manually.
The silly thing is this sort of protection is supposed to stop cracks and copying of games, however you can easily find cracks for every Starforce protected game. So in the end the only thing Starforce is doing is hurting legitimate customers who have to have it installed to use the software.
-Jason-
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DiamondCS (Est. 1986) - The Anti-Trojan Specialistshttp://www.diamondcs.com.au |
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Karnog
join:2002-03-03
Westminster, CA
1 edit | Re: Game copy protection installs starforce softwa Is it legal for them to install this shi* secretly, without informing the user?
Here is a program »www.users.on.net/~testeagles/Sta···lean.exe to get rid of StarForce, see it does noting to combat game crackers. Just causes instability to legit users IMO.
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Well on the basis of this thread, the borg will have me, and they'll skip the IQ tests too! I should sign up! |
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Karnog
join:2002-03-03
Westminster, CA | bump |
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| You probably agreed to it in the click through EULA, it would be good if someone could post the EULA for the game so we could see if it actually makes specific reference to installing copy protection services.
I seem remember a UT2003 (Or was it 2004?) demo installed a cdilla service which is another copy protection system.
I agree with the consensus that copy protection only hurts legit gamers. |
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4 edits | said by Doncommie:
I seem remember a UT2003 (Or was it 2004?) demo installed a cdilla service which is another copy protection system.
Nor UT 2004 nor UT2003 have used cdilla. Safedisc maybe. cdilla - or SafeCast - is the most loathed and hated - not without reason - copy protection on earth and game developers and publishers know it. Ask TurboTax users. What's that about writing to the boot sector of your HD? That to me is owning your HD.
Anyway, no matter what the EULA says, that stuff should be uninstalled when you uninstall the game - or the app it was bundled with -.
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From the GSV "Ethics Gradient" |
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1 edit | reply to Karnog
Re: Game copy protection installs hidden software! Which game did this come with, so I know to avoid it?
Never mind. I went back and re-read the original post. Mods, feel free to delete this post. |
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2 edits | reply to Doncommie
Re: Game copy protection installs starforce softwa said by Doncommie:
You probably agreed to it in the click through EULA, it would be good if someone could post the EULA for the game so we could see if it actually makes specific reference to installing copy protection services.
Except...Starforce does not get installed with the game, or during the game install. It installs the first time you run the game and pops up a box saying, "The application was installed sucessfully, reboot now?"...The application? It is a seperate, automatic install with no EULA or warning or option to abort. In my case I installed the game and rebooted on my own twice before running the game and this happened and forced yet another reboot. Right away I knew something was amiss.
The kicker: Also, after you uninstall the game (ToCa Race Driver 2) the Starforce "drivers" remain and are now a permanent part (read: hijacker) of your operating system. In fact if you manually remove them from the device manager (again, the game has been uninstalled already) they will reinstall themselves after a reboot or 2, just like a farging virus!
*** Clarification: I (spamatron) was the starter of the quoted thread. The game was ToCa - Race Driver 2, and the Cat 4.6 driver is fine, that is just what I was doing when I noticed the StarForce invasion from Race Driver 2. |
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 keith2468Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-03
Winnipeg, MB | reply to Karnog
hidden? but you can see it ;) You can see the component, so it isn't really hidden. If they'd wanted to hide it, they could have, or they could have given it the similar name to the original program.
Lots of packages have visible components made by other companies, for example Windows, Linux, Unix, VM, Office, ZoneAlarm, etc.
So shrinkwrapped software having visible parts made by other companies is no big deal.
And if you get into invisible components made by other companies, it is probably close to 100% of software.
Whether this is an ethical problem depends on what this other software is doing. Is it doing something to support the main product, or is it doing something entirely separate.
If all the other software is doing is protecting the main product, then that isn't be an issue. The only potential wrong-doing would be copyright violation, and that is what it is protecting against.
If it is quietly preventing you violating the copyrights of other unrelated software from other companies, that is maybe approaching the line.
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(Virus&Hijacking FAQ+Submit suspected malware+Security FAQ) |
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1 edit | said by keith2468:
If it is quietly preventing you violating the copyrights of other unrelated software from other companies, that is maybe approaching the line.
1. It hijacks and takes control over your default and rightful Windows drivers.
2. Reports are it has caused big problems with unrelated devices, like the guy who lost all his college work when the StarForce invasion blew out his USB external drive.
3. It installs secretly, and separately from the game.
4. It is not uninstalled with the game that put it there.
5. If you uninstall it manually, it reinstalls itself, like a virus and becomes a permanent part of your O/S running all the time to do who knows what and cause who knows what incompatibilities and errors with other copy protected game, software, devices or drivers.
