sadowski
I Am My Own Doppelganger
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-14
Buffalo, NY
clubs:
|  reply to justin
Re: Verizon's is actually the more-sensible approach
I don't want my ISP filtering anything. If I want to run my own servers then I should be able to. If I want talk to any other server I should be able to. If UCE and Bulk mail is a blight, then the spammers should be dealt with legaly on the level of their businesses, as well as servers set for customer (authorized) use only. I don't want an ISP deciding what is a "blight" such as adult content, political discussion, or even spam. Not to mention that we ALL KNOW that money will buy exceptions to all this filtering.
It's the ultimate hypocrisy to say that filtering (effective or otherwise) of what I don't like (spam) is OK but otherwise it's not.
I'm truly sick of hearing how ISPs should be turned into Internet police. The ISP should do nothing but provide connectivity and basic services to customers. If it doesn't want to provide basic services, such as mail and news, then it should not block those service either.
I suggest any of you really wanting such a bland and safe Internet stick to watching commercial television where you can be as safe and ignorant of anything potentialy offensive as you like. |
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justin
Australian
join:1999-05-28
Brooklyn, NY
Host:
IPv6
Business Connectiv..
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| ISPs all have subscriber agreements than clearly set out the penalties for sending out unsolicited email. They are obliged to enforce those penalties.. if they can't and won't enforce them, it would be a PR nightmare for them as a company, and subsequently a serious legal problem, as spammers (and criminal activity) flocked to the ISP that just provided an IP and didn't care what you use it for.
the discussion has gone off topic though - Verizon is trying to stop spam in a technically naive way.. that both hinders those with legitmate needs for their own domain name, yet does little to stop spam originating from their network. |
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htin11
join:2000-08-10
Flushing, NY
| reply to sadowski
actually read your TOS and your agreement, if the agreement say you can't run a server, then you can't do anything bout it...cuz it says DO NOT run a server...same thing with my road runner TOS. Thus you agreed upon not to run a server with the ISP...when you sign the contract or when you pay them. It all depend on the ISP...you choosed their services hence you are obligated by their runs...you don't have to pay them if you don't like their ways...as they say, go somewhere if you don't like what they offer. |
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sadowski
I Am My Own Doppelganger
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-14
Buffalo, NY
clubs: | said by htin11:
as they say, go somewhere if you don't like what they offer.
Bring back slavery too then, eh? |
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Network Guy
join:2000-08-25
New York | reply to justin
Amen. |
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sadowski
I Am My Own Doppelganger
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-14
Buffalo, NY
clubs:
| reply to justin
said by justin:
ISPs all have subscriber agreements
That's not the same as blocking service access. If the ISP doesn't want to enforce its rules it should either not make them or it should suffer the consequences of not enforcing them. Blocking services is not a reasoned response to laziness or ineptitude.
quote:
the discussion has gone off topic though
I don't think so. This is where these types of actions take us. What ISPs do have consequences and set trends too. These issues need to be addressed. |
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rchandra
Stargate S G-1 And Atlantis Fan
Premium
join:2000-11-09
14225-2105
clubs:
| reply to sadowski
I think you pretty much have this right, with an exception or two. I think traffic that has no business on the Internet (e.g., with an RFC1918 source IP address) should be filtered out. In this sense, ISPs have to cooperate to become the Internet police.
As far as VZ providing services...they do provide mail, and they hope that their pending change will win them more customers than they will lose. They appear to be playing the open market here. If you and I (both Buffalo VZ subscribers) don't like their new SMTP policy, we can subscribe to Telerama for example instead. I don't know of any out there, but there could be other hosting companies that would be willing to accept your mail, and if VZ start mangling tcp/25, also provide a VPN service so you can get at their [E]SMTP servers.
I don't get the analogy to commercial TV. There is plenty on commercial TV that could be deemed offensive. The alternative would be PBS I'm guessing? If anything, I'd think that'd be more sanitized/cleaned than commercial TV. Also, if by "commercial TV" you would be willing to include satellite/cable programs, I can think of a certain popular Comedy Central program that a lot of people think is quite objectionable (but I personally usually find hilarious).
(edit was to add anchor/link to RFC1918)
[text was edited by author 2001-07-03 11:20:58] |
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sadowski
I Am My Own Doppelganger
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-14
Buffalo, NY
clubs:
| said by rchandra:
I think traffic that has no business on the Internet (e.g., with an RFC1918 source IP address) should be filtered out.
Private addresses, I think? I have no problem with that. I have no problem with any filtering done on technical grounds, if it pertains to the actual technical limits of the network (vs. too many users using porn sites so we block them because it wastes our bandwidth - a psuedo-technical argument).
quote:
As far as VZ providing services...they do provide mail,
There is also language on their website that suggests that they are not contractualy obligated to do so. I posted it in the Verizon forum a while back. (I'm not, however, suggestting that they are planning to pull mail service or charge extra for.) quote:
If you and I (both Buffalo VZ subscribers) don't like their new SMTP policy, we can subscribe to Telerama for example instead.