6. I have read reports that I can not confirm, but strongly believe, that some versions of SafeDisc falsely identify the StarForce "driver" as a virtual device driver which is blacklisted by SafeDisc. The result is the other SafeDisc game fails to run because of it's conflicting copy protection scheme. What are the odds that your average user is going to be able to track that down? All you here is, "My game won't run. Says I have virtual software and I don't!" |
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| reply to Karnog
Re: Game copy protection installs hidden software! Nice job finding this hidden payload.
Spread the word to other forums. I think the more outcry there is, the less likely other publishers are inclined to use it. |
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| reply to keith2468
Re: hidden? but you can see it ;) The 2 biggest potential issues I have with applications are:
1. There appears to be nothing in the EULA that specifically mentions it. Not a big deal unless it acts separate from the original game.
2. it does not uninstall when you uninstall the original game. This is a BIG problem for me since it means whatever this software is doing would continue if I didn't know about it from this thread.
That qualifies as "invasive" and almost spyware / malware in my book. |
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davePremium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:7 Reviews:
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1 edit | reply to Karnog
Re: Game copy protection installs hidden software! said by Karnog:
all sneeky like too, in the hidden section.
Not sneaky at all. Device Manager does not, by default, show 'virtual devices' that have no directly owned hardware (that's sort of vague, I know, but I can't characterize it better).
Note that even the vga device is 'hidden'. Sneaky, huh?
There's nothing a driver writer can do to prevent Device Manager from calling a device 'hidden' even if he wanted to.
There's nothing like the word 'hidden' to make one start worrying about the black helicopters... |
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 ctripIslam is a Religion of PeacePremium
join:2002-07-16
New Cumberland, PA
 ·Comcast
| reply to keith2468
Re: hidden? but you can see it ;) said by keith2468:
You can see the component, so it isn't really hidden.
I think what he meant by "hidden" is that under DEVICE MANAGER, they do not show up under the default view. You must 1st click SHOW HIDDEN DEVICES, to even see them. And also, if I understand correctly, there is no ADD/REMOVE SOFTWARE entry to allow you to uninstall it. |
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davePremium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:7 Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to Sniper3142
said by Sniper3142:
2. it does not uninstall when you uninstall the original game. This is a BIG problem for me since it means whatever this software is doing would continue if I didn't know about it from this thread.
What do you mean by 'uninstall'? A lot hinges on that.
If you mean, there's a hidden entry in the device tree, then big whoop. On some of my systems, there are traces of device drivers I wrote a couple of years ago which I happen to know no longer exist anywhere in the known universe. Nevertheless, the ghost of drivers past still haunts Device Manager.
Once again, there's nothing that I'm aware of that a driver writer can possibly do to affect that.
Of course, it is entirely possible that there is a fully functioning device deliberately left on your system. But no evidence thus produced demostrates whether that's true or not. A node in Device Manager does not mean the driver still exists. |
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| Dave, the device driver stays behind - users reported problems using their USB devices long after they uninstalled the game. StarForce's excuse is that the publisher "chose" to leave it behind and not uninstall it (this by the way confirms that it is being left behind).
Secondly, I don't care if it's just a node in Device Manager - the publisher should always return the computer to the same state they found it in after uninstall is done. I'm a software developer myself, so don't try your BS on me. Sure, a lot of programs leave orphaned Registry entries behind anyway, and that is bad too. This is beyond bad.
Thirdly, regardless of the utility of this device driver it is stupid to expect that a driver using "undocumented" (read, likely to be broken in future by Microsoft) functionality of Windows should be relied upon in commercial software. If you can't do it with documented APIs then don't do it at all, unless you're creating something that only you will use and be exposed to.
Finally, installing device drivers to protect software from piracy is a serious breach of trust and complete overreaction. I think even using a USB dongle would be better, since you can at least remove it as needed. Despite the fact that this software caused damage to people, just imagine what will happen when a competing software company puts out their "protection driver", that starts competing with the first driver for disk and CPU access. By the time you reach 10 of these little critters on your computer you'll be ready to lose your sanity on the account of your computer performance and stability.
And what did they gain in the end? Well, the ability to piss off legit customers. Apparently, cracks for all StarForce protected games were available within days. Yeah, you did well StarForce - superb protection! |
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davePremium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:7 Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
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| said by StanRad:
Secondly, I don't care if it's just a node in Device Manager - the publisher should always return the computer to the same state they found it in after uninstall is done. I'm a software developer myself, so don't try your BS on me. Sure, a lot of programs leave orphaned Registry entries behind anyway, and that is bad too. This is beyond bad.
OK, please point to the procedure for doing this. It is Beyond Bad to write application code that goes screwing around with registry keys that do not belong to the application - that's the fastest way to system screwups there is.
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If the driver stays behind, then I agree it's bad.
But no-one actually really said that they found the drivers remaining - they just pointed at some Device Manager node, which is only somewhat related. And they also read bad intent into the word 'hidden', which is just a Device Manager classification of the driver beyond the driver-writer's control. These two things suggested a lot of fuss about the wrong symptoms.
I repeat, failure to remove the driver is bad. |
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