But that's just more of that go back where you came from kind of thing. It doesn't address the approriateness of this kind of action. quote:
I don't get the analogy to commercial TV. There is plenty on commercial TV that could be deemed offensive. The alternative would be PBS I'm guessing?
PBS has become very safe and very commercial oriented (in the sense that it has started pandering toward mass audience to facilitate donations). If you're old enough to remeber PBS in the seventies they were doing and showing original drama of substance, controversial political/social programs and science programming that had substance (not like what poor Nova has become now, or since they stopped buying Horizons and replacing the narration track with an American voice). So, no, I don't see PBS as much of an alternative anymore.  quote:
If anything, I'd think that'd be more sanitized/cleaned than commercial TV. Also, if by "commercial TV" you would be willing to include satellite/cable programs, I can think of a certain popular Comedy Central program that a lot of people think is quite objectionable (but I personally usually find hilarious).
OK, my laziness. The commercial broadcast networks in which all is sanitized and made pallitable to some oddball marketers sensibility (or their distorted view of 'our' sensibilities) and where everything is faked and controlled for and by marketting. I think show title "Everyone Loves Raymond" represents a lot TV marketing's mentality.
Other than South Park and some of the old Sunday animation block (the transplated Duckman, Bob & Margaret, Dr. Katz) I don't know CC that well, but it is owned by MTV (isn't it?) which would make it an interesting study since MTV and the MTV Networks are pure marketing. |
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rchandra
Stargate S G-1 And Atlantis Fan
Premium
join:2000-11-09
14225-2105
clubs:
| said by sadowski:
(I'm not, however, suggestting that they are planning to pull mail service or charge extra for.)
As long as they leave my outbound TCP port 25 alone, that suits me (and I'm guessing you) just fine. 
said by sadowski:
quote:
If you and I (both Buffalo VZ subscribers) don't like their new SMTP policy, we can subscribe to Telerama for example instead.
But that's just more of that go back where you came from kind of thing. It doesn't address the approriateness of this kind of action.
Maybe not directly, but indirectly it does. If/when it works, the market can be a very powerful force indeed.
said by sadowski:
PBS has become very safe and very commercial oriented (in the sense that it has started pandering toward mass audience to facilitate donations). If you're old enough to remeber PBS in the seventies they were doing and showing original drama of substance, controversial political/social programs and science programming that had substance (not like what poor Nova has become now, or since they stopped buying Horizons and replacing the narration track with an American voice).
Nope, I wasn't too much of a PBS watcher back then. In the late sixties and early seventies, I was a "Sesame Street" and "Electric Company" viewer (born 7-Sep-1965).
said by sadowski:
quote:
I can think of a certain popular Comedy Central program that a lot of people think is quite objectionable (but I personally usually find hilarious).
I think show title "Everyone Loves Raymond" represents a lot TV marketing's mentality.
definitely.
said by sadowski:
Other than South Park...
That's the one! Come to think of it, "The Man Show" would probably be pretty disgusting to many, but I don't watch that much...only the part that's on after something else I watch (used to be on after "South Park").
BTW...I have to chuckle just about every time I pass by Southpark Ave., because almost every time, that theme starts running through my head.
--
Benjamin Franklin: Those who sacrifice freedom for a sense of security deserve neither. |
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sadowski
I Am My Own Doppelganger
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-14
Buffalo, NY
clubs:
| said by rchandra:
As long as they leave my outbound TCP port 25 alone, that suits me (and I'm guessing you) just fine.
Yeah, you and I will be fine but I am disturbed by what could be a trend. I don't know if you are familiar with the old ServTech out of Rochester (now owned by Verio) but they did their best to provide a good networking experience to even dialup users because they were a network supplier (till places like Kodak and others decided they could handle it on their own). Larger ISPs like AOL, MSN, Earthlink, Verizon, etc. have the power to really change the network experience by restricting services which most people will just live with because they don't know better or feel they can't do anything about. The ISPs can, or do have the power to make the expereince as bland as tv, as safe as tv or as simplified as USA Today. To me, the danger is in a gradual deterioration of the experience by picking away at small bits. (Shrug) That's what it's all about to me. quote:
Maybe not directly, but indirectly it does. If/when it works, the market can be a very powerful force indeed.
My problem with that is that the masses don't always know. The Internet now, and eventualy networking generaly, is being marketed to the masses and they are not knowledgable enough or experienced enough to truly judge. Everybody's first car was great because they just didn't know better. quote:
(born 7-Sep-1965).
You're just a kid! (5-12-56)
quote:
That's the one! Come to think of it, "The Man Show" would probably be pretty disgusting to many, but I don't watch that much...only the part that's on after something else I watch (used to be on after "South Park").
I prefer a good porn film.
quote:
BTW...I have to chuckle just about every time I pass by Southpark Ave., because almost every time, that theme starts running through my head.
For a number reasons, I cancelled my cable tv service and I shall miss SP (though I hear the full episodes are available on the network ) |
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